Talk:Propaganda

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2004-2005

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Photo Caption Correction

The photo containing a U.S. Army PSYOP humvee in Al Kut is incorrect. It is a 312th not the 350th PSYOP Company team (look at the left front of the vehicle for the identifier, the Marine article incorrectly identified the Army PSYOP vehicle). I know that particular vehicle in the photo and what a pain in the rear it was to maintain it.Virgil61 05:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

diversity of images

its pretty good already but id like to see some more non-war propaganda and perhaps reduce the dominance of US, Nazi, and Russian propaganda. There are zero examples from the so-called third world (based on my cursory glance) and no propaganda from not state actors. Savidan 11:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject?

Would there be an interest in a WikiProject Propaganda? -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 05:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

A Great Book on Propaganda

Distinguished social-psychologists Elliot Aronson and Anthony Pratkanis has written a very good book on propaganda titled "The Age of Propaganda: The Everyday Use and Abuse of Persuasion" (ISBN: 0805074031) PJ 01:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Main Image

Sorry mates, but I think I speak for a lot of NPOV-enthusiasts when I insist that the main image for this article not be about any current US (or otherwise) conflicts, and uses a historical image instead. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 19:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Bush-era Propoganda

(I've added this new section as I think this differs from the discussion above) I've readded the allegation of Bush-era propoganda but asked for a citation. Unless I missed something, this is a much more specific allegation than the general ones discussed above. I know I've personally seen several television reports on "news" reports which were produced by government officials but not labeled as such - and that's quite a feat for someone without a television. I don't know if this is limited to the current administration or it was only during this administration that the practice was discovered and publicized. It may not even be linked to the admninistration and its political appointees and may simply be "business as usual" for various government departments. It may turn out that the issue needs to remain in this article but the link to the Bush administration removed. I don't know the answers to these questions so that's why I asked for a citation. --ElKevbo 14:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Laden vs USA

I'd like to remove the newly added Laden vs USA image. It doesn't strike me as propaganda. It appears to be just a cheap toy chasing in on a popular sentiment, not an attempt to influence sentiment. Objections or thoughts? --ElKevbo 00:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

hum?

U.S.PSYOP leaflet disseminated in Iraq. Text: "This is your future al-Zarqawi" and shows al-Qaeda terrorist al-Zarqawi caught in a rat trap.

so dropping pictures out of an airplane of a vaugely middle eastern man in rat trap with a poorly worded translation to explain who the caricature was supposed to depict, must have really brought out that pro-US sentiment, eh? Join us or we'll put you in a cage and take humiliating pictures of you and post them on the internet, oh, wait--64.12.117.9 01:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda icons

Looking at the Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf page I found that it links to several other personalities widely known as propaganda broadcasters/personalities during various wars. Looking at these personalities, most of them have similar links. However I also noticed all of them are personalities not affiliated with the US/UK side. I appreciate that as the US/UK were the victors (well except for in Vietnam, but we all know the US likes to pretend they won there anyway), and as an English wikipedia, we tend to hear more about those on the other side but for balance we need some links (and some articles if they don't exist) on propaganda announcers on the US/UK side! I know very little about this so can't help much but hopefully someone who is more of an expert can help... Nil Einne 13:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I also noticed that the Category:Propagandists is also similarly one sided. And Hasbara is still not listed under Category:Propaganda and instead only Hasbara (disputed whether it is propaganda) is listed. At least Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty is listed under Category:Propagan Organisations for example. I think someone with an open mind and time on their side needs to make an effort to correct this clear bias whereby propaganda by the Allies (WW2), US and Western Europe (and Israel) is frequently not properly listed whereas propaganda by the Axis (WW2), communists, Arabs etc is listed. From a quick read through, this article seems fairly well written with an adequate coverage and recognising propaganda from both sides so there are clearly some people in wikipedia able and willing to adopt NPOV when it comes to coverage of propaganda. But for whatever reason, this is not reflected in our categorisation and coverage of propanda in other articles on wikipedia. Nil Einne 13:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge Propaganda in the United States

I am proposing merging the POV fork Propaganda in the United States back into this article if it is not deleted. It doesn't have enough unique content for its own article and loses the context and definitions that this article provides. --Ajdz 15:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Propaganda in the United States gives plenty of reasons. `'mikka (t) 16:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

They say why it should exist, not where. --Ajdz 16:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

