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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Xodmoe (talk | contribs) at 23:26, 18 September 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Historical dates

Is it possible to state in NPOV that the concept of Lilith in the Bible was created by Kabbalists at a much later date than Genesis was written, and therefore the concept could not "originally" exist in the Bible, but was simply a much later idea/interpretation of what was written? Lilith is a Kabbalistic view of Genesis, possibly borrowing from Mesopotamian (or other) myth. Specifying the dates of writings that were created that first explicitly mentioned Lilith would help.

The article states: "there are many Old Testament passages that are said to refer to Lilith, including those in Genesis 2:21 and 4:8 which refer to the creation of a man and woman before the creation of Eve.". However, the King James versions have Genesis 2:21 saying "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;", and Genesis 4:8 saying "And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.".

I can't figure how either of these can possibly be interpreted as saying that God created a man and woman before creating Eve. Anyone out there know the correct references?

Mprudhom 22:20, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Genesis 1:27 in the King James Bible states "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." redcountess 19:05, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)

Just a thought, Cain killed Abel. Then after he fled to the land of Nod and found a wife there. Read the story, it's there.

It's because interpreting the Creation accounts in Genesis as being a single creation account can be percieved as requiring there to be a woman before a woman was made from adam's rib ("man and woman he created them ......... then taking a rib..."). CheeseDreams 00:33, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Genesis 2:27???

The article states that the discrepency in Genesis may be "a careless weaving together of two discrete biblical creation myths, as the Bible describes man being created in both Genesis 1:26 and 2:27."

However, in the King James Version of the bible that they provide a link to, there is no 2:27. Chapter 2 stops at verse 25. Anyone know what these mysterious missing verses say, or was it just a typo?

it's a typo. It should be Genesis 2:7. dab (ᛏ) 17:00, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
removed the 'careless' though. that word asks for trouble and helps nothing. dab (ᛏ) 20:18, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)


I'm surprised that no one has actually thought about the fact that chapters and verses weren't there in the original Hebrew text. The different chapters of Genisis are commonly thought to have been different books by different authors. Genesis 1 is God writing about the creation of everything and Genesis 2 is Adam's account which, of course, focuses more on the creation and history of Man. Not only that, but who's to say that Adam didn't originally have the psyche of both male and female and God separated the one from the other in the creation of Eve? It's not a set of two different myths being put together, but of two separate views of the same Creation.

Except that there are contradictions (what do chapters/verses have to do with anything? they are just used to point to specific passages). e.g. Genesis 1:9, dry land has to be separated from water before life is possible, vs. 2:6, land is originally dry, and has to be watered before life is possible. dab (ᛏ) 16:33, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I fail to see how that is a contradiction. First, the Earth was a formless mass of water. God gave it form and made land on it. At that time, there was no water on the land (no springs, rivers, etc.) but there was the water that the land came from (the oceans/seas), so God formed the landlocked water systems.

I am a native Hebrew speaker and I have great fascination particularly with the Lilith legend/myth. I won't refer to the King James bible version because I personally found it a bit misleading from the orginal text (personal opinion, nothing more).

In the first chapter of the book of Genesis there is a passage stating that god created man in his own image, that he created them male and female. According to Jewish beliefs there is not God and Satan, there is only God and he is both good and evil. The general thought about this is that the male (Adam) got the good side of God and that the female (Lilith) got the evil side of God. Then God banished her to the land of Nod (also where Cain was banished to after killing his brother Abel).

From there Lilith is mostly mentioned in the Jewish mystical part and not in the bible itself. She is said to be of demonic powers and that she has joined with a the king of demons - Ashmadai (אשמדאי), to whom she has given hundreds of demon children. Adam complained to God that his wife left him and God sent 3 angels to find anad retrieve her. The Angels found her but Lilith chose to remain with Ashmadai. As a price to pay for remaining with this demon king, Lilith had to accept that the angels would kill a hundred of her children every day. Fearing that Lilith would want vengeance for her childrens' deaths the angels made her promise not to even touch babies who bear a locket with the three angels' names.

