Talk:Animal magnetism

A plea for removal of redirection

Please can the redirection from "mesmerism" be removed.

Even in the context of the current form of this article here, I can see no sense or rationale at all for the redirection. As an aside there is a worrying tendency in wikipedia to merge and redirect articles. Cross referencing is usually all that is required. Ths article is called Animal Magentism and yet the majority of it is concerned with discussing mesmerism from a negative standpoint. This is absurd.

Secondly there is no poasitive rationale for the redirection. In my case for instance I want to find out about mesmerism and not necessarily about animal magnetism. I first researched Mesmer about 40 years ago and wanted to refresh my memory using wikipedia. Now though, I have had to go to Mesmer's page, which should be about him as a person rather than about his theories, find what external links I can and go there. Even if I do build up my knowledge on the subject there is no longer anywhere on wikipedia where I can contribute this! Surely this defeats the very core aim of it.

Mesmerism may or may not be associated, or even a part of a field under the label Animal Magentism, but these considerations are irrelevant. The only valid reason I can see for redirection/amalgamation is if something does not merit an independent entry. Everything that is written in this article here supports the fact that it does merit a separate entry. I can think of two heavyweight reasons for this. The first is because of the influence of the idea on our thinking about the origins of hypnosis and the controversy that surrounds it. This is acknowledged throught the Animal Magnetism article. Secondly Mesmerism is something that in Wikipedia's own guidelines should have a separate article. Having a separate entry would also remove the need for those sections of this article here that seem to be merely concerned with stating that Mesmerism is not what Animal Magentism is about!

Please allow each reader their own reasons for being interested in Mesmerism and respect the fact that they neither need nor welcome the benign and paternalistc censorhip of wiki in the mergeing.

LookingGlass (talk) 13:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Animal magnetism exists

There is such a thing as animal magnetism beyond what is stated in this Wikipedia. I have experienced it. There is an invisible energy that flows between you and the other person that you are very attracted to and they are attracted to you. The energy is very very strong physical thing that you actually feel emanating from the other person and flowing back to them just like a circuit. You can even determine the person is in the same area even though they are somewhere behind you even if you are not looking at them or if you don't see them. It is an experience that is bordering on the occult in the sense that no one seems to be able to explain it, but before the scientific community writes this off to mere nonsense, they need to do more research. There is something to this. Other experiences similar to this are feeling as one with someone, or an experience I had in practicing Scientology wherein I and the twin I partnered with in a communication course actually felt the energy wave of the thought that I sent to them while communicating to them. The thought had an effect that the exercise was intended to result in.

There is a lot more to this than meets the eye. Just as we can't see electricity or magnetism, there is something going on. Research is needed.

We all feel a special connection to the people we love (well, so I hope!). It's not an unusual experience to feel drawn, as if by magnetism, toward a person you love. It's in your head, man. Or your heart, if you prefer. It's a feeling-- don't build it up (or, if you like, degrade it) by inventing some mysterious energy field that must be behind it. Love is weird and complicated enough.

As for using your attraction to someone to detect her, I'm dubious. It's possible to recognize a loved one from very few clues, including subliminal cues. Call it intutition, there's no need to go further than that. People can't sense each others' presence without actually *sensing* them; if there were a "sixth sense" for detecting our lovers' presence, it would be obvious to everyone and well-known in all cultures (as are the other senses). Silarius 02:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That reasoning seems flawed. For example, there could exist a sixth sense which is only accessible in altered states of consciousness when input from the other senses is turned down. Most ancient/rural cultures *do* believe in some kind of "spirit" reality which can be directly sensed, perhaps because they routinely access altered states through hypnotic music, dance, psychedelic plants etc; while in modern/urban culture the combination of an educational system which promotes linguistic thought at the expense of sensitivity to feeling, and the near-constant barrage of primary sensory input, may conspire to make most people unaware of their sixth sense. Not saying I believe this but it's one possible explanation, among others. ----Ben

