Talk:Project Riese

"Complex" names

This project was developed, if that's the proper word, by the Germans at a time when this place was part of Nazi Germany. It's puzzling that in this interesting article, the names of the "complexes" all are Polish. It's doubtful that the German builders would have employed Polish names for them. The German Wiki entry doesn't shed any light on this question, though. Sca (talk) 13:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

There was no "project". "Project Riese" represents a postwar effort to tie several different construction projects for different purposes in Silesia together as if they were one large effort. Riese itself was a code-name for a headquarters to be built in the area. The Polish names mostly come from conspiracy theory. Those who care about Riese are mostly UFO conspiracy people. Wartime construction projects often don't have specific names. Sometimes a factory is just a factory. Outside of a sensitive project like a headquarters for Hilter, industrial sites would typically have just been named for the town they were the most near to. 99.197.237.45 (talk) 17:29, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

All complexes have German code names but we just don't know them. Documents connected to individual structures of the project are lost or destroyed. Because Riese is now in Poland, Polish names were created to help identify and find them. Les7007 (talk) 14:25, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

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• The single purpose account Les7007 (talk · contribs) who translated this article from the Polish Wikipedia in July 2009 won’t let me touch it (if any indication is a blanket revert with a cryptic edit summary which was false anyway) mere two hours after my first attempted improvements to the layout. I have left a message on the article owner’s talk page but no word yet. Therefore I’m listing here the most glaring problems, so as not to be talking to the hand like some human cog in a Terminator movie.

1. Please be aware that the Wikipedia license (CC-by-sa) requires source attribution which looks like this when properly formatted: {{Translated page|pl| Riese}}.
2. There’s nothing in this article about the known fact that the Nazi German government confiscated the Schloß Fürstenstein castle in 1941 from the aristocratic family of Hochbergs who owned it for over four hundred years. Please explain in the history section of this article why the castle was confiscated in 1941 thus shedding light on the Riese origins.
3. Please do not mislead the reader (as well as other concerned Wikipedians before me) that the German names of the "complexes" are not known. This is a lie.
   1. Complex Rzeczka is known as Complex Dorfberg
   2. Complex Osówka is known as Complex Säuferhöhen
   3. Complex Książ should read Fürstenstein (or similar)
   4. Complex Włodarz is known as Complex Wolfsberg etcetera.
      Just because you don’t know these names, it doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.
4. Arbeitslager Riese was a subcamp of Gross-Rosen concentration camp and it did not have subcamps of its own. Please, don't make up things. The so-called subcamps of Arbeitslager Riese were in fact German companies who used forced labour from Gross-Rosen administration including Organisation Todt (Dörnhau), Stollen Wolfsberg und Hausdorf (Erlenbusch) and Stollen Falkenberg (Falkenberg) among others.
5. This article has multiple issues (obviously), but I don’t need the grief so I'm just going to leave it here. Poeticbent talk 20:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

1. ...not much left from the original translation anyway...

2. It's useful to read article before editing or criticizing it. From Project Riese: "In 1941 the Nazis confiscated the castle." ...and it had nothing to do with the Riese origins.

3. It's unknown if German names of nearby villages or mountains were used as codenames for the individual structures of the project and highly unlikely if we compare codenames of other underground factories:

Malachit (Malachite)

Makrele I (Mackerel I)

Dachs IV (Badger IV)

Weingut I (Vineyard I)

Maifish (Allis Shad)

Complex Rzeczka isn't known as Complex Dorfberg etc. Web search of the name "Complex Dorfberg" provides one result, "Complex Rzeczka" hundreds.

4. Scholars from Gross-Rosen Museum disagree: "In this way arose Arbeitslager Riese that consisted of thirteen subcamps and a camp hospital." Les7007 (talk) 14:52, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

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• Note, to the owner of this article! Please stop lying. The webpage you quote provides "not a single source" in support of what you claim. The full sentence you cannibalized reads: "They [the first concentration camps] were subordinated to the headquarter [should be headquarters], which, to some extend, possessed autonomy. [what kind?] In this way arose Arbeitslager Riese that consisted of thirteen subcamps [sic, see below] and a camp hospital." -- What was the extent of their autonomy, I ask? Where are the sources? Whose subcamps were they? Does the info originate from the out of print Alfred Konieczny listed somewhere else on that page? Again, I don't like to repeat myself while talking to a blank wall, but stop making up things OK?