OK. I thought it must be clear. Wikipedia's mode of operation is to split big articles into subtopics, not to merge big ones into even bigger. Now, the "P" article is big, the scope of the subtopic cannot be defined better. Q.E.D. `'mikka (t) 17:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Much of the argument on the AfD page is whether or not the information should exist. I don't think geography works for subtopics in this particular article because the article is largely chronological. If Propaganda in the United States exists, mention of U.S. propaganda should be deleted from Propaganda, which would severely damage important sections like "Cold War propaganda." Major sections like history or techniques would be much more suited to spinoff because they are much much more independent of each other. --Ajdz 17:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I see no problem in turning "Cod War propaganga" into a summary. This is done all over wikipedia all the time. We have separate Propaganda in the People's Republic of China, Propaganda in the Republic of China, Category:Nazi propaganda, Propaganda in the Soviet Union. So, why not in the USA? there is a whole Category:United States government propaganda organisations, so I say the current article merely scratches the tip of the iceberg of Ameriprop. `'mikka (t) 18:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point about those different articles about propaganda in whatever country it is. It did seem a bit awkward to me to have a separate "Propaganda in the US" entry, but if that is the customary Wikipedia practice for propaganda in other countries, then okay. Perhaps the country-specific propaganda articles could be linked to from the main one, for readers who might not find them intuitively. DanielM 22:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Then shouldn't all the U.S.-specific content be removed from the main article so they aren't redundant? Because the U.S. is so involved in world affairs, most of the examples belong alongside others, like in the Cold War and Iraq sections. I don't believe that China is as active internationally, so their article would be largely domestic. The same can't be said about the U.S. --Ajdz 23:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

No, IMO the main article should cover the best examples of and issues relating to propaganda from any country. The country-specific article allows in-depth propaganda examination for that country. DanielM 00:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Then the history section should be renamed "best examples" as it would be incomplete by design. --Ajdz 03:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article, not a complete history of propaganda, which would be many hundreds of pages long or more. So I don't think it's a question of the history section being "incomplete by design." The titles of sections should be determined by editors based on the text therein and the overall organization of the article. I think the redundancy issue is worth considering periodically for editors as they develop both articles. You don't want a lot of redundancy, but a moderate amount of incidental redundancy that occurs naturally as the articles receive independent development is not a problem, IMO. DanielM 05:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. While this article certainly can have a section about this phenomena, all national propagandas are notable and deserve their own articles.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - this article should be written in summary style with subarticles for specific nationalities. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 21:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - If we merge the US article, then by principle we'd have to merge the the Propaganda in the PRC article as well, making this an overly cumbersome article. Joshlmay 23:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

misquote

"even if only to differentiate ourselves from what Noam Chomsky calls the “bewildered herd.”" Chomsky did not say this, Walter Lippman said this. Chomsky quoted this in one of his works. Here is Lippman's full quote: "live free of the trampling and the roar of a bewildered herd." Chomsky used the quote in his book "Hegemony or Survival: America's quest for global dominance" on page 6.

Sources where Chomsky quoted or paraphrased him(instead of Chomsky saying it): http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/talks/9103-media-control.html http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19900907.htm http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/Quotes_MediaControl.html And of course, the actual book.

I went ahead and changed it.

USSR Photos

I've found an interesting source of many Russian posters dating from 1917 to 1991. If anyone thinks the link should be added to the main article here it is:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpx/sets/72057594117941491/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Saintlink (talk • contribs) 15:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

What is their copyright status? --ElKevbo 20:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Operation names

The choice of operation names like "peace for galilee", "just cause", "iraqi freedom", and "enduring freedom" is a use of propaganda not yet described. Añoranza 01:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Lord Haw-Haw

Might a reference to Lord Haw-Haw / William Joyce be relevant in the Nazi section? Joyce's controversial execution as a traitor (to a country he was not a citizen of) is an interesting footnote to WW2 and the role of propaganda therein. Dugo 02:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC) Definately Dugo, go for it!Hypnosadist 22:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This article used to be better.

Go back and take a look at [1] from 2005. That's better than what we have now. --John Nagle 23:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, according to the current definition of propaganda, a simple question could be considered propaganda as it also aims to influence the listeners behaviour. The earlier definition was better, but may still need work on it.

