Talk:Hungarian Revolution of 1956

I think we should write about the Petofi Circle (Petofi Kor)

I don't see why we needed to move the page from Hungarian Revolution, 1956 to 1956 Hungarian Revolution. The former is the Library of Congress entry for the subject and conforms to the preferred style listed in Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(years_in_titles). The latter is not a standard indexing term--the plain text version is usually The Hungarian Revolution of 1956--and is less recommended in the style guide. User:fifelfoo

That is not an accepted convention. It is a "Conventions under consideration" see Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Hungarian Revolution, 1956 is not a natural term that would be linked to within the running text of an article, while 1956 Hungarian Revolution is. --mav 02:46, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)~

25-50 thousands Hungarian deaths?

The page listed 25 to 50 thousand Hungarian deaths. It did not specifically state if they are revolutionary deaths or a combination of revolutionary and civilian deaths. If the casualties refer to revolutionaries only, how did so many die from 10/23 to 11/03? Were they killed in action or death as a result of executions afterwards, if any?

Before the revolution's brief one-week victory the communist secret police paramilitary killed circa 700 protesters with barrage fire in several hungarian cities. About 150 (I think) communist party officials and secret police members were lynched during the revolution. In the fights of the November 4 invasion the soviets lost 2000 troops, about half of them dead and the other half wounded or defected. I have no figure for hungarian civilian and army/insurgent losses to counter that, but 25-50k seems too high. (In comparision the entire Red Army siege of nazi held Budapest in 1944-45 took 20k dead in civilians and that was serious street-by-street ground fighting for two months uninterrupted, a lot of the city was demolished.)

However, at least 200k magyar people fled Hungary when they saw the revolution being crushed. The communist Kádár then came into power and the "blood-triumvirate" of "Kádár-Apró-Dögei" ordered circa 500 revolutionary figures (leaders and street-fighters alike) to be sentenced to death, about 300 of them were actually hanged, the rest were commuted to lenghty imprisonments.

Gyurcsanyi, an ex-communist youth leader and current PM of Hungary took the granddaughter of Antal Apro for wife and he continues to live in the same luxury villa where the purge list meetings of the triumvirate were held, where death sentences were pre-assigned for staged trials. A stupid country we hungarians are...

You're still a bit short. The period of NKVD direct persecution of the councils / councillists accounted for 1500 *media announced deaths* in impeccable party-controlled sources (see Congress of Captive Nations reports i-iv). Summary and "on-the-spot" executions for striking, bearing arms, or suspicion of sedition would of course be higher. Remember that striking (&tc) were summary offenses in to mid-1957. Fifelfoo 00:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

25-50K dead is almost certainly overstated. Many refugees who fled Hungary during and after the revolution had strong motive to dissapear as completely as possible and would not have dispelled rumours of their deaths - indeed would have cultivated them. Even today, there are many 1956 refugees who still refuse to even visit Hungary lest they encounter certain people. The wounds of this glorious tragedy run deep and will only dissapear with that and the following generation. Istvan 19:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

According to my sources (Rudolf Pihoya), casualities were: Hungarians: 1250 - killed; 19226 - wounded Soviet troops: 720 - lost; 1540 - wounded --Nixer 21:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Continuation of Socialism demand debate

An IP user changed "continuation of socialism" into "discontinuation of socialism". I have reverted it. Reverting requires some citation. cites: Aczel & Meray /Revolt of the Mind/ 1959. Mitchener /The Bridge at Andau/ 1957. Sza'sz /Volunteers for the Gallows/ ~1960s (Sza'sz was a Smallholder politician and revolutionary mayor of Budapest). Cardinal Mindzinsky's Radio address on or about 2 November 1956, RFE/RA Transcripts. Bone /Seven Years Solitary/ ~1957. Fryer /Hungarian Tragedy/ 1956. Woroszylski "Hungarian Diary", article in Po Prostu. Also see the extensive and multi-party perspective reporting from the Imre Nagy Research Institute 1957-

As far as the workers council demand of the Hungarian working class, read the demands in Lomax /Workers Council/ which is /the/ exhaustive English language source, mostly derived from Samizdats from the Hungarian opposition movements in the 1960s and 1970s plus refugee reports. If people still think this isn't enough I'll fair use a major demand sheet to demonstrate. Or just read Nagy, Bala'zs "Budapest 1956: The Central Workers Council" in Lomax /Eyewitness in Hungary/.