Other websites, like www.riese.krzyzowa.org.pl at least provide a page of literature. Quote: "A majority of the prisoners who had to do forced labour during the construction of “Riese” were housed in 4 large subcamps: Wüstegiersdorf, Dörnau, Oberwüstegiersdorf and Wüstewaltersdorf." Again, subcamps of what? Gross-Rosen? Four only? Not thirteen? -- The Riese-Krzyzowa website is more extensive than the other. It is supported by Deschichtswerkstatt Europa and Robert Bosch Stiftung Foundation. On the page about the Tunnels it reads, quote: "As of today, seven systems of shelters and tunnels belonging to the “Komplex Riese” are known to exist in the Owl Mountains. They are found at Dorfbach/Rzeczka, Oberdorf/Jugowice, Wolfsberg/Wlodarz, Ramenberg/Soboul, Falkenberg/Sokolec, on the slopes of the Säuferhöhen/Osowka and near Castle Fürstensein/Zamek Książ." – Quite a departure from your lies about the lack of German designations online. Arbeitslager Riese was a subcamp of Gross-Rosen on its own, and so were the others. Quote from PDF: "The construction work was done by forced labourers from concentration camps. In this case, they came from the KZ Groß-Rosen. They were housed in a number of Außenlagern (sub-camps or satellite camps) called “AL Riese” in the immediate vicinity to the tunnels and other construction sites related to the “Complex Riese." – I repeat, Complex Riese consisted of a number of camps, all subordinated to Gross-Rosen. – It's like calling a factory making wheels a subfactory of factory making the car engines. Gross-Rosen was the assembly line. BTW, I'm taking this page off my watchlist. Enough is enough. Poeticbent talk 03:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Gross-Rosen Museum is a source of all documents and ultimate authority on the subject of Gross-Rosen concentration camp and just dismissing it is pathetic and childish.

I don't think it's a good idea to use quotation: "They were housed in a number of Außenlagen (subcamps or satellite camps) called "AL Riese"..." for a person claiming: "Arbeitslager Riese (…) did not have subcamps of its own."

Another quote from the same website: "The "AL Riese" of the KZ Groß-Rosen consisted of 4 major and 12 minor camps." ...and there is a chapter called: "Individual Camps of "AL Riese". Les7007 (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Just saying things doesn't make them true. Even if the source is a Museum. The camps in the area are the fact. Calling them "Riese" or associating them with "Riese" is speculation based on nothing. Even the association of the multiple sites into one "project" is nothing more than speculation. Its as likely that they were simply a number of independent construction projects in a region of Silesia. By the actual sources, Riese was not a "project". It was simply a code-name for a FHQ to be constructed in lower silesia. 99.197.237.45 (talk) 17:20, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Very poor article

This article is of terrible quality. Its full of speculation, distortions and depends on very questionable sources associated with Nazi UFO conspiracy theory. It has a great number of citations but if one follows back the citations, they inevitably lead back to sources which simply present the speculation of the authors. Even the idea of tying these seven structures together into a single project is not supported by documentation or sources. That they are given made-up Polish names simply creates further misunderstanding. There is no factual basis to even link these sites together. The only valid sources on this topic are speer's comments before and after the war plus those of Nicolaus von Below. Riese was a code-name for a Furher Headquarters to be built. Even calling it "project Riese" is a distortion.

The Speer material often sources to the book of James O'Donnell (The Bunker). That book is rather problematical in that it contains stories supposed from Speer that appear nowhere else. An example being a claim attributed to Speer of polar route flight from Germany to Japan in 1945. From the trustworthy sources, it seems certain that Riese was nothing more than the a headquarters to be built out of Fürstenstein Castle and the estate of the von Pless family. 99.197.237.45 (talk) 17:10, 27 September 2015 (UTC)