Include propaganda on animal rights

Large stock of propaganda is on Wikipedia, in chapter about animal rights. Classical emotional photos, one-sided arguments... everything. Might be worth including - with bold Wikipedia referring to it's own shortcomings. Indeed, somebody could make a nice sociological study from that chapter alone.

Screenshot of top of Wikipedia article "animal testing" would be worth including. Big photo of sad-looking monkey and below, in a small type, explanation that most of test animals are rodents.

Way to much Israeli Proganda

Israeli reports can not be trusted as has been demonstrated by their claims and high censorship levels.

Do you not know that Israel claims Hezbollah did it and that the UN Secretary-General is racist? By the way the Israeli foreign ministry has asked for volunteers to serf the net and launch a cmpaign to protect Israel. Here is the link.

http://uruknet.info/?p=m25177&hd=0&size=1&l=e

read this on by Wikipedia has an unusually large amount of vandalizing editors deleting facts that are incriminating for Israel...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html

this site is filled with evivence http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

Israeli propganda should be mentioned in this article.

69.196.164.190

Hasbara should it be in the see also?

Someone keeps adding Hasbara back as a "see also" link. Now, I agree 100% that Hasbara is an example of propaganda. You may find a few people who disagree and would say it is POV to call Hasbara propaganda, but actually I don't think this is the reason it should not be a link here. I think it should not be a link here precisely because it is an example of propaganda. All the other See Also links are to topics about propaganda, mostly types of propaganda - not to examples of propaganda. The examples of propaganda that exist are too many to list and are not the point of the article. Notice that none of the other See Also's linked relates to a specific political issue. This is by design. The point of the article is not to call any specific thing propaganda, even if it clearly is. The point of the article is to explain the nature of propaganda in the abstract.

I am writing this so that we can establish some consensus about the issue to form the basis for the final state of that link. Rlitwin 13:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Having read you answer i see your point, i think Hasbara should be mentioned in the section on the megaphone software. Also i think a notation of Al-Manar's position as an accused propaganda outfit should be added to the section for both completeness and NPOV reasons, what do you think.Hypnosadist 18:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really know. I guess I'd have to see it. Rlitwin 19:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Too much emphasis on 19th-21st centuries?

I'm way too far out of my field to significantly contribute to this article but it does seem to me that there is an over-emphasis on the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. I'm sure that with modern technology propaganda has become much more widespread but it also seems to me that we are lacking discussion and examples of older propaganda. But I could be wrong and I'd welcome anyone who could set me straight if I am wrong. --ElKevbo 22:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

A little out of my field, too, but I agree. I would like to see more examples of historical propaganda if they still exist. 134.129.74.42 17:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Menk

2004-2005 discussion archived

I archived discussion from 2004 and 2005. Please feel free to bring anything out of the archive if I made a mistake or we need to revisit an old issue. --ElKevbo 22:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Time for a New Opening Sentence?

What if the opening sentence was changed to something more grabbing like:

Propaganda is a specially formed message, designed by a propagandist with the sole purpose of soliciting an intended response.

Propaganda is meant to present a blunt point in few words and the opening sentence is too weak. Also, if you need to provide some contrast with regular, honest communications, use a second sentence like "Unlike more honest forms of communication, propaganda is written to be palatable to the common man and presents events and information in a meticulously designed depiction of a chosen subset of facts available." Further, a third sentence might be "The combination of a believable arrangement of a specific group of facts and making the propaganda easily accessible and understandable by the intended audience yields the most effective use of Propaganda." LighthouseJ 18:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda in song

I'd like to see a section on propaganda in song. Some songs are about propaganda. Some songs ARE propaganda. Let me find a few examples. Then maybe someone can work them into the article. --SafeLibraries 20:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

HAVE YOU GOT PROBLEMS?

written by Paul McCartney / Michael McGear

Album title: McGear

YOU WAKE UP, YOU SIP HOT TEA,

MINDLESS MUSIC, RADIO FREE.

YOU SEE BLUE SKIES AND THINK OF SEA,

HOW ARE YOU DOING?

THEN LATER ON, SWITCH ON TV,

THEY GIVE ME THE NEWS,

THEY GIVE HALF TRUTHS TO ME.

THEY GIVE US WHYS, THEY FEED US LIES,

HOW ARE WE DOING? (yeah, yeah, yeah)

TO EDUCATE, THEY FABRICATE,

AND WE SIT BACK TILL IT'S TOO LATE.

HAVE YOU GOT PROBLEMS?