While contemporary right wing Hungarians, and Americans throughout the ages, have a firm desire to believe in 1956 being anti-socialist, the central demands of every free collective was the maintenance of socialism. Fifelfoo 21:46, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

What are the sources for the Soviet soldiers' mindsets? The reference that some thought they were in Berlin or *Egypt* feels a bit odd; could someone corroborate that?

The corps of Soviet soldiers who did not stop the revolution in its first days were replaced by allegedly uneducated soldiers from the Soviet interior who would be more obedient and effective. It is postulated by many Hungarians that Red Army commanders misled them into believing they were mobilising to fight a counterrevolutionary uprising of Germans (anti-German sentiment among Russians was still very high) or in the Suez - where military action was then taking place - instead of putting down a(n embarrasing) popular uprising in a brother socialist state. This may be to some large extent propoganda to dehumanize the enemy, but it is true that the units which broke the revolution on 4 Nov. originated from within the Soviet Union proper. Certainly, the ruse was short-lived, and if true then any culpability lies with the Soviet commanders. As for an assessment of the soldiers' collective geographical gullibility, we have only anecdotal evidence. Istvan 17:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Having to spoken to my dad and granddad over the years, both of whom fought in the Hungarian revolution. They have on occasion mentioned a Russian soldier who was captured, who believed he was in Hungary to fight against German Nazi’s who had come to Hungary. My dad mentioned another one who thought he was in Syria.

Hungarian Radio Commentator

Apparently at the time of this revolution BBC World Service rebroadcast the reports of a commentator who informed people what was going on. My informants in County Wicklow who heard these broadcasts in 1956 do not remember her name, but it may have been Ilona or Elona. She seems to have been a spokesperson on a reactionary native Hungarian radio station. She described the resistence people in front the tanks quite explicitly, and very shortly thereafter these reports through the BBC World Service ceased. Does anyone know more about this? It seems fitting that she should be remembered by the Wikipedia. Evertype 18:42, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)

Wotcher. Radio Free Europe / Radio America published two transcriptions of radio broadcasts originating from Hungary. The first in Hungarian (complete). The second in English (extracts). The English extracts contain a number of reports of tanks &tc., memorably the revolutionaries' reports of fighting in Parliament Square on the 6th, and fighting in Cspel. Around the 28/29th October Radio Kossuth was occupied by its employees and broadcast as Radio Free Kossuth for a while. If you'd like I could probably dig up some RFE/RA transcripts and add one or two. Unfortunately the translators (US Government) would still hold copyright. Fifelfoo 23:18, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think that information about these commentaries would be a good addition to this article. In particular if the name of the commentator could be found, since here career as a commentator was cut short one way or another. Evertype 08:47, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)

April 21 edits

1. "The revolt was suppressed by the ÁVH assisted by Soviet troops." I reversed the order of the organisations. My historical reading, particularly of the official Kadar "White Book" series, and on Budapest Central Workers Council/Soviet negotiations place much more emphasis on the role of Soviet troops in supressing the revolt. The AVH appears to have been completely dysfunctional from the 25th. Additionally the (effectively) AVH battalions set up after November 6 were irrelevent. Thus I reversed the word order to correct the emphasis.
2. Caused "revolt" and "rebels" to agree, thus "revolt" and "revolters" in my edit.
3. "firm up pro-Warsaw pact governments" is better expression. I still believe "Moscow line" is more accurate, but this is more elegant and simply expressed.
4. Credibility of the Soviet/Chinese historiography of the revolution. It isn't. It should be stated. Its a historiography that's explicitly rejected by most specialists. Rephrased the POV to indicate that it is the POV held by professional historians of Hungary 1956.Fifelfoo 06:45, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Picture

How come the picture subtitle is "Hungarians investigate a disabled Soviet tank" but the filename of the picture is "Hungarians_attack_tank_.jpg"? I think the subtitle should be changed.