I think that the first person's viewpoint should be included in the article. Smith Jones 01:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, Wikipedia isn't meant for opinions. ----Ben

Where does it say that in the ruelbook? Smith Jones 04:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Right here. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. This includes anonymous opinions about animal magnetism. Encyclopedic content needs to be verifiable and come from a reputable source. Twelvethirteen 17:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is for facts and unbiased objective information. I work a lot with animal magnetism (although I didn't know that term for it before) so I definitely know what it is and added content about how it relates to science. Someone went ahead and removed all content from several contributors that were related to spirituality. My guest is that he's skeptic about spiritual ideas. Please, if you don't know what animal magnetism is, don't remove content! -- Etiennecharland 17:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it funny (and more than a little bit sad) how the community of rational people, in the interest of open-mindedness and in trying to engage, in the most honest manner possible, all the different beliefs and modalities of thought, has let itself get cornered into having to constantly apologise not only for the obvious (and inevitable) incompatibilities between the rational world-view and all the assorted so-called 'alternative' viewpoints, but even for the multiple inconsistencies between different 'tastes' from the lunacy menu? Rational people, in trying to be 'cool' with everyone, have been left in the position of the dorky kid that noone cares about and who has to dodge all manner of bullies, all the while getting pummeled even as those bullies battle each other. I say, fuck the bullies, bring back the Inquisition and drop all these loons into the fire where they belong!

Indescriptive

This page doesn't really describe Mesmer's theory in any meaningful way, and is rather light on other details. Suggest either merging with Franz Mesmer or pulling the explanation from that page here and expanding it? Advantage of keeping a separate page is that the phrase Animal Magnetism is in widespread use, but usually *not* referring to Mesmer's theory. This alternate meaning ought to be given more prominence.

I agree; in fact, I found this article pretty useless. This page seems to address "mesmerism", not the common colloquial usage of "animal magnetism". But the article doesn't say what that *is* at all. It mostly discusses some the two terms, and gives a few other circumstantial details. Could someone who has some idea of what this actually is please update the article to explain?

I also agree. The first paragraph doesn't explain the phrase at all. There is no clear "animal magnetism is <fill in the blank>. The first sentence: Animal magnetism is a term proposed by Franz Mesmer in the 18th century. It would be far better if the first sentence stated what the term actually means, instead of just explaining the history of the term (although it could certainly do both). 173.172.70.38 (talk) 11:39, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Theodore Lèger or Theodore Léger?

Although it seems that, according to 2007 French conventions, this man's family name ought to be written as Léger it clearly appears on the title page of the book Animal Magnetism: Or, Psycodunamy as Lèger.

To complicate matters even further, at various places in the book -- such as the copyright notice on the reverse of the title page -- his name appears as Leger with neither accent grave nor accent acute. His name also appears at other places (e.g., p.395) as Léger.

Therefore, until someone with greater specific knowledge than myself about this solitary individual, and the way that he chose to spell his own family name, can take a definite position on this matter, I have reverted the spelling to match that of the book's title page (Lèger) -- based on the simple assumption that (a) the man himself, having written the book, had certainly received a certain amount of education, (b) the man himself would certainly know how his family had told him to spell his name, and (c) he would most certainly ensure that his name was correct on a title page.Lindsay658 21:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have located a significant, pertinent and reliable authority to resolve the mess referred to above: Alan Gauld's A History of Hypnotism, Cambridge University Press, 1992, p.184.

Gauld specifically identifies the author as Dr. Théodore Léger (1799—1853), a pupil of J.P.F. Deleuze (1753-1835). I have adjusted the text of the article accordingly.Lindsay658 00:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Two types of magnetism?

"Mesmer chose his term to clearly distinguish his variant of magnetic force from those which were referred to, at that time, as mineral magnetism, cosmic magnetism and planetary magnetisms."

