Talk:Mogadishu

Ajuran

The History section of the article needs a clean up and improvement. It does not discuss the Ajuran sultanate, World War 2, etc. Would anyone like to help me? AcidSnow (talk) 18:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

The Ajuran Sultanate didn't directly rule the city. The Muzaffar Dynasty of the Sultanate of Mogadishu did, and the Ajuran Sultans exacted tribute from the Muzaffars. Middayexpress (talk) 18:44, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I think we should divide the History section in to a couple of categories: Earliest History (We should try to see if we can find any skeletons from the region going farther back than the Khoisan), Foundation (Dissuce Somali arrival and we should see if we can find more info on Sarapion such as a foundation century), Persian occupation, Middle Ages (Republic then the Sultanate), Early Modern (Geledi annexation of the city and Italian rule), and finally Modern. I will get work on Sarapion. AcidSnow (talk) 22:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

All of that's already pretty much noted. However, the early Persian presence was more of a settlement than an occupation. Middayexpress (talk) 14:52, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

There is no evidence of a Persian occupation, a mysterious name does not equal foreign rule, just like Persepolis does not originate with a Greek occupation of Persia just because of its Greek name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.74.189 (talk) 23:31, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

The Persians most certainly had control of Mogadishu. AcidSnow (talk) 00:19, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Persians did have an early presence. That's why the Persian New Year (Nowruz) is observed in parts of the south, and a few old structures built in a Persian style can be found in the same area. The Arba'a Rukun Mosque's mihrab also contains an inscription dated 667 (1268/9 CE), which commemorates the masjid's late founder, one Khusra ibn Mubarak al-Shirazi (Khusrau ibn Muhammed). There are still older trade ties described in ancient Chinese documents, but these don't pertain to Mogadishu specifically. Middayexpress (talk) 14:52, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence of a Persian army or dynasty holding sway over Mogadishu, in most of the time-periods of Mogadishu's golden ages, the Persians were ruled by Arabs, Turkic groups and Mongols themselves. Persian Traders, architects and scholars, sure but that's where their presence ends. Somalis had the same seafaring presence in other continents, the difference is nobody is overestimating their influence in those regions for clear cultural reasons rooted in colonial writing and race hierarchies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.8.135.120 (talk) 15:55, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, there's indeed no evidence of any Persian army, dynasty, sultanate, etc. actually holding sway over Mogadishu. What I meant by an early Persian presence was individual traders and Islamic scholars/proselytizers. This is why the structures that the settlers left behind mainly consist of mosques and religious tombs. The actual polity that ruled Benadir during the period was of course the Sultanate of Mogadishu's Muzaffar Dynasty, and prior to that, it was the Sultanate's founding Fakr ad-Din Dynasty. Middayexpress (talk) 16:27, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, my reply was aimed the user above you that said "most certainly" when its probably at best a fringe source or blatant OR. This is just a case of kicking Somalis out of their own history and heritage by placing undue weight on foreign influences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.8.135.120 (talk) 19:46, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Climate

The temperatures are monthly weather averages and minima/maxima. They are not daily minima/maxima [1]. Middayexpress (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

As the article and that source show, 23-24C are average night minima for each month, as I said - not monthly 24h averages. Most of the text of the climate section is nonsense. There is no alternating between a chill and heatwaves - it is always hot. There is less than 3 celcius difference between the averages for each month. As with all locations near the equator, there is no spring-summer-autumn-winter sequence. The articles on Singapore, Lagos, Recife etc. don't mention spring because, like, Mogadishu, they don't have such seasons. Jim Michael (talk) 23:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you're saying. The climate is fairly hot year round. Average temperatures per month vary by 3 °C (5.4 °F), which corresponds with a hyperoceanic and subtype truly hyperoceanic continentality type [2]. I've made this clearer. Middayexpress (talk) 14:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Mogadishu has gotten much colder than 60's.[3] My bad, Midday, I meant something else. AcidSnow (talk) 03:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If Mogadishu's current weather is 16°C/62°F how is the lowest temprate recorded 20°C/68°? AcidSnow (talk) 12:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone know exactly why Mogadishu's weather is messed up? I am unable to explain why. AcidSnow (talk) 23:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Sultanates

