Template talk:Quantities of bytes

-ibi-bollocks

@people reverting the edits to this: The list in its unedited state effectively doesn't contain the most widely used 1KB=1024B notation. The IEC poppycock is so rarely used that even including them in a table like this is just trying to push them down people's throats. If you really think it's necessary to even include those ridiculous -ibi units in this table, don't make them the primary/only notation in the table. Boatmurdered (talk) 00:57, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

They're not primary/only, and we include them for completeness and lack of ambiguity. --Cybercobra (talk) 01:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The table has been reverted to a state where the binary value column is duplicated, and there is no way to quickly know that the binary values are slightly larger than the decimal values. In both cases, I am having trouble seeing this as anything but a step in the wrong direction.  :-( —Quantling (talk | contribs) 15:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

There is duplication because and only insofar as the SI prefixed units are ambiguous as to their meaning (decimal or binary?; c.f. User:Boatmurdered above and Kilobyte). As for losing the decimal approximations of the binary values, it makes the navbox rather wide and arguably would be better suited as actual article content (see Binary_prefix#Deviation_between_powers_of_1024_and_powers_of_1000). --Cybercobra (talk) 19:27, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

IEC, ISO and JEDEC Prefixes

The IEC and ISO prefixes are documented in international standards for magnitudes up to and including YB and YiB. They are also used in hundreds of scientific articles every year. The JEDEC prefixes are documented in a JEDEC standard up to and including GB. Like compvis I do not believe the JEDEC prefixes are used for large magnitudes. The version proposed by compvis is better than that proposed by arthur rubin. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster defines terabyte as "1024 gigabytes or 1,099,511,627,776 bytes" first and "one trillion bytes" second. My personal belief is that being concerned with using every available byte is infeasible beyond the megabyte level, so the distinction between the powers-of-ten based meanings and powers-of-two based meanings becomes less important for quantities of one gigabyte and above. Hence usage examples tend to be more approximate and it will often be hard to discern which meaning the author of an example had in mind.

The dictionary I cited does not have definitions for petabyte or exabyte. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

The argument repeatedly used against IEC prefixes is that they are not used, so let's look at usage. WP's exabyte cites one IBM article that goes up to 16 EB with binary meaning. That's only one article but it seems an important one. There seems no justification to claim though, as this template does, that JEDEC prefixes are applied to quantities larger than 1 EB. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 14:09, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

See also: WP:COMPUNITS

The template currently includes WP:COMPUNITS under "See also". I removed it on the grounds that "generally article space should not link to WP space", but Jc3s5h restored it, saying that "template space is not article space, and the link to the WP space page is not visible in the transclusion of this template".

While I agree that WP:Template namespace is not Wikipedia:Article namespace, and that the "see also" list is not visible (being tagged as <noinclude>), I still do not believe it is appropriate. Wikipedia:SELF#In the Template and Category namespaces says (with my emphasis)

Limited use of self-references are sometimes found in the Template namespace and the Category namespace, such as with disambiguation and stub notices. Expanding this to other areas is not encouraged...

If we really think that a reference to the WP page is necessary at all, it should probably be a {{selfref}} hatnote, but even then I don't think it appropriate or necessary. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:04, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I consider the general practice in English in this area to be unstable. We have popular usage avoiding the IEC prefix, but standards-making bodies endorsing them and discouraging the binary meaning of SI prefixes. Thus, I anticipate that some sort of readjustment is likely in the future. Links between WP guidelines and templates will make it easier to be aware of the areas that should be examined if the practice in the English language changes.

Also, reading Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Self-references to avoid, I think it only applies to material that is visible in articles. If you look at {{cite book}}, for example, the documentation is chock full of links to pages in template and WP space. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

The International System of Quantities (ISQ)

The so-called "IEC prefixes" are now part of the International System of Quantities (ISQ). Given that the ISQ is a broad collaboration between ISO and IEC, the heading "IEC" seems too narrow to describe the present situation. With this in mind I propose replacing the header "IEC" with "ISQ". Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:29, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Hm. As someone who generally prefers precise and current terminology, I concur. As someone who supports the notion of using the most familiar terms (e.g. WP:COMMONNAME), I have my doubts. Jeh (talk) 21:44, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Fair comment. On the other hand, given that few readers have heard of IEC prefixes at all, even fewer will worry too much whether they are called "IEC prefixes" or "ISQ prefixes", so perhaps this is one of those times to favour precision. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:59, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Styling using navbox classes

A recent edit replaced in-line styling by navbox classes. Apart from an acceptable change of coloring, it also has the rather ugly effect that the main title is no longer centered, and the VTE temmplate no longer right aligned. I have tried to fix it, but could not succeed. User:Frietjes might have a try at correcting it. −Woodstone (talk) 16:55, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

should be better, we can't use width:2em due to the vte links floating outside of the sidebar on Firefox. Frietjes (talk) 17:11, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

It looks ok now. I suppose you will repeat the process on the sister templates of bits and prefixes? −Woodstone (talk) 15:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Recent addition of terabyte in JEDEC column

Are people comfortable with this edit? The issue is not whether the terabyte is sometimes used in this way (that it is has been established at Talk:terabyte), but whether said use merits it acquiring the same status as other entries in the same column. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:51, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