You could also find a mentioning of Lilith in the Gilgamesh Prologues.

On a different note, the role-playing games company White-Wolf has published a game called Vampire: The Masquerade for several years now. They took the story of Lilith and combined it with some other characters from the ealy chapters of the Bible and created a whole world out of it. In their version (which is just fantasy of course) After Lilith was banished to the land of Nod she found ways to create her own supernatural powers, she created Blood magic. Then when Caine (notice the added 'e' to the usual spelling) was banished to the land of Nod, he found Lilith and she provided him with everything he needed - But that wasn't enough for him, and he wanted to be able to provide himself so he asked her to teach him her dark arts. After many beggings, Lilith finally succumbed to him and taught him. Caine fell into this a lot deeper than Lilith did. After seeing this, God has sent angels to him one by one to try and redeem him, to say to him that if he is truely sorry for what he did then God would forgive him and he could come to heaven to rest. Caine rejected each and everyone of the angels because he said he doesn't want god to forgive him, he wants himself to forgive him. Each angel he rejected put a curse on him. Finally coming to God himself putting a curse on him, which is said to be the most powerful of curses that has been cast on him. Like that Caine became the first vampire. The story goes on and on about Caine's journey upon lands and his breaking of the curses and siring his own children in the acts of blood. Then on the first cities and if you want to know more, really read "The Book of Nod" from White-Wolf.

I hope I helped, there are many myths and theories about this subject.

Couldn't it be that the original myth was similar to a Greek myth mentioned by Plato where there were human beings with both the male and female parts, until gods decided to split them in two? Seing from this point of view, god appears to have created man as both a male and female being, and then he took a piece of the man (the rib) and with that created the woman. I think this would explain all.193.205.213.166 15:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Talmud and Zohar

Does any one know where in the Talmud or Zohar Lilith is mentioned?

Gilgamesh Prologues

Does anyone know what these are? Gilgamesh has an article but does not mention any 'Prologues'... I made a bit in Talk:Gilgamesh too in case anyone can shed some light here..

just a quick note on Hieronymus: then name links to a disambig -- i assume the article Hieronymus Wolf, historian, but due to the religious nature of his art i thought it might refer to Bosch, and hell what do i know, any of the other ones. Anyone know for sure which one is referred to and can fix the link to link to the correct page? TastemyHouse 00:06, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Considering the context it would almost have to be the Greek historian Hieronymus of Cardia. DreamGuy 23:42, July 26, 2005 (UTC)


Original research

Today a massive number of changes were made to this article that are completely inaccurate. The only alleged supporting evidence for it were the addition of two different links to the same website run by the person who placed the information here. The same individual (as traced through the anonymous account he used) created an article for himself (that is now going through VfD based upon vanity/nonnotability/promotional etc.) on which claimed himself to be an expert on the myth of Lilith without any supporting evidence. His changes completely violated the Wikipedia:No original research policy here at Wikipedia, not to mention Wikipedia:Verifiability, and so forth.

I removed the additions, and now an editor well known for showing up to undo whatever I do without looking into it (see history of this article as well as Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gabrielsimon) has gone and reverted it multiple times without comment, with only the claim "the evidence is in the article" which is absolutely wrong, as there is no citation for any of these new claims.

If you think there is evidence for these claims, provide that evidence... Otherwise you need to stop making the change. (But then of course I note that he is doing the same changing without sources thing on a few other articles lately, including Witchcraft and others, so of course my request that the editor follow policy here will unfortunately probably fall on deaf ears, but at least I tried.)DreamGuy 01:05, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

"without comment" is alughable, i stated why i made th e origional revert, and the second one, you just dont like what i did, so you complain./ hypocrite. Gabrielsimon 01:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

You made a comment, but it was less than useless for supporting the change that you made. Stop ignoring the important consideration here: that you have absolutely no evidence to back the claims you put back into this article. Please provide actual scholarly sources to support these claims or stop putting the information in there. DreamGuy 02:14, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

you have no evidance to suppor t that its not true. please proove it Gabrielsimon 02:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