The file name is wrong and should be changed. The caption is correct and should remain. They're not attacking it. The Hungarian attacks on tanks in 1956 look very different. For one, the people in the photo are milling aimlessly around, not trying to hit the exposed fuel cap with molotov cocktails. Fifelfoo 05:13, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This picture of the soviet T-34 Tank is indeed, not getting attacked by the hungarians. The picture is actually used on several other pages on wikipedia such as; T-34. In those pages it is discribed as being examined by curious citizens. Johny Bravo 19:53, 15 Nov 2005

Role of the AVH in the revolution

Items in debate

1. Number of deaths at the Radio station caused by AVH
2. Number of deaths at Parliament square massacre caused by AVH
3. To what extent the AVH was a force in being after Nagy's release from Party captivity around the 26th
4. To what extent was the AVH a force in being after the renewal of battle on November 4
5. Of the AVH, Soviet Military, and Soviet State Security forces; which were responsible for the majority of arrests after the second ceasefire?

More than three people were killed at the Radio Station on the 23rd, the battle lasting until early morning. Quite a number of people were killed at Parliament square, but I'd have to dig out eye witness accounts to give a number better than my recollected 50-200. After 26/10 the AVH collapsed along with the party. After November 4, remaining AVH forces were scraps, and barely organised. The Soviet Military, and Soviet State Security forces were primarily responsible for the period of reaction, mainly due to the total disintegration of the AVH, see, for example, the arrest of the Greater Budapest Workers Council. Fifelfoo 04:45, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NPOV Terms

Although personally, I think the uprising is justified given the dictatorship. However, should we remove some of the potentially NPOV terms? For example, the term freedom fighter should be replaced with revolutionaries instead. --Hurricane111 00:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

May I chime in on this idea of renaming the freedom fighters to revolutionaries? Time magazine in 1956 chose the Hungarian Freedom Fighter as its Man of the Year. In 1986, President Reagan designated October 20th National Hungarian Freedom Fighter's Day in his Proclamation 5555. Although 'revolutionaries' isn't necessarily incorrect, we've called them 'freedom fighters' for the past 50 years. Mrsilona 06:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

And for quite some time in another part of the world they were publically known as "Horthyite Clerical-Fascist Arrow-Crossers", should we use that too? Ronald Reagan, a former US actor suffering the development of a serious degenerative condition, is not an appropriate source to determine naming conventions. Fifelfoo 22:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Very interesting and quite rude, Fifelfoo. You seem to be a strong proponent of revisionist history -- or you have a problem with the facts. What say you to the BBC? Is their usage of the term 'freedom fighter' also wrong? Because that's what they called these people as events were unfolding. Or CNN. Do you have a problem with CNN as well calling them 'freedom fighters'? Or the Embassy of Hungary. You must have a problem that they call them 'freedom fighters' as well. Or even About.com's description of the Hungarian Revolution Memorial in Boston. 'Freedom fighters' there as well. Or perhaps you care to quibble with Martin Luther King, Jr. when he said, "We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." And, again, you left off Time. magazine -- who proclaimed 1957's man of the year to be the Hungarian FREEDOM FIGHTER, not revolutionary. I could go on and on. Care to try again?

Yes, IP user, I have a big problem with the term Freedom fighter. Its a US term. Strangely enough the revolution happened in Hungary. I wouldn't trust the BBC's description of the revolutionaries at all. Nor would I trust a memorial erected by the US sponsored Council of Captive Nations in the US. You're exhibiting a peculiar parochialism centred in the United States. Read more Hungarian accounts by people who were there.Fifelfoo 00:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is this a debate? 'Freedom Fighter' is obviously a POV term. 'Revolutionary' is obviously a NPOV term. Why is it relevent what Reagan, Time or anyone else said as propaganda at the height of the Cold War? I am genuinely perplexed. This is an encylopaedia, not a soapbox. Badgerpatrol 02:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the term freedom fighter is accurate and should be used since it wasn't coined by Time or Reagan, but is a literal translation of what the Hungarians called themselves. They called themselves "szabadság harcosok", szabadság meaning freedom and harcosok meaning fighters. While revolutionaries is also correct, the two terms should be used interchangeably. SarcasticBard 08:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the version I reverted to is more NPOV because:

• It is true that the revolt was primarily an anti-Soviet one, but without going into too much detail about what else it was, I think it's best to just say "a revolt".

It is clear, the revolt was anti-Soviet--Nixer 19:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• "Pro-Nazi" is inflammatory. "Extreme nationalist right-wing" gives the idea to everyone.

Ok, may be "ultra-nationalist" or "ultra-right nationalist" ? --Nixer 19:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• Some of the population was motivated by left-wing ideology. I see no reason to remove that.