Didn't he use magnets at least in his early therapeutic attempts? That would indicate that he didn't seek to distinguish between animal and mineral magnetism. Maikel (talk) 10:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Mesmerism and British Romanticism

The science of mesmerism emerged roughly at the end of the Age of Enlightenment and the very early beginnings of Romanticism. Originally introduced by Franz Anton Mesmer, the emergence of mesmerism during this time significantly influenced British social, political, and cultural thought. This influence is reflected in literature and lectures produced by writers, philosophers, and politicians during this time. The excitement created by this early influence of mesmerism eventually led to a deeper Victorian era fascination with the ideas of mesmerism. Mesmerism also fueled practices such as magnetism and hypnosis.

Mesmerism was introduced and practiced in France before it made its way over the English Channel. The negative reception by the French elite and discrediting of Mesmer by a committee created by the King in France led to a shaky, uncertain reception in Britain. However, its continued practice and development by others such as Marques of Puysegur into hypnotism and somnambulistic states of being caused mesmerism to receive as much criticism as well as popularity in Britain. This mixed reception in Britain can be attributed by the changes and concerns of the time period including the conflict between factual science and mesmerism as a study of pseudo-science and well as the rise of consumerism.

Socially and culturally, mesmerism was first received, popularized and debated among elite, intellectual circles. Ironically, the practice of mesmerism was also often deemed a theatrical falsity or “quackery” by elitists and the upper class. Why mesmerism was given so much attention can probably be attributed to the questions and concerns that it raised. Intellectuals wondered about the implications of mesmerism and how it could impact philosophical, political and social thought. Mesmerism and hypnosis were practices that involved unseen powers but were a popularized by the belief that they worked and were seen to have worked. What made mesmerism such a widely spread topic was because although it was a direct challenge to science and tangible objects, it was also fueled by its relation to the growing science of electricity and magnetism .

Politically, mesmerism was used as an explanation for a confusing time frame involving not only a resistance to enlightened thought but also a period fraught with war and conflict, including the French Revolution. The French revolution created a lot of internal political friction in Britain among those who supported the revolution and those who opposed it. James Tilly Matthews was among one of many Britons who strongly believed that mesmerism would be the cause of the government’s eventual downfall. Jailed by the Jacobins in 1793, he was released in 1796 and returned to Britain where he believed Britain had been invaded by “magnetic spies.” These spies included Prime Minister Pitt, who Matthews believed were responsible for mesmerizing the people into passive citizens into puppets . Likewise, political individuals and those in government positions who faced the daunting task of maintaining a stable country in the midst of warfare and political strife, also used mesmerism as an explanation for the behavior of political dissenters and radicals like Matthews. From their point of view, radicals and political dissenters were attempting to mesmerize those around them to become politically disruptive in a state that was trying to respond to all the occurring changes. Mesmerism thus became a politically threatening tool because it was believed that it could be used to bend the will of individuals.

Mesmerism also produced enthusiasm as well as inspired horror in the spiritual and religious context. Though discredited as a credible medical practice, mesmerism nonetheless created a venue for spiritual healing. Some animal magnetists and hypnotists advertised their practices by stressing the “spiritual rather than the physical benefits to be gained from animal magnetism” and were able to gather a good clientele from among the spiritually inspired population. The Marques of Pursegur’s miraculous act of hypnotism in 1784 brought about questions and wonders involving the human soul. The Marques of Pursegur was able to hypnotize a sick young man named Victor and while hypnotized, Victor was said to have been able to speak articulately, and diagnose his own sickness. This “magnetic sleep revealed the potential dwelling in everyone but realized only by a few.”

Mesmerism as a medical practice was popularized among the lower classes precisely because they had access to a form of healing that was not controlled by authorities. Potential sexual exploitation of women by men who performed mesmeric healing also contributed to the criticism. Part of this criticism stem from the fact that mesmerism became so theatre-like. It was also hard to distinguish between doctors who had attended medical school and were fully knowledgeable and those who just bought their degrees.