WHAT ARE YOUR PROBLEMS?

BRING ALL YOUR PROBLEMS STRAIGHT TO ME.

TRUST IN ME NOW,

'CAUSE I'M YOUR LEADER,

DON'T HESITATE NOW, I'LL PUT YOU STRAIGHT.

THINK OF ALL THE PROMISES MADE TO YOU,

THINK OF THE LIES THAT WE'RE GOING THRU'.

I AM THE LIGHT IN YOUR DARKEST HOUR,

THRU' ANY CRISIS, I WILL BE YOUR POWER.

DON'T BELIEVE, DON'T BELIEVE, DON'T BELIEVE

ALL YOU'RE TOLD, ALL YOU READ, ALL YOU'RE TAUGHT,

ALL YOU SEE, DON'T BELIEVE, DON'T BELIEVE,

ALL YOU'RE TOLD, ALL YOU READ, ALL YOU'RE TAUGHT,

ALL YOU SEE, DON'T BELIEVE.

DO WHAT YOU WANT, DO WHAT YOU DO,

WHAT DO YOU WANT, DO WHAT YOU LIKE.

DO WHAT YOU WANT, DO WHAT YOU DO,

WHAT DO YOU WANT, DO WHAT YOU LIKE.

That song is ABOUT propaganda. --SafeLibraries 20:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's another one ABOUT propaganda:

ONE OF THE FEW

Written by Pink Floyd

Album title: The Final Cut

When you're one of the few to land on your feet

What do you do to make ends meet?

Teach

Make them mad, make them sad, make them add two and two

Make them me, make them you, make them do what you want them to

Make them laugh, make them cry, make them lie down and die

--SafeLibraries 20:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Another:

ANOTHER BRICK IN THE WALL, PART II

Written by Pink Floyd

Album title: The Wall

We don't need no education.

We don't need no thought control.

No dark sarcasm in the classroom.

Teacher, leave those kids alone.

Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!

All in all its just another brick in the wall.

All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

We don't need no education.

We don't need no thought control.

No dark sarcasm in the classroom.

Teachers, leave those kids alone.

Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!

All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

--SafeLibraries 20:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Cite some quality sources and you've got the makings for a good addition to the article. You might also want to look at some of the more overt forms of music propaganda such as (a) that used by various countries in wartime broadcast in their opponents' language (some of whom earned some very colorful nicknames from combatants) (b) commercial radio jingles and (c) political jingles (not very popular in the US anymore but apparently popular many decades ago in the US - I do remember a relatively recent radio news spot (NPR?) about some songs used in current non-US elections). --ElKevbo 23:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Perfect. A perfect answer - providing more information. Now I'm not the genius in this area. That's why I'm here and I'm suggesting others throw in their ideas as well. Yours are excellent. --SafeLibraries 00:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Check the McCartney song "Give Ireland back to the Irish" cirac 1970s during Ireland conflict has some strange statements in there including the title (majority of Irish Republicans consider the part of Ireland occupied as property of the Irish and not the property of Britiain to give back);

Tell Me How Would You Like It

If On Your Way To Work

You Were Stopped By Irish Soliders

Would You Lie Down Do Nothing

Would you give in or go berserk

Give Ireland Back To The Irish

Don't Make Them Have To Take It Away

Give Ireland Back To The Irish

Make Ireland Irish Today

There are also a lot of Republican/Fenian and Loyalist songs containing propaganda. See Irish rebel music & Billy Boys RandomGalen 18:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to butt in here too much, because I think the root of this idea is certainly positive and worth exploring, but this seems like the wrong tac. Introducing musical propaganda might be okay, as a sub-heading, but I'm not sure it is truly germaine. Lyrics like those you've cited mainly seem distracting to the content of this entry. I'm not suggesting more WWII posters/images, or quotes from Lord Hee Haw, or anything, but coming to this page I'm not sure a reader is looking for McCartney lyrics. I mean, what would you include? Who's to say that anyone with a political agenda isn't dispensing propaganda. Forgive me for quoting Cypress Hill among all you intellectuals, but on their Black Sunday album a song states: "I got ta get my props/ Cops/ come and try to snatch my crops/ These pigs wanna blow my house down/ Head underground, to the next town/ They get mad when they come to raid my pad/ and I'm out in the nine-deuce Cad...."