Yes, they may be was motivated by the left-wing ideology, but this has no connection with the use of word "revolution". Revolution can be right-wing, for example, modern revolution in Ukraine.--Nixer 19:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• Unless there are contemporary professional sources which contemplate a clerical and fascist revolution (which I greatly doubt), I see no reason to remove the clause at the end of that paragraph either.KissL 19:34, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Why contemporary? It is not so interesting matter now. There could be different points of view, and all of them mentioned. And what a connection with the censorship in the USSR?--Nixer 19:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The connection is with censorship in Hungary not in the USSR. Primary sources that consider this option seriously (in fact all primary sources until 1989) were subject to censorship (to say the least; to say they were products of the propaganda machine wouldn't be much farther from the truth). This is definitely not something we can leave out.

And as for "it is not so interesting now"... this article is about this event, so whatever is relevant is interesting too. Also, we in Hungary think it is still interesting...

KissL 20:21, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This is, by far, the most putrid account of the revolution that I've ever read. The political correctness of this article makes me want to puke. Revisionist or not, it is a simple fact that the Soviet Union was the aggressor for a wide variety of geo-political reasons, and "freedom fighters" has become a very accepted term for the heroes who made "the ultimate sacrifce" (to borrow an american term) for their country's freedom. I find it strange that those who can so vehemently support George W. Bush's position on Iraq have an issue with any movement past or present that wants to promote "liberty and justice for all". Rik 08/23/06

Invited/Sent

I changed the entry "Soviet troops were invited into Hungary on two occasions, " into Soviet troops were sent into Hungary on two occasions, " but the change was reverted. That's okay since I'm just not as experienced as the others, I just wanted to explain that I did so because in my opinion "invited" might not be correct. True they were invited by the pro-Moscow government, but hardly by Hungarians citizens. After all it's all matter of semantics, but I thought that 'sent' word would have been better since it's always true no matter the point of view.

'Invited' is indeed truly bizarre. Especially in the context of Kadar, who wasn't even in Budapest (where the original government was still seated) when he got appointed secretary-general (wasn't he in Russia at the time?).

--24.7.107.138 05:05, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK "Invited" is correct. While Soviet preparations for an intervention, Andras Hegedeus and Enro Gero invited the Soviet troops in to assist in restoring order on the night of the 23rd. At that time they were the legitimate government. On 3/4 November Janos Kadar went missing from the Nagy cabinet, and people were worried. It appears that he was involved in negotiations with the Soviet party, inside Hungary. Kadar made his invitation while still a member of the Nagy cabinet, and, after having been appointed by the legal President. For these reasons invite is correct. Fifelfoo 22:49, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

'Invited' would imply being asked to assist by a governmental body (or a person) in the position to ask such things. Kadar being appointed as *deputy* PM by the president was clearly not in the position to speak for the entire government in that position. He was in fact speaking on behalf of the counter-government which he lead and which only got legitimacy by the 'invited' intervention by the Soviets and the rest of the Warsaw pact. I think "invited" is an awfuly cynical term for what really happened: the Soviet Union obviously wanted to re-establish a government friendly to it by force and Kadar provided them with it. It would be similar to saying that US forces entered Iraq on invitation by Ahmed Challabi.

I'd suggest changing the sentence to something like: 'Soviet troops entered Hungary on two occasions, both times to firm up pro-Warsaw Pact governments that nominally invited them. --Isk s 02:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

"Nominally" beautifully captures the formalism and bureaucracy involved in both "invitiations." We should retain the word "invitation" however, as the Party spent alot of effort achieving those purely formal invitations to hide its shame. Fifelfoo 04:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the change, feel free to edit me mercilessly :) if I did something wrong. KissL 12:55, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. Isk s

Dear Anon, could you cite some sources and discuss things first if you want a huge section on entirely relevant, neutral and encyclopedic information on the "... eruption of nascent and violent Hungarian antisemitism" and "a nation cooperating in the deportation and murder [...]". Alternatively, just go learn some basic culture: labelling an entire nation like this is not acceptable anywhere in the English-speaking world, let alone in an encyclopedia. KissL 10:28, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Fiftieth anniversary

Will anything be done to develop this article for the 50th anniversary next year?

There are areas that could be developed - links and references to the parallel events in Poland which led to Władysław Gomułka being returned to power, the Suez Crisis (which definitely complicated matters), the reburial of Imre Nagy in 1989 and pre- and post-1989 views of the Revolution.