Within the literary world, mesmerism, animal magnetism, hypnosis and the somnambulistic state were all aspects of the straddle between the reasoned enlightenment age and the romantic era. Mesmerism became a huge impact on many romantic writers, one of the most notable being Samuel Tayler Coleridge. His poems often dealt with topics relating to mesmerism and dreams. A few of these poems include Kubla Khan and Rime of the Ancient Mariner. In the note that comes before the poem Kubla Khan, Coleridge writes about an experience in which he compose hundreds of lines by memory but loses all memory of those lines upon interruption by a visitor. Although there are many disputed explanations including drug use by Coleridge to explain this strange experience; mesmerism, as it was a fascination and a devoted area of study by Coleridge, is arguably a likely explanation of his experience. In the poem the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, mesmerism can arguably be applied to the fate of both the mariner and the wedding guest. The mariner and his fellow sailors become mesmerized after he shoots the albatross. Once saved, the mariner must tell his story to whoever will listen and he is able to get the wedding guest to listen to his story by mesmerizing him. Mesmerism also brought about questions about the horrors of scientific advancement. Mesmer’s animal magnetism and the studies of electric current through which life can be controlled may be contributors to the writing so of Mary Shelley (Frankenstein) and John Keats.

References

• Fulford, Tim. Conducting the Vital Fluid: The Politics and Poetics in the 1790s. Studies in Romanticism 43.1 (2004): 57-78. Humanities Hwwhilson. Web. 1 Feb 2010.
• Wilson, Eric G. Matter and Spirit in the Age of Animal Magnetism. Philosophy and Literature 30.2 (2006): 329-345. Project Muse Standard Collection. Web. 1 Feb 2010.
• Porter, Roy. Under the Influence' Mesmerism in England. History Today 35.9 (1985): 22-29. EBSCO Host Humanities International. Web. 3 Feb 2010.
• Gigante, Denise. The Monster in the Rainbow: Keats and the Science of Life. PMLA 117.3 (2002): 433-448. JSTOR. Web. 8 Feb 2010.
• Ford, Jennifer. Samuel Taylor Coleridge and the Pains of Sleep. History Workshop Journal no.48 (1999): 169-186. JSTOR. 7 Feb 2010.
• Mancini, Silvia. Animal Magnetism and Psychic Sciences, 1784-1935: The Rediscovery of a Lost Continent. Diogems 48.2 (2000): 94. EBSCOhost Academic Search Premier. Web.
• Fara, Patricia. An Attractive Therapy: Animal Magnetism in Eighteenth-Century England. History of Sciene 33 (1995): 127-177. Astrophysics Data System. Web. 3 Feb 2010.

Kibzx (talk) 00:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistency

There is an inconsistency in regards with the Franz Mesmer article. On the issue of the Royal Investigation, the investigation was not directed to validated or contradict the cures only the existence of the new "fluid"/method, and they found no evidence of that. There was no expressed verification or conclusion if in fact it was or not charlatanry (that we today know it probably wasn't, doesn't alter the fact that this was not verified at the time), it also creates inconstancy with the move out of Paris. --79.168.10.241 (talk) 02:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Separating Animal Magnetism and Mesmerism

This page says a lot about what animal magnetism is not but it doesn't talk much about what it is and how it works.

Also, it only talks about Mesmerism work. It would be good to put more modern info about animal magnetism. Mesmer applied animal magnetism in a certain way, but animal magnetism is a broader topic that isn't limited to Mesmer's work. Etiennecharland (talk) 23:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Royal Commission

"Whilst the Commission agreed that the cures claimed by Mesmer were indeed cures, the commission also concluded there was no evidence of the existence of his magnetic fluid, and that its effects derived from either the imaginations of its subjects or through charlatanry.[3]"

This is not only unsourced, the citation (to a note) is misleading, as it gives the impression it is. If anyone has a citation for this, please add it. JJJJS (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

ETA: I found a translation here: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-09-22/#feature, I'll check out it's suitability and add citations. JJJJS (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Link about spiritual aspect of animal magnetism

I would propose adding an external link about the spiritual and energy aspect of animal magnetism.

http://www.shamanicattraction.com/what-is-animal-magnetism.aspx

According to the guidelines, this is a link "to be considered": Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.

