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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2.247.103.43 (talk) at 01:16, 31 December 2014 (better format ..). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"Gutting" an article during deletion discussion

I've created an essay on Gutting an article during deletion discussion.

You may find it interesting reading at: User:Cirt/Gutting.

Cheers,

— Cirt (talk) 18:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I shall be nominating this essay for deletion as a violation of WP:AGF and a personal attack on contributors. AndyTheGrumpygrump (talk) 18:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. As Rex from Toy Story says, "I don't like confrontations". Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 06:39, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought WP:AGF meant that each individual gets the benefit of the doubt, not that nobody is ever not in good faith. Wikidgood (talk) 01:35, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Great article, well done! --Maxl (talk) 09:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is "not a democracy" ????

I'm absolutely flabbergasted to read this statement in the article. I think it is a potentially dangerous one. Because what is the opposite of democracy? A dictatorship! Of course I've seen arguments settled in a democratic way in here but the statement that Wikipedia is "not a democracy" could be, and I believe, is sometimes abused by certain people here who think their opinion count more than that of others. The world has seen and is still seing many richt and left wing dictatorships and Wikipedia should not become one. We have learned of world history that dictatorships don't work on the long run. Hitler was defeated. The Warsaw pact no longer exists. Democracy has prevailed. That should show us how important democracy is and we should not outlaw it on Wikipedia. A place like the Wikpipedia where so many people come together can only function in a democratic way and not in any other way! And democracy also demands free speech. It's not just the American constitution that is to be discussed but also the many other domocratic constitutions in the world as there are not just only American users but they are from everywhere in the world. And as to the buerocracy, also mentioned in the project page, it is said that the Wikipedia is not a buerocracy. However, I've seen people defend their perception of certain rules in a most buerocratic way, not being open to new ideas. Not everything is, obviously, going well on the Wikipedia. That's what I just wanted to say. --Maxl (talk) 21:26, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This page doesn't say that Wikipedia is the opposite of a democracy. It just says it's not a democracy, which is true. Not being a democracy doesn't mean being a dictatorship. Martijn Hoekstra (talk)
In a democracy, people vote on everything. Wikipedia does not work that way. That is all. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 17:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then it's a dictatorship, simple and clear. Not being a democracy is tantamount to being a dictatorship! And that's the big fault! Wikipedia would work so much better if things got voted on instead of inflexible rule-wielders causing frustration and anger by enforcing their rigid and undemocratic decisions. --Maxl (talk) 09:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is neither a democracy nor a dictatorship - Wikipedia works by consensus, not by voting nor by following dictat from a single person or small hierarchy. Almost all rules on Wikipedia should be interpreted with flexibility (exceptions are principally those with legal implications), and if someone is not doing so then you should discuss it with them. If discussion is not fruitful then there exists the dispute resolution process. Thryduulf (talk) 12:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Circus

Hello. I used 'Wikipedia is not a circus' referring to the possibility of fragrant violations of policies and guidelines not being enforced. But wouldn't this be akin to 'Wikipedia is not an anarchy' instead? Otherwise, I'd propose that maybe it be added onto this page. But I don't wanna be redundant if it's heavily similar to the anarchy portion. Tutelary (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. "Wikipedia is not a circus" [sic] is a rude alternative to "Wikipedia is not an anarchy". Emphasis on the "rude" is mine. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 03:47, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting some tweaks to the crystal ball section

I'd like to formally request that we add some information to the crystal ball section. The reason for this is this AfD where there was some argument over WP:TOOSOON and CRYSTAL. There was some argument that CRYSTAL doesn't apply to things that have already released and to a certain degree I can agree with them, but here's the argument in a nutshell:

In many instances I see articles up for deletion where the topic of discussion does exist in some form or fashion (people, books, companies, etc) but the topic hasn't gained enough coverage to really pass notability guidelines (only 1-2 sources that merely announce the topic's existence but without being in-depth enough to show notability per a specific notability guideline). Some will argue that the topic at hand exists and will be likely to gain more coverage, but as we all know coverage is never guaranteed by the existence of something. In other words, we cannot predict that more coverage would be forthcoming on a topic despite its existence.