Horthy and Holocaust: not related

I really can't see why the Horthy regime has to be mentioned here. I don't think the events before WWII are in such a strong connection with 1956 that they have to be mentioned in this article; however, the first paragraph of the overview was about that. Now I've commented out that paragraph and moved with the second one to Why it happened. As Wikipedia is free, you can revert if you disagree. But I'd rather suggest discussing it. --torzsmokus

I concurr with your edit Fifelfoo 23:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

What the revolutionaries wanted

Is there any statistical data or the section constitutes an original research?--Nixer 20:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Statistical research is generally not considered to be historically significant, see hermeneutics, historical and historiography. Literary sources (ie documents written at the time) are very clear on what the revolutionaries wanted. They were, after all, demands written and published by revolutionaries. Fifelfoo 22:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Censorship

Yes, there maybe was a censorship in Hungary, but there are other countries, where participants of the events could publish.--Nixer 21:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Radio Free Europe Advice

This counter-revolution was encouraged by the CIA's propaganda outlet and falsely asserted that western aid would be delivered.

"Counter-revolution" is perjorative, 1956 was an uprising. Eyewitnesses describe the uprising of 23 Oct. 1956 as completely spontaneous, broadly supported by many and for many reasons. It is true that the West behaved shamefully, in a lethally inept way at every step. Certainly the West was not so competent as to orchestrate a successful uprising on one day and then promptly be so incompetent as to misread, mishandle and mislead the entire affair from that point onward - this talent would not appear until decades later ;) - The above is an often-heard accusation, but it is wrong - you simply cannot have it both ways. Istvan 13:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand your position on this, but I've heard tapes of the RFE broadcasts and, from a native speaker of English POV, it is pretty obvious that the west (USA) was encouraging the uprising and promising support. Unfortunately, oil (aka the Suez Canal) diverted them from their ideals and they decided to look after their own economic interests instead. The Hungarians were forgotten again and communism prevailed for another 33 years. Rik 08/23/06

Crushing the Revolution

I have added a cause to why The Soviets didnt allow a revolt to happen and I do believe that it is very relative and needs to be added.

The lines I have added are these

Another significant cause was that during World War 2, Hungary was Germanies ally. On the day of the invasion of the Soviet Union no less then 400,000 hungarian troops invaded the Soviet Union. Almost ever aspect of Soviet policy following World War 2 would be based on the lessons learned during the war. The Soviet Union hade learnt the hard way what happens if you neglect or ignore curent events. And it was not going to give a former invader any chans what so ever to attack the Soviet Union in any way again.

You must look to it from a Soviet perspective. And that is :

Hungary was a huge ally of the germans and hade played a significant part in the war. A war which hade the objective to inslave the whole Soviet Union and turn its people into a slave labour force to serve the Master race. The Axis went forward with such brutality and commited such massive acts of atrocities that ALL Soviets vowed that it must never happen again. The Axis during the war took as many Soviet women between the ages of 15-25 they could get their hands on and sent them all to brothels or slave camps or factories in greater Germany. Where little children were used by the axis to clear mine fields. Were people where executed just for being born. And where Huge parts of the country was destroyed. Concentration camps and furnaces and bonfires, this was what the Axis showed the Soviet people, this is what the Axis knew that the Soviet people deserved for being bolshevistic jews. Whole towns and cities were burnt to the ground. People were starved, rapied and beaten on an industrial scale. No war hade such hatred. No war hade such absolutism. No war hade such brutality as the war between the Axis and the Soviets.

After living through such a war were there was nothing but destruction and death, hatered and more hatered. A war where 28 million Soviets would died. It becomes very clear why The Soviet Union did not want to repeat such a thing. They did not want to give the smallest chans of it hapening again. And this is why they could not let a former invader roll out of the Soviet sphere of influence.

