Talk:Cheryl B. Schrader

DUI Conviction

The section was removed by user User:Andrewcareaga, whose user page says "Andrew Careaga is Director of Communications, Missouri University of Science and Technology (formerly the University of Missouri-Rolla)" has removed the entire DUI Conviction section without first discussing it:

Removed in accordance with the guidelines of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, specifically that "Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy."

That section contained only fact, fully sourced from the publicly available court records. That's pretty conservative. Privacy is also not an issue. Except for the details of the criminal charges, the court records don't contain any information that isn't contained in the other sources cited by the article. Fully sourced basic details from criminal court records is about as conservative as you can get. An employee of the university where Chancellor Schrader works shouldn't be making subjective decisions like that. Also, should he even be editing the article about his boss? Is that what the good people of Missouri pay the university staff to do?

A DUI arrest is a serious thing, especially for someone in a position of leadership like the dean at a public university. The article Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons states

"If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it."

By removing the DUI section, User:Andrewcareaga has effectively claimed that a DUI arrest and subsequent guilty plea of the chancellor is not noteworthy and relevant. If that user is indeed the Director of Communications at Missouri University of Science and Technology, I hope that is just a personal opinion, and not the official position of the university. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.146.62 (talk) 12:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC) I think the DUI Conviction section should be restored, unless someone can provide an argument for removing it that really is in accordance with Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and remains in the NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.146.62 (talk) 12:46, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Now that I read it again, I do think that section was overly detailed, so I cut it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.146.62 (talk) 15:09, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

As the article was prodded over the DUI, I have reviewed that section. Content there gave undo weight, and was removed. In my opinion, that entire section can be removed. Dlohcierekim 15:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I have reffered the matter to the BLP notice board -> Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Cheryl_B._Schrader Dlohcierekim 16:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:BLP#Public_figures has the rules and examples we should follow. "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." So, the question is, is there a multitude of reliable third-party sources covering the DUI? If so, we should have it. If not, we shouldn't. Currently, we only have court records. Those aren't a multitude, and they aren't even third party; they're primary sources. I'm going to delete the section based on that. If we can find multiple respected newspapers, books, television programs, etc., covering the issue, we can put it in, but until then it should stay out. --GRuban (talk) 17:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree with assessment by GRuban. Court documents are primary, not good enough to establish notability for controversial information on a BLP.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:39, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I must agree as well. Unlike the earlier reason given for removing the section, this one makes sense. However, "multitude" is not the same thing as "multiple." The former suggest "many," while the latter indicates "more than one." Also there is a difference between an incident and a conviction for the incident. Court records are primary sources for the judicial response to the incident, but third-party sources for the incident itself. At least, that's what we're told in civics class, that the court is supposed to be impartial. In this case the arrest of Schrader for driving under the influence of alcohol is the "allegation" and the court action serves as third-party documentation. There are two separate court cases, so isn't that multiple sources? I think that satisfies the BLP requirement for the DUI arrest. I think we're arguing technicalities here. I have a personal bias here, so I am not going to revert the edits.24.117.146.62 (talk) 01:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

By the way, this article is now much better than it was. It read like a campaign biography. As it stands, the DUI section probably would have undue emphasis.24.117.146.62 (talk) 01:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)~

In all fairness, Dr. Schrader was not actually "convicted" of the DUI crime. I just looked at the court records. She was arrested and plead guilty, but she was given a "withheld judgement" instead of a conviction. That means that because she complied with the conditions of probation (in this case, suspended license, victims' panel, etc.) her case was ultimately dismissed without an actual record of conviction. This might be another reason to leave the DUI incident out of the main article; however, at the same time, it is splitting hairs. As the dean of a college, and now the chancellor of a university, Dr. Schrader has placed herself in a position of the public eye and cast herself as a role model. In that light, a DUI arrest is more significant than it would be for someone who is not in such a position. Personally I think it should be at least mentioned in the article, if for no other reason, to balance out the all the (mostly unsourced) praise that comprises the present content. Uranographer (talk) 11:03, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Approximately 24 hours ago, an anonymous user again posted information about the DUI conviction. I removed that information citing the same reasons as previous removal. If this continues to be a problem, perhaps we should consider removing this entry altogether? Under the "Vanity" talk, it has been described as a vanity page and not worthy of Wikipedia. Andrewcareaga (talk) 21:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Notability?

This talk page raises an interesting point. Does an even that happened earlier in someone's life become more "notable" as that person rises in prominence? Certainly it does in some cases--John's Kerry's war record was not notable (according to the definition put forth here) before he entered politics. By taking the position of chancellor at MS&T, Schrader has chosen to put herself in a position of leadership in the public eye. The standards of decorum are different for someone in that role. I think the same is true for the dean of a college, and it's interesting that the DUI conviction apparently didn't get any press in Idaho. Is it possible that it was kept out of the papers to preserve the image of BSU? Frankly, from what I'm reading here, it seems that editors may be doing the same here.

So what constitutes "controversial information" anyway? I would think that meant something like an unsubstantiated claim of sexual misconduct or an unsettled or dropped lawsuit, In this case, it seems Schrader was arrested for and subsequently plead guilty to a criminal DUI. Those linked court records prove that. I don't see how that incident is in any way "controversial," especially with a guilty plea. It may be negative and distasteful, but the only thing controversial about it is, apparently, whether or not is should be included here. Wikipedia is not a vanity blog, but it is evidently being treated as such in this article. On the other hand, it's not a venue for mudslinging either. I would like someone to weigh in about including the DUI who has no connection with Schrader, BSU, or MS&T.Uranographer (talk) 09:04, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Vanity

This is a vanity article if I've ever seen one. The only references are to MS&T sites praising the new chancellor. It looks like this article was just copied from there. Those are not neutral sources. I say either remove the article or put the DUI back in. At least court records are neutral sources. You can't just put up an article about someone, ignoring notability, then hide behind Wikipedia's other policies when someone adds information you don't like. That sounds like a dirty academic trick, and it's hypocritical. 64.105.253.82 (talk) 07:53, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about it being a "dirty academic trick" but the only references (that work) are to sources from her university. There should be at least one reference to some true third party source on the subject. Funny how news releases and news sites from her own university are considered neutral sources, but court records are not. 73.42.140.60 (talk) 10:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)