Talk:George Washington

An event in this article is an April 30 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

• Talk:George Washington/Archive 1 includes the following sections: Disconnect of GW's Wealth, Repairs undone>, First President and "under the Constitution" issues, Religious beliefs, Odd stories, Father of his/the/our Country, Honored Americans, Birth date, Washington's poet friend?, Birthplace, Final Rank, Wig/powdering, Military Rank, Category Scottish-American, Cut 'n paste editing, Sources in this article, Federalist?, Reentering the military?, Can we add some Washington trivia?, I changed part of the introduction to religious views., His Bible, George Washington Farewell address..., Recent shortenings of article, Farewell Address, Unanimous?, Innoculation.

• Talk:George Washington/Archive 2 includes: Opening Lines, "Personal Information" section, Presidency section, Personal qualities, Major presidential acts, Section inaccuracies, Trivia, French and Indian War, "Humane" to slaves, Two Technical Questions, extended semi-protection, Personal Wealth, Farewell address, Lead portrait, Factoid vault, Washington and Slavery, Washington's Swearing, Indian views of Washington, Changing the Revolutionary Army

If any discussion from these topics has not been finished, feel free to bring the thread back to this page.

Delete religious beliefs?

I deleted the "A Christian or not a Christian" section. If anyone wishes to read the insanity that was that discussion (partly my fault), click here. It took up 21 kilobytes on this page! Anyway, the real discussion that should be had is whether to keep the religious beliefs section. I am FOR deleting it. Since Washington never stated his religious beliefs (reluctant to do so apparently) and since his output on religion is limited to religious pluralism (though that famous letter is said to have been ghost written by Jefferson, if the source is correct), is it noteworthy? Lincoln's religious beliefs are a matter of controversy as well, yet his article contains no section on religious beliefs. I suggest we delete the religious beliefs section and leave the whole religion controversy to List of United States Presidential religious affiliations. It is what they deal with. Does anyone agree with me that the section should be deleted? --Sparkhurst 21:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we delete this section as well. Especially since there is overwhelming evidence showing his strong Christian faith. The liberals/humanists on this board seek to undermine this fact.

• • Provide some real evidence then, keeping in mind that deists are not atheists. --JimWae 16:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I provided overwhelming evidence yesterday all of which has been deleted. Keep in mind that Deists are not Christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Gbdill (talk • contribs)

To answer Sparkhurst's question, Washington's religious beliefs are disputed enough to merit at least some coverage in our article. Right now, the section is strong on anecdote and completely lacking in scholarly opinion. For example, here are three scholarly views:

According to biographer James Thomas Flexner, "George Washington was, like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, a deist." On the other hand, biographer John Ferling writes that Washington "was not a Deist, however. He believed in God's intervention in worldly affairs, and he anticipated a life after death." According to biographer Marcus Cunliffe, Washington "was a Christian as a Virginian planter understood the term."

I haven't added these yet because I haven't read two essential books on Washinton's beliefs: Frank Grizzard's The Ways of Providence: Religion and George Washington, and Paul Boller's George Washington & Religion. And anyone who hasn't read these hasn't read widely enough to write a good overview appropriate for this encyclopedia. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 16:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC) ---

Agreed. Unless both sides are equally presented I believe this section should be omitted. I will continue to edit this section until the administrator of this site says otherwise. I believe there is overwhelming evidence to show that Washington was a Christian in the literal sense. I presented these facts yesterday all of which has been deleted.--Gbdill 17:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC) ---

I am terribly dismayed by the lack of evidence to show our president's as something other than being a Christian in the literal sense. I believe there is an overwhelming attempt at undermining our president's religious beliefs here. I propose we eliminate these sections from all of our president's entry altogether. Mr. Wae seems to have an agenda here by labelling most of our president's as deists or unitarians just based on a few quotes that have nothing to do with their religious beliefs.--Gbdill 17:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Your dismay or personal opinion does not give you the right to delete sourced material. If you have evidence GW was Xn, present it here. Aside from deleting all evidence of deism, what you added yesterday was predominantly unsourced assertion & editorializing - except for the letter from Nelly, which is still in the article (and is certainly not overwhelming). Is it your intention to overwhelm us with emotion, instead? --JimWae 18:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Here is the sort of overwhelming evidence you inserted yesterday, as you deleted sourced material:--JimWae 18:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

    However, Washington was a confirmed member of Christ Church Episcopal Church in Alexandria, VA where he and his family regularly attended services. Contrary to what some believe, Washington was a devout Episcopalian believing in God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit along with the inerrancy of the Holy Bible. To assume that he was a Deist is merely based on unconfirmed facts.