Deng

None of this comes up in the minutes of the relevent Presidium meetings. Zhukov, who could be expected to run a GPW line was actually anti-intervention (due to his broad reformism, and dislike for unnecessary military action where the SU would be unable to deploy overwhelming force). The anti-Nagy line ran in the Presidium was a Molotov line following core stalinist interests, not a nationalist line. Khrushchev's own opinion (regardless of his votes which were opportunist) can be read in his liquidation of the Molotov anti-reformist group in 1957.Fifelfoo 04:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Fiflefoo your rewrite is very nice and i think it more then enough explains the reason for a Soviet intervention. But here in this discussion it should be absolutely clear that all Soviet policy after ww2 was based on the experience of the war. When people die left and right of you, when mass extermination is commited when there is nothing but hate, it will leave an impresion on you and your way of thinking. Be it directly or indirectly the war and the reality of the absolutism in it played a huge part in the minds of all the involved on the Soviet side during this conflict. Deng 07-02-06 07.35 CET

I assume you mean the 3rd eschelon east asiatic divisions in the second intervention, recruited from population centres which never saw German occupation? Or perhaps you mean the 1st and 2nd eschelon European Russian divisions which negotiated spontaneous ceasefires during the first intervention? Fifelfoo 07:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

No no you miss understand. It dosent matter who saw battle in ww2 the people all knew what hade happened, everyone was affected by what hade happened. No one didnt know what hade happened. All the brutality that hade be shown by the Axis to the Soviets during the war was known by everyone. If you cant uderstand that then I cant explain it to you. All Soviet policy after the war was based on the reality that was experienced during the war.

Deng 07-02-06 18.50 CET

Please don't talk about and edit articles on things you clearly have no idea of. "Fascist" Hungary in 1941??? Learn history again if you were tought from Stalinist books... And just FYI, Russia has apologized for 1956 since then.... 195.56.95.83 21:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It is you who must study Hungary added 400,000 troops on the day of the invasion of the Soviet Union 400,000 is the same nummber of US soldiers killed during ww2 and I have studied in Sweden I think maybe it is you who hasent studied enough.

Deng 07-02-06 22.25 CET

What has the definition of fascism do with the invasion of SU? Hungary was not a fascist state in 1941, and it's just basic (kindergarten level) history. Noone says invading SU was a good thing, in fact it was the biggest mistake of Hungarian foreign policy in the 20th century, but your statements are false, and what's more, the contemporary Soviet leaders cleary did not think of Hungary's ww2 role. I won't revert your text any more (I guess someone else will do soon), only the word "fascist". 195.56.95.83 21:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

First of all I wasent the one who put the word facist there so your anger is waaaaaaaaay missdirected all i wanted to post as one of the causes was that after the war all Soviet policy was based on leassons learnt during the war.

Deng 07-02-06 22.40 CET

Death Toll

I'm sorry, but 25,000 to 50,000 dead Hungarians and 7,000 dead Sovets is completely false.

According to "The Soviet Union and the 1956 Crises in Poland and Hungary: Reassessments and New Findings" in Journal of Contemporary History by Mark Kramer, the casualities are as follows:

Hungarians: 2502 dead and 19,226 wounded

Sovet Army: 720 dead and 1540 wounded

The anonymous user who posted these 'revisions' is also busy trying to 'revise' the Holodomor page. It's necessary to watch this character and prevent his agenda pushing. Dietwald 09:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the data he posted is correct. Clearly, you have not even checked the sources provided above. This page will be reverted back to the correct data.

Above anonymous comment was written by the same person as the original entry. This user, also known as Zvesda, is busy trying to revise down any numbers that indicate the extend of mass murder by totalitarian governments. He is currently active at the Holodomor page, where he has also been sanctioned for violating the Thre Revert Rule for whole-sale page vandalism. Dietwald 09:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

1956 Olympic boycott, Soviet-Hungarian water polo game, defections

Without posting or discussion, anonymous User:68.67.131.75 ("Revert to correct information") deleted the following paragraph:

The Melbourne Olympics were underway in November and December 1956. The Soviet handling of the Hungarian revolution led to a boycott by Spain, the Netherlands and Switzerland. Many Hungarian athletes vowed never to return home, and received much spectator support at the games. The eventual Hungary-Soviet Union confrontation occurred in the semi-final game of the water polo tournament; the match was extremely violent, and the pool reputedly turned red with blood. The Hungarians led the Soviets 4-0 before the game was called off in the final minute to prevent angry Hungarians in the crowd from rioting. The Hungarian team continued to win the Olympic gold medal. In total, 45 Hungarians, half the delegation, defected to the West after the Olympics.

I contributed the above paragraph. I anticipated that it needed editing; it's too wordy, now that I read it over, given the placement between two brief sentences. Or perhaps placement in a different section (although these sections are chronological, not topical). But what reasons to delete?