What have I said about playing nice? The onus is on you to back up your statements with evidence, not for people to disprove it. Stop being confrontational and just answer the question. --khaosworks 02:23, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon, if you've actually even read the "library" article (the one with the pictures) you'll find that it's full of new age 'Kabbala' crap mixed in with a bit of gnosticism... None of which has any evidence to back it up, just made-up beliefs by that guy --81.154whatever, 27th July 05
Gabrielsimon, if you want to contribute, go to a library and cite literature. "you have no evidance to suppor t that its not true." does not fly at all, this is childish. You add statements, it's up to you to provide references for them. If questioned, academic references, citing what scholar said what, when and where. dab (ᛏ) 11:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

seeking Lilitu

the thing conspicuously absent is information as to actual attestation of the Lilitu name. All we have is "Babylonian". When is the name attested? What are these "storm demon" inscriptions? As it is, Isaiah may well be among the earliest testimonies. dab (ᛏ) 18:22, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

For more positive information about Lilith read Alex Gordon's Book 'The Nine Deadly Venoms'.

goddess

Dreamguy, what is the difference between a goddess and a demoness in Assyrian polytheism? I do not think there is a clear distinction between minor goddesses, and demonesses, so the dispute about Lilitu as goddess vs. demoness is really quite mistaken, semantically. Change goddess to demoness if you like, it's really the same to me. dab (ᛏ) 20:17, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Goddesses were worshipped. Demons were avoided. Speculation about Lilith being a goddess is unsupported by the evidence and plays into the hands of those people who want to rewrite history to make later figures of myth and legend to be preshistoric goddess figures who were benevolent and good into those darn patriarchs took over. DreamGuy 21:13, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about your terminology there. Polytheism doesn't have that black-and-white good/evil dichotomy. gods and demons were powerful beings, both had to be pacified, and their wrath had to be avoided, while their favour was welcome. That said, see the previous section: We are still lacking a reference for a single pre-Isaiah attestation of Assyrian Lilitu. Where is the name mentioned? Until we get that, this whole goddess/demoness thing hangs in thin air. What "patriarchs"? Afaik, Assyrian religion was gradually replaced with Persian religion, not with Judaism. I really don't see how it is suggestive to say that there were goddesses in 7th century BC Assyria. dab (ᛏ) 05:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

There was some evidence of a pagan goddess cult devoted to Lilith or other transfigurations across Europe. Many scholars believed the close resemblance of Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian religion is alike European paganism. The association of her with demon worship or the concept of goddesses, Lilith took a new role in some Neo-Paganism of European and Middle Eastern neo-Pagan groups. Her image as a demonic-goddess of physical harm is discussed in some black metal rock songs. However, most pagan followers in the Judeo-Paganism and political activists of the Feminist movements disagree and said Lilith was a righteous angel that became affiliated with anything evil by the male chauvinist attitudes of monotheism. If the small percentage of pagan or heathen cults in Europe had adapted Lilith as one of their own, she carries different names and descriptions, but there's a striking similarity with her and Ishtar, Gaia, Athena and Embla. Biblical studies contend Lilith was probably a radically different version of Adam's wife Eve. + 207.200.116.202 00:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Style

Is it just me, or does this article jump right into the subject without taking even a bit of time to establish context? If I knew anything about the subject I'd fix that, but I don't. Tualha (Talk) 22:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia becomes a joke

The article on Lilith is a perfect example of the absurdity of Wikipedia. Mix reality and myth, fact and speculation, until you have an incoherent mishmash of opinions interspersed with a little scholarship and the result is of no real value.

Another comment

Myths and legends are, and always have been, stories told over and over, reinterpreted by different generations, in different lands, by peoples with different agendas and tastes. The modern dilution of ancient legend into popular fiction and fantasy is just an extension of that, and no one who delves into ancient stories can ever really hope to find an absolute truth, at least non beyond the simple desires of Man. Legends are open to individual interpretation, and Wikipedia is anything but a joke. If you ever get lost in personal opinions and contradictory stories, just go back to older sources. Darrel.