The information provided in that page are much more detailed that what is on the Wikipedia article but may be too controversial to be part of the Wikipedia article itself. The spiritual aspect of animal magnetism would be best covered through an external reference. Mdavid9 (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Dubious claim

I have removed the following dubious claim from the article, pending clarification of the volume number, page number and exact text in Lattanzi to which it is sourced:

In France and in Italy these practices have been progressively considered by the jurisprudence as admitted practices which are performed also by non doctors in that they are based on individual abilities which cannot be otherwise categorized. In Italy see the cases of Andalini and Racanelli, in France the case of Alalouf. In certain cases medical coordination is requested or suggested.

Lattanzi - Codice penale. Rassegna di giurisprudenza e di dottrina - ISBN 9788814159220

The text may prove me wrong, but it strikes me as highly unlikely that Lattanzi would have considered French law since the book is about Italian law. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Mesmerism or Animal Magnetism or Hanbledzoin and G.I. Gurdjieff

One of the most interesting (and also intensely criticized) advocates of "higher consciousness (called by various names) was G.I. Gurdjieff (1866(?)-1949). In his trilogy "All and Everything" (First series published 1950) Gurdjieff devotes devotes not insubstantial description of "hypnotism" "animal magnetism" "Mesmer and Mesmerism", Braid, and what he calls "Hanbledzoin"-presumably a neologism describing (approximately) the same category of phenomena, force, (etc.) that Mesmer had described; although Gurdjieff maintains that the knowledge regarding the phenomenon (and the force or substance or (?)) was known to ancient people back to what he calls the "Tikliamishian" era (predating Babylonian era by 'many centuries'. Gurdjieff goes on to explain various aspects of "hanbledzoin" or animal magnetism, ways to induce the "hypnotic state" (as meant by people like Mesmer), although Gurdjieff maintains that 'modern man' lives most of his/her life in a different kind of "hypnotic state" which we presently call our 'waking consciousness', equating this 'waking sleeping state' in many ways with what we call "sleep". That is a somewhat different subject than the "hypnotic state" brought about intentionally by 'animal magnetism' or "Hanbledzoin". It presumes, first of all, that the person administering this kind of hypnosis has developed his/her self to a state of consciousness or "degree of reason" in which the person actually HAS and CAN CONTROL this 'magnetism' and direct its force in relation to others, for curing diseases among other 'paranormal' phenomena. He also maintains that Mesmer, in particular, was someone who had "re-discovered" some of the lost knowledge (of this subject)and was a 'scientist' of a high order. However, as his success in helping people became well known, Gurdjieff maintains that his discoveries and himself were --as it were, "Pecked to death" by men of inferior knowledge surrounding him. This seems to accord with the substance in the main article, wherein Mesmer was discredited in his own time. When reading the works of G. Gurdjieff, one must be very careful, however, since he writes on many levels from the apparently literal, to "allegorical", "parable", "hyperbole", and apparently completely absurd and unbelievable. So a person studying about "hypnotism" in the works of G.Gurdjieff may not find much satisfaction in his specific explanations, nor his writings in their entirety, without years of study and relevant "work on oneself", which subject is out of the realm of this specific subject (Mesmerism) but likely related to it. Mike Beigel (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2013 (UTC) <G.I.Gurdjieff, "All and Everything, First Series" FIRST EDITION PUBLISHED IN 1950 by E.P.Dutton Inc. (Not the 1992 revised edition, though that edition may say nominally the same or similar things about the subject) Mike Beigel (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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