1. Off topic? Three European countries boycotted the Olympics due to the Soviet actions. Wikipedia references the Olympic boycott of 1990 in the Soviet war in Afghanistan article, with a link to American-led boycott of the 1980 Summer Olympics.
2. Sport is not significant? The water polo match was a Soviet-Hungarian confrontation on an international stage. It represented a response to the crisis, from citizens of each side, and a diplomatic response. As a result, began the tradition of the athletes mingling at the closing ceremony, not marching in as teams.
3. POV? So, add a Soviet version of the incident...
4. Verifiable? ABC news, Sunday Times of London, CNN. The world press still remembers, so maybe it belongs in Wikipedia.

I propose something along the lines of this:

At the Melbourne Olympics, the Soviet handling of the Hungarian uprising led to a boycott by Spain, the Netherlands and Switzerland. A confrontation between Soviet and Hungarian teams occurred in the semi-final game of the water polo tournament; the match was extremely violent, and was called off in the final minute to quell fighting among spectators. Some members of the Hungarian Olympic delegation defected after the games.

I would appreciate comment (even if from anonymous IP addresses). -- Ryanjo 01:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Another delete without discussion by anonymous User:69.164.93.83. I'll just keep reverting until the nameless ones provide more information... -- Ryanjo 17:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Ryanjo, the paragraph you've suggested:

"At the Melbourne Olympics, the Soviet handling of the Hungarian uprising led to a boycott by Spain, the Netherlands and Switzerland. A confrontation between Soviet and Hungarian teams occurred in the semi-final game of the water polo tournament; the match was extremely violent, and was called off in the final minute to quell fighting among spectators. Some members of the Hungarian Olympic delegation defected after the games."

is excellent and, in my opinion, completely neutral. Rik 08/23/06

...the myth that Eastern Europe..chose Communism

Greetings, I am an infrequent editor of 1956 Hungarian Revolution. I have some concern with ThePartyVan's edit: The myth that the Eastern European nations chose Communism for themselves was shattered, at the end of the Overview section. As a result, I have temporarily commented it out, and invite discussion. I think that the "myth" and "shattered" may be an overstatement. As this talk section, the article itself, and the references state, there remains some controversy about whether the Hungarian revolt was anti-Soviet, anti-Communist, nationalistic with a socialist political agenda, or a mixture. The Soviet contention that they were "invited" by their puppets has already been debunked in the article in a less contentious way. I think that the same idea could be restated by something like: Soviet actions clearly showed that, regardless of the national ambitions of the Warsaw pact client nations, armed force would be used to maintain regimes that reflected monolithic Soviet-style communism. (Somebody clean it up for me...it sounds too academic...)--Ryanjo 01:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine. I was just trying to show how the Soviet Union was trying to impose their influence on other nations. --ThePartyVan 21:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Done, thanks --Ryanjo 02:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Background

The article starts with the event itself: "On 23 October 1956..." This ignores the recent history and motivations of the rebels. Could someone knowledgeable add some information on the background and causes for the revolution? Twinxor t 03:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The Overview section is a only quick outline of the sections that follow. Starting with a brief sentence might help, such as: Political changes in the post-Stalinist Soviet Union, nationalist movements in the socialist parties of eastern Europe, and social unrest due to poor economic conditions for the Hungarian populace created conditions for a popular uprising in October 1956.

Most of the details are already there: the Causes section that follows the The revolution section tries to cover the dissent in different segments of the population that led to the revolt. The Prelude section includes political events that led up to the uprising in Hungary. So I think that the inciting events are covered. You could make a case that the "Causes" section should preceed "The revolution" timeline, but it could also be said that introducing the groups and their actions first (the Soviets, the Hungarian party, the students, etc.), and then explaining motives after in the "Causes" section, is a common practice in historical works.

I suggest adding a sentence to the "Overview", and leaving the rest the same, or move the "Causes" section, or expand it...okay with me, either way. Regards,--Ryanjo 20:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Overview

This article seems to downplay the fact that the major reason for the revolt was due to the fact that the country was under Soviet occupation. The entire article seems to have been edited to downplay this and overall the article missed the essence of what the revolution was about. I would argue that this in itself if a form of inserting POV. Attila226 19:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Quoting the first sentence: "The 1956 Hungarian Revolution, also known as the Hungarian Uprising or simply the Hungarian Revolt, was an anti-Soviet revolt in Hungary..." The article goes on to detail killing of Soviet symapthizers and soldiers by the populace. The rest of the article is in the details of the revolt: actions of the partcipants, their probable motivations, world events that influenced and resulted from the 1956 uprising. So it really isn't necessary to restate the obvious, since the anti-Soviet nature is a given. To bring it up as the root cause of every action would be repetitive and more suitable to a propaganda piece.