Lilith in pop culture

Here's my opinion: if the concept of Lilith is involved in the article, then it should be placed in the section. However, an item does not belong in this list if it uses just the name or some minor myth concept (I.E. Eva, Capcom, etc.). I can understand the frustation that a lot of editors over here feel. Deckiller 01:36, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

This is getting out of hand. I'm going to put a notice in statng that "These four have been selected as direct usages of Lilith. Any others MUST be placed on the disambig page. Thank you". Deckiller 13:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


In the roleplaying game Vampire: The Masquerade, Lilith is said to be the sister and lover of both Abel and Cain (and the impetus for Cain's murder of Abel).

ya, thats just not right at all, i know very little about the "real" lilith but v:tm i do, i shail edit when i am less sleepy 07:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

lilith appears in the anime series 'evangelion' which has not been entered into the article. (unsigned comment by User:24.223.189.200)

Ive added the Lilith from Neon Genesis Evangelion in the popular culture section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Likelightoflies (talk • contribs)

  • Lilith (as the first wife of adam) is also mentioned in the blood line at Alchemy Gothic, look under Amzer -- Oatzy 21:00, 06 September 2006 (GMT)


This doesn't make any sense. What is anyone trying to prove by allowing references to video games to stay in the article, while a reference to an anime series is omitted? Condensed, they're virtually the same. You're cheating viewers out of impacting knowledge by misrepresenting the extent to which Lilith is referred.

"Here's my opinion: if the concept of Lilith is involved in the article, then it should be placed in the section. However, an item does not belong in this list if it uses just the name or some minor myth concept (I.E. Eva, Capcom, etc.)."

How is Lilith in the Castlevania series a concept that belongs in the article, when it's role in the series is far smaller than Lilith's role in the Evangelion series. Why would you people want to lie to viewers in this way, placing apples superior to oranges? -Biokinetica 04:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Characters that merely have the name of Lilith do not qualify. As much as EVAtards would say otherwise, EVA's Lilith really has no connection to the mythical Lilith other than the name; whereas Castlevania's Lilith is meant to be the mythical Lilith herself. Danny Lilithborne 23:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Do you really have to refer to people who are most likely just as intelligent as you are "EVAtards"? Do you really take pleasure in infantile name-calling of this sort? Is there a reason why you're supposedly running this article, beyond the fact that you don't respect anyone contributing to it? You can call me whatever disdainful name you want, but know that there is no sense or credible intelligence in it.

As for the mythical Lilith, just because she doesn't have breasts and a giant snake around her, she's not the mythical Lilith? Goodness forbid artistic license. They couldnt've been doing the same thing every idiot with a canvas in the Renaissance was doing - that's just impossible. -Biokinetica 09:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

  • if necessary, create a sub-article in analogy to References to Odin in popular culture. There is no point in mentioning video game characters and feminist magazines on this page. I don't care if "Castlevania's Lilith is meant to be the mythical Lilith herself" -- if Lilith is notable to Castlevania, let there be a reference on the Castlevania article; just mentioning something in your video game does not make your video game notable to a discussion of the thing mentioned. dab (ᛏ) 09:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Let it be known that there was no "nit-picking" here. If an argument concerning the interperatations and depictions of lilith in popular culture doesn't constitute a legitimate argument, then I havn't the slightest idea of what does. Answering replies with so much as a fairly well-disguised superiority complex won't get this project anywhere. I'm not exactly sure why you're endowed with the ability to decide who's 'just copying' with who's 'legitimate', but this isn't the case, nonetheless. I was under the assumption that your job was make sure articles in this project are filled with only factual evidence, but it seems as though you're taking it as an opportunity to define the subject at hand for yourself. Not only that, but you have little-to-no respect for contributors who make projects like Wikipedia possible. This encyclopedia isn't about you, it's about the people.