It's reliably sourced so no reason not to have it. It's irrelevant if someone personally dislikes it because it's what is reliably sourced that matters. The entire JEDEC column should should be renamed to "common prefixes" and contain all the commonly used prefixes as binary quantities because that's what is used in reliable sources. Again this is about correctly representing reliable sources and improving the coverage and relevant of Wikipedia. Fnagaton 23:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello! Let's have a look at it from the current usability standpoint: where would TB be used as 1024⁴ bytes, at least frequently enough? At the present state of technology, pretty much nowhere as the computer storage uses powers of ten (for both HDDs and SSDs), while single-computer RAM capacities in the range of terabytes are still very rare. Thus, IMHO we should be better without it. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 06:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. The "binary terabyte" can hardly be called a "customary usage" when there are no products that use it. And, as I wrote about three weeks ago in response to Fnagaton's arguments on another of these templates' talk pages: References for the entries in this column are here for kilo, here for mega, and here for giga. We can't say that JEDEC defines tera until this page exists, or until "tera" appears on this page.

These are the pages of JEDEC's dictionary in which they define the standard terms that they recommend to their member companies for use. Mere mentions of tera "in a binary sense" within JEDEC's other pages cannot be said to be at the same level, not until "the tera page" exists. Fnagaton has never responded to this point. I consider this point definitive, particularly as Fnagaton has never made a cogent rebuttal to it, only continuing to cite mere "mentions". Jeh (talk) 08:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Jeh. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Windows uses TB as binary for hard disks. The JEDEC also define it as a binary quantity. There is no reason not to include TB ain the JEDEC column. Glider87 (talk) 13:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The "cannot be used at the same level" reason is WP:OR and does not prohibit other reliable sources being used. As I've done I've cited the other standards document that shows terabyte with binary quantities. Trying to claim a link must exist before you accept something is an invalid reason since it's not compatible with WP:RSGlider87 (talk) 13:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The way Windows displays storage capacity is a rather good point, but how many times do we state the numbers Windows reports as the capacity of a storage device in a Wikipedia article, just to describe how large a device is? — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 13:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

This revert [1] does not follow WP:PAYWALL which says "Do not reject sources just because they are hard or costly to access. If you have trouble accessing a source, others may be able to do so on your behalf". The reference is accurate and the account is free to get. These other reliable sources also list all the prefixes with power of two values. [2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12] The last few also describe the power of two use as "common". Such common use means it gets included in the table with references and the column header can be changed to reflect this common use. I also don't have to respond to incorrect claims about fabricated links to pages that don't exist Jeh. You claim is not cogent Jeh because the JEDEC use of terabyte with power of two values is reliably sourced. Your insistence on a particular link being created is illogical Jeh and as Glider87 points out it is a violation of WP:OR and WP:RS. Fnagaton 14:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Obviously a specific missing page is not by itself definitive, but the fact that "Tera" is missing from this page remains. No, you don't have to respond, in which case the point remains valid. I am not disputing that various JEDEC documents use the term. I am disputing that they define the term. Clearly, they do not. Jeh (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Fnagaton, IMHO pulling the WP:PAYWALL guideline as an argument for something that should be very simply accessible doesn't make much sense. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 14:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

It is accessible and verifiable if you create a free account. There is a copy of it here without an account.Fnagaton 14:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You can ask Swtpc6800 about that WP:PAYWALL guideline if you like.Fnagaton 14:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

On which page in that PDF is the definition of "binary" terabyte, please? Searching for "TB", "terabyte" and "1024" returned nothing. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 14:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Page 100 "The maximum density possible to be indicated is thus 2 Tera bytes (4 294 967 296 x 512B)" which is a power of value value. Fnagaton 14:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Terabyte use as power of two values [13] and [14] with hard disks, from a hard disk manufacturer.Fnagaton 15:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Wherein Seagate says " all major disk drive manufacturers use decimal values when discussing storage capacity." Doesn't exactly help your case. They do note that Windows uses "binary values" but no one has disputed that point. Jeh (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

As we know, this template tries to list various units as categories defined by the respective standardization bodies. Obviously, JEDEC doesn't define a "binary" terabyte; instead, JEDEC just mentions it somewhere and that's the key. Thus, if we include "binary" terabyte under the "JEDEC" column, it's no longer JEDEC who defines all units in that column. What should we list instead of JEDEC, as there must be some standardization body that defines various units? — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 15:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I do not believe that any widely-recognized standardization body other than JEDEC has codified the use of any of the SI prefixes for any meaning other than as powers of 1000, and JEDEC has only defined kilo, mega, and giga. That's the whole point. The "JEDEC" column head is parallel to "Metric" (SI) and "IEC". Everything in the JEDEC column should be similarly defined by that organization. There is exactly one document at JEDEC where JEDEC publishes their standardized definitions of terms, and "tera" is not among their definitions. It is misleading to list "tera" in that column as if it were on an equal footing with the others. It is not "OR" to note that JEDEC's definitions document does not have a page for "tera", or that "tera" is missing from that document's list of terms that start with "T". On the contrary, it is blatant synthesis to generalize from a mere mention to a formal definition. Jeh (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

This template shows byte quantities, it's not only for what you thin is in standards bodies. It is misleading to not include significant points of view expressed in reliable sources.Glider87 (talk) 22:37, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Jeh you are incorrect about the JEDEC only having binary tera in one document. The JEDEC JESD88E says "terabyte commonly used as a prefix to units of semiconductor storage capacity and meaning 2⁴⁰ [1 099 511 627 776] bytes".Glider87 (talk) 22:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)