Also, it is customary to Place new comments after existing ones as the box at the top of this page recommends. Ryanjo 23:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I will make sure to add future comments to the bottom of the discussion area.

As for the article itself, it is rather obvious to state that it was an "anti-Soviet revolt". However, I don't see any mention that the Hungarians were under Soviet occupation. Instead the article mentions "Political changes in the post-Stalinist Soviet Union, nationalist movements in the socialist parties of eastern Europe, and social unrest due to poor economic conditions for the Hungarian populace created conditions for a popular uprising in October 1956." This completely ignores the root cause of the revolution. Attila226 00:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the words in the article that say "that the Hungarians were under Soviet occupation" are less direct than yours. But is it "downplaying" to state (quotes from the article):

• Soviet actions clearly showed that, regardless of the national ambitions of the Warsaw Pact client nations, armed force would be used to maintain regimes that reflected monolithic Soviet-style communism.
• Soviet troops had occupied Hungary since 1944; firstly as an invading army and occupation force, then at the nominal invitation of the Hungarian government, and finally as required by their membership in the Warsaw Pact.
• Although widely believed that Hungary's declaration to exit the Warsaw Pact caused the Soviet military to crush the Revolution, minutes of the meetings of the Presidium of the Soviet Communist Party indicate that this declaration was only one of several contributing factors.
• The Presidium of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union sought to maintain a Hungarian government which was controlled by a like minded party.
• Soviet international relations in central Europe were not only dictated by a desire for empire, but by a fear of invasion from the West.

My understanding is that one of Wikipedia's principle is NPOV - neutral point of view. So I think that statements such as those above are not "downplaying" the facts, they are expanding and explaining the details (perhaps a bit academically).

My suggestion is that you make an edit to clarify or emphasize what is mis-stated, and see what others do with it. Regards, --Ryanjo 01:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

MEFESZ??

Throughout the events of 1956 the MEFESZ played an important role in the uprising/revolution. Why is there no mention of it anywhere in this article?? Rik 08/23/06

I know it was a student organization, one of the few independent of the party, but not much other information. Please provide some content and references for the article. Ryanjo 02:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is a link to an interesting article:

http://www.rev.hu/archivum/rutgerse.html

This should provide some perspective on the integral role that MEFESZ and other student organizations played during the revolution. Unfortunately, a great deal of the information I have is anecdotal from people who were actually there, but I've got enough non-primary source information to put something together. I'll post it here first for feedback. Rik 08/29/06

Rewrite of the Prelude section

Fellow Editors: I have just replaced the entire Prelude section with a section called Prelude to the uprising. I have attempted to keep all the content that was contributed earlier, although in different places due to new subsections. Since this was such a large edit, the previous section is intact below the new section, just "commented out", to allow anyone to easily review or restore any of the old section's information. My motivation for this extensive edit was several recent comments (read the above topics) that the article lacked clarity as to the real reasons for the uprising. Trying to adhere to NPOV is very tough here -- I am not Hungarian (not even European), but the intensity of feeling in the references available is remarkable. So edit away (just have references). Regards, Ryanjo 02:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I think your edit is fine, and you have properly incorporated all the relevant information from the previous version. I have removed the old version you had commented out: anyone interested can still view it by looking at the revision before your edit. KissL 14:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The edits are good; more narrative and less choppy (and they left my stuff in - good work! ;)Istvan 04:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice. Rik 08/29/06

Article Improvement Drive

OK, you all know we have an important anniversary coming up. I believe it right that this article have a shot at being featured article on 23 October, 2006. Rather than wait till the last minute to petition this status, it may be wise to start a more concerted process of improvement now, 2 months ahead of the anniversary, when we have the opportunity to build on recent momentum. Please visit Wikipedia:Article Creation and Improvement Drive and register your vote so that this story can be told properly on its 50th anniversary. Istvan 04:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)