I mention this because not only does it portray law enforcement in a particluar way, but it is (I assume generally) and unpopular view of the police. Couldn't this rightly fall into the definition of propaganda? And further, what constitutes a 'salient' example of propaganda in song? Tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree? 134.129.74.42 17:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Menk

Lebanon Conflict section

Seems like a good idea, very topical. The P2P app thing is very interesting. However, the second paragraph seems out of place... not only is no evidence presented that the station engages in propaganda, but no specific allegation are made in the paragraph. If it is an attempt to make such a claim, as worded it is engaging in a classic unstated assumption. If it is not, then it's just plain off-topic. Either way, it needs to be reworked or removed.

Ok i added both sections and yes they need more sourcing, Al-Manar is Hezbollah's in house TV station and has been banned for the anti-semitic nature of its broadcasts in many countries. I'm sure i can find some thing that says its propaganda, they say there job is to put hezbollahs point of view onto the airwaves.Hypnosadist 11:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is this an example of propaganda?:

In July of 2006 in responce to the outcry in much of the US and EU media of event in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict the World Union of Jewish Students started giving out a piece of freeware called the Megaphone desktop tool. This was a P2P software program that is designed to notify the user of internet polls and chats on the issue on notable news and opinion websites. This is an example of an opinion leader technique and is unusual in the fact that this is a NGO not a government and a unique implimentation of P2P[2].

Which reliable, expert sources have described this as "propaganda"? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Times of London refers to this as a campain to counter a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. Thats how its notable, it is not claimed this IS propaganda.Hypnosadist 16:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is about propaganda, not counter-propaganda. The insertion doesn't actually discuss the Arab propaganda, merely the counter-propaganda efforts. As such, it's giving an erroneous POV. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've retained the relevant information, removed the stuff that has nothing to do with propaganda, and made explicit your reasoning for including it. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Your edit is cool with me.Hypnosadist 20:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me as well

Is anyone working on writing an article to contain some examples from the Lebanon conflict? There appears to be so much of it. RandomGalen 18:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was trying to, but Deuterium just reverted me, no doubt in error. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no evidence that the photo incident was "propaganda", and you are trying to make POV statements regarding a supposed "tide of Arab propaganda", for which there is no evidence either. It's obvious and disgusting POV. Deuterium 02:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The linked article itself refers to a "tide of Arab propaganda". That's the only reason it was there in the first place. If there's no evidence for it, then this whole section doesn't belong. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Did you read the article? What it says is this:

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda.

So the "tide of pro-Arab propaganda" is not what The Times believes but what the Israeli Government believes, a fact which I have tried to make clear in the article but which you continually revert.

The fact that you made bad faith edits to a section that you apparently want to delete is a violation of WP:POINT. Deuterium

The section was included on the basis that it was an example of a response to Arab propaganda; see the comments above. If one cannot even claim state unequivocally that there was indeed such Arab propaganda, then it certainly has no place in this article at all. While I was trying to work with other editors in improving this article, and had indeed worked out an accomodation with them, your edits here seem to consist solely of edit-warring violations of WP:NPOV. Furthermore, your claim that my edits were in "bad faith" is itself a violation of the good faith policy. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way The Washington Times points out that "The important point here is that Mr. Hajj was doctoring his work for propaganda purposes." LA Weekly describes the photos as "one more victory in Hezbollah’s propaganda war against Israel and the U.S.". According to The Boston Herald, "it would appear that Hezbollah, or worse, Lebanese rescue workers, decided the best use of a dead child was to be dragged around for propaganda purposes." As has been pointed out by the Jewish Virtual Library in regards to this, "This incident should make editors and viewers alike suspicious of images being disseminated by freelance Arab photographers and videographers who are engaging in propaganda rather than photo-journalism." Now, what were you saying about there being "no evidence that the photo incident was "propaganda"? Oh, and there were quite a few "photo incidents". Jayjg ^(talk) 03:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well i think the photo incidents and the Al-Manar section i wrote should be put in the article.Hypnosadist 09:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

PS i added a line to say who was talking about "tide of pro-Arab propaganda".Hypnosadist 09:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