Basically what I'd like to include in the section is that the current existence of a topic (a film releasing, a person being employed, a company operating, and so on) does not automatically guarantee that it will continue to gain coverage. It does make it more likely, but it still isn't a guarantee. The recent AfD about Fig Tree Books kind of made me think that it would probably be a good idea to include something like this in the guidelines because ultimately the AfD arguments are sort of splitting hairs, saying that the idea of crystal balling doesn't apply to an article because the topic of discussion exists in some form or fashion and CRYSTAL doesn't explicitly state that it can apply to existing companies, people, and so on. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with the consensus (as best I can tell) at that AfD discussion that TOOSOON and CRYSTAL don't apply there. And I also think there is no need for a tweak -- I think that's how it should be. Per discussion there. Although I've not !voted one way or another at the AfD itself, at this point in time. What's sought here isn't even it seems to me a TOOSOON or CRYSTAL issue -- everyone agrees that the subject has to meet GNG -- now. There's no support for the notion that we should keep articles at AfD because of fanciful expectations of what future coverage the article may attract. But that's the same whether the company has launched or not. In either case, if it has attracted GNG coverage, we keep it. If it has not attracted such coverage, we delete it. Epeefleche (talk) 08:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with your assessment of the consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fig Tree Books. 5 people are saying delete/return to draftspace and 2 people are saying keep. How can that be construed as consensus for TOOSOON and CRYSTAL not applying?Vrac (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus can disagree with the "vote" count, because consensus if not determined by counting votes. (I'm not making any judgement on consensus on the AfD in question, and as an involved party you shouldn't be either.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of any prohibition on being able to question someone's assessment of a consensus. Vrac (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm not aware of any prohibition against pointing out one's use of vote counting is not equivalent to consensus... It's a basic principle of debate that you don't get to declare your own arguments superior, which is much closer to what Wikipedia consensus means than vote counting. I was simply clarifying that my comment was not intended as a judgement on the actual discussion in question since I (like other involved parties) shouldn't be declaring my arguments superior. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This isn't really a place to continue the argument for the AfD and I really only mentioned it because it was a good example of this. Basically, what we have here is a company that exists but has not gained any coverage beyond 2-3 articles mentioning that it opened. I think that sometimes something can exist but just not have achieved notability yet- meaning that it's premature (ie, too soon) for the topic to have an article on Wikipedia. I don't think that we should say that TOOSOON and CRYSTAL can't apply to something because it currently exists, when the topic in question has not yet achieved notability per various guidelines. That's kind of what TOOSOON is taken to mean because ultimately many of these AfDs revolve around the argument that because the topic has received a small pittance of media coverage (but currently fails notability guidelines) that it will continue to gain coverage, when we really can't predict that they will. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:49, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course something can exist and not have notability. Five billion people exist which have no notability... There is no reason to specially call out recently formed companies. TOOSOON is basically a nice way to say "you aren't notable", not a different notability requirement. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:21, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree w/Thad. But that's not something to cover in this policy. Which, if one reads it (though many editors not including present company read I suspect only the name of the policy) covers "unverifiable speculation", and says the subject matter "must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred."
"When the topic in question has not yet achieved notability per various guidelines", the situation Tokyo posits -- the argument Tokyo is looking for already exists in those guidelines. It's already reflected, for example -- if that happens to be the case -- in failure to meet GNG. Epeefleche (talk) 23:47, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not your own database or reference desk

Some of the difficulties still remaining with WWIN have to do with people wanting to control the WP just a little too much. I know that I have been as guilty as anyone, so I'm going to be careful in how I approach this subject. One of the things that has made a difference in my behavior here at WP (admittedly much less action overall) is that I have a Wikia page in my name. This may not be the best use of a Wikia either, but it is much less controversial and distracting than using WP as my own little soapbox on a constant basis. If I want to add my own perspective and tweaks to a WP page, I instead make a link to it on my Wikia, and add whatever extra commentary or links that I care to.

It might help to ask after the various ways (better or worse) that people see WP and the level of agency (autonomy) they feel that they need concerning WP as a whole, and certain pages or subjects that are near and dear to their hearts. Based on what they want, you can make several recommendations. They can:

  • continue to edit here, but confine some material to personal drafts or userpages
  • open a Wikia on a chosen field, control the content more closely, and address more items in depth
  • use a Google "Sites" system, whether locked (private) or unlocked (public viewing), though creating multiple editors is a bit more difficult than with a Wikia.
  • buy a domain name and have a host ISP

There are plenty of other options, but you get the idea. Does anyone have some cases to mention where these questions and approaches might be helpful? -- TheLastWordSword (talk) 21:29, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOT#GUIDE and other fictional rules or their inevitable (mis)use

For a long time I found good and plenty of detailed information and analysis of fictional works (including games). I don't mean guides or "move and item lists" (though I would not even delete those either). I mean world, character and story element descriptions and analysis. Even if those are primarily sourced from the main resource (games / books), these are valuable resources for people (and me as a computer scientist). I don't really understand why such resources are removed? What is the problem or agenda behind having the encyclopedia not applied to fictional works or worlds?

My problem goes further though. I think I see a snowball effect happening with these deletations and removals. C was an extension of B which was an extension of A etc. Once C has been trimmed, B is trimmed shortly after, and once the snowball reaches A the page is trimmed to really blend trivia (basically claiming "A exists and is a XYZ"). All the detailed knowledge is then lost and it is much harder to understand concepts and separate / detailed information. For humans as much as computers. And I don't get the benefit here. I mean these information are clustered under very distinct categories and linked likewise on the outward "branches" of the encyclopedia graph.

What is the reason? Nobody who does not look for these things will stumble upon them, those who do by some mistake will simply realize it, and those who actually search for the articles will be happy about them. I LOVE to stumble onto (detailed!) stuff outside my domain of knowledge on Wikipedia and I feel loosing ANY knowledge (separated in articles) is a meaningless culling. I see a deep problem in culling rules like WP:NOT#GUIDE - which will be misused and appropriated eventually.

As an example [1] was culled in 2007, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gaia_(Final_Fantasy_VII) was removed ("merged") in 2013. The current information towards the FF7 "world" is much more limited than it was years ago. I am not a "fan boy" here (I actually don't care about any specific game) but I do not see a destructive ideology as beneficial to an encyclopedia. (Leaving out any discussion on the quality of articles here - which could be fixed - and if not often visited - should have some time to do so). Is your aim to "govern" which knowledge is important and which is not? If so, how did you arrive at the judgment that historical information / events are more influential or beneficial or important to humanity than fictional? I think if fictional works are anything then they are often reframings and reimaginings of history in a more appealing way (to certain generations). This is an example where actually leaving and linking the fictional work would be highly beneficial.

Another aspect is that the approach fails to capture any human history. History only happens to a small degree in the non fictional world (see bible) and yet we take only measured to ensure that such age old works of fiction are accurately covered. To me, classifying and describing anything that can be, would not break the frame of an encyclopedia. And thus I don't get the destructiveness. Kind regards, JH. Please provide me with feedback (and if this is the wrong talk page - please point me to the right one :)) 2.247.103.43 (talk)

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