I have presented the material and source and it is now posted to the site. Perhaps you too are emotional by taking it upon yourself to delete my material from yesterday. Instead of deleting you should add. --Gbdill 18:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• • What you have mostly done AGAIN is delete sourced material that was there and substituted unsourced opinion, such as: To say that he was a Deist is completely false.. You will see soon that there are many others who will remove such rubbish I see you are on a tear today, removing material on Washington, Adams, & Jefferson. Please see WP:NPOV --JimWae 19:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • What you have inserted has been thoroughly discredited. If you had taken time to read and consider material you have deleted you would have seen: "An unfinished book of copied prayers attributed to him (as a youth) by a collector was rejected by the Smithsonian Institution for lack of authenticity."[1]
  • Your behaviour here is little different from vandalism --JimWae 19:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"To say that he was a Deist is completely false" is based on the quote by his own daughter exclaiming the heresy of other claims that he was something other than a Christian. The truth hurts doesn't it? And indeed I am on a tear. I am tired of the lies that many people like yourself have rewritten history to conform to your liberal and humanist views and to undermine the Christian heritage of our nation. What's next... Jesus Christ was a Deist too? --Gbdill 19:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that both cases should be presented in the article, and that's how it should be. The truth is, his religious beliefs are ambiguous and in an academic forum you need to highlight questionable assertions with citations and neutrality. By no means should we omit the section, as it is clearly obvious Washington's religion played a large part in his life. Aaрон Кинни (t) 19:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Although Washington's religious beliefs are not ambiguous. But, please tell this to Mr. Wae. He has taken it upon himself to delete my material that I presented yesterday. --Gbdill 19:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

For the most part I will stay out of this. However, I'm with JimWae on this one: PRESENT SOME EVIDENCE, PLEASE! --Sparkhurst 19:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Overwhelming evidence has been provided. Please see article. --Gbdill 19:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Overwhelming evidence? It seems like biased Xian-revisonist fluff. While you claim you wish for both sides to be presented, the changes you continue to make to the section would suggest otherwise. --Sparkhurst 19:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe a Wikipedia administrator should mediate this issue. What is the process? --Gbdill 19:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

You can add your evidence and material but don't delete others' in the process. That's vandalism. Aaрон Кинни (t) 19:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• If you are speaking to me "gbdill" then that is exactly what I did yesterday. I simply added material not delete. However, Mr. Wae has done otherwise. --Gbdill 19:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Due to Mr. Sparkhurt's and Wae's obvious anti-Christian rhetoric, I no longer will debate this issue with you. I will hand it over to Wikipedia administrators. --Gbdill 19:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Very well, then. However, you may not be able to do much, you have broken the 3RR rule. Aaрон Кинни (t) 19:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Then I guess we all have violated this rule today, haven't we? --Gbdill 20:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Just you I believe. Reversions of vandalism do not count, anyway --JimWae 20:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Gbdill, I am by no means anti-Christian, sir and I resent being labeled as such by you. Those who are anti-non-Christian never really care to entertain the notion that Washington may have been a deist. Instead, they cite hagiographies written by those seeking to convince others he was a pious Christian rather than analyze the evidence in an intellectually honest manner. The extent of Washington's religious views are a mystery. He never stated them yet you claim to know. So I might point out one more thing, I noticed you took offense to the religious pluralism paragraph. I find it fitting that you deemed it unsuitable and what a pity. The world would benefit tenfold if more people took it to heart. --Sparkhurst 19:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Never once did I "label" you as anti-Christian. I simply stated that you have posted anti-Christian rhetoric (i.e. your comment about Xtian revisionist fluff). Do you often twist and distort people's words or is that your typical repsonse to anyone who disagrees with your world views?--Gbdill 20:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

--Gbdill 20:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

--- I see that Wikipedia has become an online encyclopedia provided ONLY by certain individuals with certain beliefs. It is a very one-sided and biased op-ed piece that sides with only liberal and humanist viewpoints. --Gbdill 20:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a liberal. I could go on a little diatribe, but I won't. What is the point? You won't bother listening and you'll simply continue to insert your POV into the section. It is a wonder you haven't been banned yet. --Sparkhurst 20:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Banning those that disagree with your viewpoint... sounds a little reminscient of COMMUNISM.--Gbdill 20:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Unconstitutional laws during Washington's presidency?

Were any laws made under the presidenticy (sorry for my infamously poor spelling) of George Washington ruled unconstitutional?