The lead does not accurately depict the history of Mogadishu. It makes it seem like an Arab colony. It does not even mention the Sultanates and how it was a republic before that. The same can be said about the history section which disscuse relavent stuff as well. I will make improvements in the coming days. AcidSnow (talk) 03:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I've noted the Sultanates in the lede. The kingdom history is fine, as it already notes the Sultanate of Mogadishu, Ajuran Sultanate and Geledi Sultanate. Middayexpress (talk) 15:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I will update it by tomorrow. AcidSnow (talk) 20:49, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

No worries; I just fixed it. Middayexpress (talk) 17:48, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Lol see my take page to see what I mean. A large portion of the cities history is not mentioned. AcidSnow (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You appear to be referring there to early Kharijite disciples, which isn't the same thing as the Sultanate of Mogadishu. Middayexpress (talk) 19:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't even know what that is....... AcidSnow (talk) 19:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's what the 694 date refers to. Middayexpress (talk) 19:40, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Hijab

A girl of that age (prepubescent) wearing hijab is not normal nor representative of Somali girls of that age nor of Muslim girls of that age in general. A pubescent Somali girl or woman wearing a hijab is representative of Somali females in general, and that is why must be put instead. The Holy Quran requires that only girls who reach puberty wear the hijab. The prophet Muhammad PBUH said "After a young woman reaches the age of puberty, nothing should be seen of her except her face and hands". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.200.10.224 (talk) 22:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The Qur'an does not actually mandate the hijab; it just requires modest attire. Many, if not most, Somali girls also do wear the hijab (please see hijab by country). Middayexpress (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

What I pointed out to, above and which is not the norm, are prepubescent girls who wear or more precisely are dressed by their parents in the hijab, like the prepubescent Somali girl in the picture, and not Somali and Muslim girls wearing the hijab who reached puberty - which is the norm. That is why that picture is not representative of prepubescent Somali and Muslim girls and is thus misleading. This is the reason as a devout Muslim I object to and take offense. That is why the picture should be replaced showing pubescent girls and women wearing the hijab, because it is the norm of most Somali and Muslim pubescent girls and women, regardless of country and culture.

Kindly leave a response if any here. That said, the norm refers to what is common. Many, if not most, Somali girls indeed wear the hijab, not just adolescents and women. Again, please see hijab by country for the sartorial traditions in various nations (they aren't all the same, though there are general similarities), and hijab for what Islamic scripture stipulates on this. Middayexpress (talk) 22:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Middayexpress is right that what is representative is what is the norm in Somalia (or Mogadishu, more specifically), not anything to do with what the Quran says. The article is about Mogadishu, after all. It would be useful to see a source that confirms it is indeed the norm, however. Cordless Larry (talk) 00:34, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

See hijab by country. Middayexpress (talk) 01:27, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

As far as I know, the Hijab wasn't common until recently. AcidSnow (talk) 01:29, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I had in mind an external source, not a Wikipedia article, but that article isn't that helpful anyway. It says "Unmarried or young women, however, do not always cover their heads". Does that mean that a small minority don't cover their heads, or a large minority, or a majority. It would just be good to know whether the average Somali girl wears the hijab. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:29, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Here's a source, which confirms that since the war, most girls in Somalia wear the hijab. I think that's sufficient to demonstrate that the image is representative of Somali girls. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:59, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, whose views I oppose on theological grounds, is made inadvertantly right on this. A girl at that age (prepubescent) does not decide on her own whether to wear a hijab or not, her parents force her to do so, which is not normal nor sanctioned in Islam, just like female gential circumcision (also common to the region and the continent) is also not and is as morally offensive. As a Muslim I am offended, because this is not Islam. Furthermore the photo demostrates the suppression of girls and children, which disturbingly the original loader and user of this photo fails to understand and inadvertantly promotes it as normal. That is why it needs to be removed and replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.200.8.25 (talk) 11:29, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point of the article. It's to describe Mogadishu, its people, etc. If girls in Mogadishu wear the hijab, then there's no reason for the article not to include this. You mention FGM. I agree that FGM is also a problem, but that doesn't stop us having an article about it on Wikipedia. The idea is to describe the world, not make judgements on it. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:54, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