It seems as though logic isn't welcome in this article, and most likely not many others if this is any indication. This was never supposed to be an "argument" as you so define, as I don't make arguments over the internet for fun. My only wish was to not see readers get cheated out of useful knowledge that can be offered to them immediately. This encyclopedia makes itself seem to be the one place where a person can find the most comprehensive information in an instant, but I guess my hopes were held high. Contributing information here I see now will be just like all other media - reserved for the elite. Pardon my presence, I won't intrude upon that society again. -Biokinetica 06:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Romanization of Hebrew

[1] this looks like IPA; it is not recommendable to transliterate in IPA, let's use ISO 259 or something; besides, why is the text so different from what I copied from blueletterbible[2]? (my bad) dab (ᛏ) 17:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


Sentence in intro paragraph

The end of this paragraph read "The myth of Lilith as the first wife of Adam arose in the Middle Ages". I changed it to "She is often identified as the first wife of Adam, a myth that arose in the Middle Ages." I cannot imagine this would be controversial, but I will explain. As the sentence stood, there was an apparent reference to a specific myth ("The myth . . ."), but it had not yet been said that there was any such myth, so the referent of the phrase is unclear. (After all, theere could be multiple such myths.) This is merely a point of style. I changed it to specify the content of the myth (under the description "She is popularly identified as . . ."), and then noted that this legend--"this" now being well-defined-- arose in the Middle Ages.

To repeat: the sentence as it stood was not adequate. If my correction introduces another problem, correct that, don't simply revert it.

--User: Captain Wacky

It was obviously reverted in error. Don't be dense. --Scaife (Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 00:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

MegaloManiac 10:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The section on the Christian Bible...

What is myth about Zeus doing in the section about the Christian Bible? Take that out.

The god of the bible is Zeus. The one selected out of the many for monotheism.

Opening statement

Lilith is a female Mesopotamian night demon believed to harm male children.

Harm them how, exactly..? Physical harm, mental, or sexual assault...? This is quite ambiguous. This statement leaves too much to the imagination to be considered encyclopediac. -ZeroTalk 09:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Lilith and her Lovers

I can see that throughout the many articles displacing information regarding Lilith, that much confusion has come about as to her mate. According to the many sources that I have read, Lilith (after abandoning Adam, and yet whilst still married to him) mated with Samael (an angel of death, possible avatar of Satan) to produce over one hundred children (Lilin) per day.

However, some articles have stated that Lilith mated with Asmodai (opposed to Samael) when she flew to the Red Sea. Yet, it has been stated, in Jewish texts, that Asmodai was the child of Lilith's friend Naamah (an angel of prostitution) and Adam (conceived whilst Adam was still married to Lilith). Asmodai later went on to marry the LESSER LILITH (the daughter of Lilith and Samael); which is where the confusion is emerging from.

I have, thus, decided to edit the articles stating that Lilith (the original) mated with Asmodai.

If anyone has reason against this, please feel free to say so.

--Danny DeSio 12:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

what "original" Lilith? You need to state which specific texts have which version. There is no problem with contradictory sources, you just need to say which source states which. Do not attempt to edit towards a 'correct' version of the myth. Myths aren't 'correct' and do not have 'originals'. dab (ᛏ) 09:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Lilith as Adam's first wife

The passage in Genesis 1:27 — "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female he created them" (before describing a mate being made of Adam's rib and being called Eve in Genesis 2:22) is sometimes believed to be an indication that Adam had a wife before Eve.

There must be someone else out there who caught this before I did.

"...created he him; male and female created he them." The author of Genesis does not explicitly mention Eve OR Adam. Is there a specific difference between the standard Hebrew "Adam" meaning "man (or earth)" and the Adam who appears to arrive somewhat later (to English readers)?

When is the name "Adam" even first mentioned in "Genesis"? ...not until Chapter 2, verse 19 (KJV - English again):

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

If anyone reading this also understands the original Hebrew script of Genesis 2:19, it would help to know if it distinguishes between "man" and "Adam" in the same way that the English version does.

Only after Adam gave names to the animals and the Good Lord puts him to sleep do we read about the part with the rib surgery:

"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;" - Genesis 2:21

So what keeps a reader of any level of faith or intellect from applying the same logic to the proverbial "gander" as well as the "goose"?

Xodmoe 22:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

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