31, again, the Qur'an does not mandate the hijab; it just requires modest attire. Please see hijab for the actual theology on this. Middayexpress (talk) 17:24, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

The user who originally uploaded the photo, is constantly avoiding the problem here by constantly circumventing the issue by falsely pointing to the Quran, when he/she know that the Quran does not sanction this and is not part of the tenets of Islam and is in violation of it. The photo of a prebuscent girl forced to wear a hijab and who looks no older the seven and cannot reall make up her mind on this at her age is a gross sign of misogyny and oppression of prebuscent girls and is in violation of the Quran – and furthermore immoral to be paraded in Wikipedia, which he/she brushes it off as a "cultural custom". The user just doesn’t get it. It is as immoral and objectionable as female gential mutiliaton which is also branded as a "cultural custom". That is why this photo must be removed and replaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.200.8.25 (talk) 21:43, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I see that this picture has caused a great deal of controversy, I will ask for its removal, because like FGM, little girls wearing hijab is also problematic and highly controversial. The impression should not be given that this is condoned by Wikipedia. Preferably alternative non-controversial photos should be used instead. Mortianna (talk) 22:03, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually ip/Mortianna, I uploaded both files. Your objections are also not based on scripture or policy, but rather your own odd perceptions. You hypothesize that the girl (who is actually eight years old, not seven) was supposedly "forced" to wear the hijab. Unfortunately, one cannot argue with such speculation. Islam, by the way, is the state religion in Somalia per the Provision Constitution [4]. This makes your argument all the more bizarre. At any rate, I direct you again to hijab by country to see what are the actual sartorial norms in different Muslim majority countries. They are not all the same, as you mistakenly presume. Middayexpress (talk) 22:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not the IP you are referring to, and it is not my “odd perception” nor a “bizarre” argument, but a thoroughly reasonable and ethical one. But I beg to differ on your personal points of views on the hijab and I seriously doubt that an eight year old girl chooses to wear one on her own free will, just as no one would willing choose FGM. This is the source of the controversy, what I read in the talk page. And controversial it obviously is. I was merely suggesting an alternative proposal when I came across this. Mortianna (talk) 22:31, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure. And I have not shared my opinion, nor will I. What I've actually done is link you to the hijab and hijab by country pages, as well as the Provisional Constitution of Somalia [5] to show you what are the actual sartorial norms in Somalia. Not all Muslim majority countries have the same exact such traditions. Middayexpress (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Administrative Boundaries

Where is the land area figure coming from in the infobox for the administrative area of the city? The page for the Banaadir region says that there is no local government for the city, so it's effectively coextensive with the regional government. The Italian wiki page for the region gives it an area of 370 square kilometers. The weird thing is that the Italian wiki page for the city gives the area as 637 square kilometers. So, what's the land area of the local government that covers Mogadishu/Banaadir? 1,657 sq km, 637 sq km, or 370 sq km? --Criticalthinker (talk) 05:32, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Banaadir is indeed coextensive with the city; the Mayor is thus also the Governor of the Banaadir administration. The urban area is per Demographia. As the city infrastruture is rapidly growing, the urban area is as well. As of 2015, the urban area occupies 35 square miles or 91 km² [6]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:27, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, so that's the spatial measurement of the urban area. But, the primary number in infoboxes for cities are administrative measurements. How large does the local government boundaries measure? --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Template:Infobox settlement has separate parameters for the urban area and metropolitan area. Middayexpress (talk) 21:45, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I think I'm asking very simply if you or anyone else that reads this page know what the administrative boundaries of the region/city are? This is the primary number on city pages. While urban and metropolitan ares can be measured differently depending on which country you're in, an administrative area measurement goes where "area_total_km2 = " is in the template. --Criticalthinker (talk) 06:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Understood. Demographia just notes the urban area. Middayexpress (talk) 17:32, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Article Picture

Article Picture has a Facebook page watermark, not very encyclopedia-like