PPS Jayjg go to the CAIR talk page and have a look at the photos they have faked for propaganda reasons.Hypnosadist 09:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstand the concept, but I don't see how that Megaphone software is relevant in this article. Perhaps it belongs to Activism, together with myriad of other activism efforts. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 09:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The concept is quite simple, poeple with Megaphone change the outcome of Votes (in favour of Isreal) on Popular TV/Media outlets. This is an opinion leader technique, where undecided people will most often go for the side that is most popular (ie winning the TV votes). Thus the idea is to nudge public opinion in favour of Isreal through this software. Also given that a notable computer programmer(check out talk on megaphone software) could not find where they are hosted in the world puts them out of the activist league.Hypnosadist 10:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I see; so in fact, you included the Megaphone material not (as you claimed) because it was a response to propaganda, but rather because you have used original research to decide that it is a significant example of propaganda - so significant that it needs to be mentioned in this brief overview of historical propaganda. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't claim it was a response to propaganda, thats what the Authors of the program say, and you believed them! And i used that belief to my advantage. And it really is a responce to a long term propaganda campain by NGO's and things like Al-Manar, but the section on Al-manar that i deliberately paired with it (for pov and completeness reasons) got taken out. But it still is propaganda and notable, you where more than happy before, not one word has and now you are angry because you find that you have been manipulated, thats propaganda! You bought the propaganda used to manipulate loyal jews to help their people by using this program, as oposed to the opinion leader technique used to manipulate the people reading the votes. I am a bit sorry about leading you up the garden path.Hypnosadist 16:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, ok; in any event, your novel narrative that this is a significant example of propaganda will have to be sourced. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Reverting to hyperlinks of wikipedia policies LOL, you supported the exact wording before, its just as notable now.Hypnosadist 16:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It was never notable; I tried to work out an accomodation with you, since you were aggressively reverting, and since you based your claim on deliberately false premises, which you've now admitted. Please provide proper sourcing for your novel narrative that this is a significant example of propaganda. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Nope you just bought their lines and i let you because i could not be bothered to argue. The Times link is still valid for notability and relivence.It is still both a responce to propaganda and propaganda itself. If we use this info and add the fake photo info and a reference to Al-Manar, it being a self admitted propaganda TV station we could have a nice NPOV section on propaganda in this war.PS What are your qualifications in the area of propaganda?PPS Unsuprisingly a computer program created in July 2006 is not in any academic text book in August 2006 so the Times (and the links you provided) is the best quality available for the topic and more than meets the level required by WP:V.Hypnosadist 18:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The Times article is a single source, and it only talks about Arab propaganda. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the most important quote is "Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions.". This is still just as notable as before and youve just changed your mind on POV grounds. With the addition of the photo stuff as evidence of the "tide of pro-Arab propaganda" this will look much more balanced.Hypnosadist 19:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, a public relations director for an Israeli ministry said that? So what? Where is the source that says this is "propaganda", or notable? As for me, I haven't changed my mind about its notability - it was always non-notable, and including it here was, in fact, part of a propaganda effort. You, however, have changed your story; before you said "it is not claimed this IS propaganda", now you're insisting it is propaganda after all. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

TOC too far down?

Maybe it is just me, but 3 long paragraphs seems like too large of an intro before the TOC. Was thinking moving it after the 1st one, as #2 and #3 could go together under a section of "definition" or something. Comments welcome. — MrDolomite | Talk 02:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Chomsky

Considering that Chomsky is a Marxist, his criticisms of anti-Communist propaganda are hardly non-biased. I vote for deleting the anti-Communist propaganda section. 100 million dead from the practice of a certain ideology, that's propaganda and lies.

Why not add a section regarding Communist propaganda against the West for the sake of fairness and balance. (sarcasm)--Pravknight 05:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What about propaganda in the advertisement and related industry, along with politics and religion?

An analysis of the advertising industry and activity comparing it with the characteristics of propaganda shows that, almost all advertising has some of the characteristics of propaganda. Even though, the advertising theorists deny that what they do is basically propaganda, commercial propaganda, bringing up a more and more extensive set of designations and definitions in order to make their point (as propagandists they know their job, of course).

This quite complete article doesn’t directly support the advertising theorists, on the contrary (“advertising and public relations can be thought of as propaganda that promotes a commercial product or shapes the perception of an organization, person or brand”), but given the totally different stress it puts onto commercial propaganda to one side and political and religious propaganda to the other, I think it reflects all the weight and power commercial propaganda has in western societies, not forgetting that this is very likely the form of propaganda which directly acts upon more people during more time. By the very nature of propaganda, by its very concept, it could only use all its power to deny itself (even political propaganda has started to deny itself and managed to turn into “political marketing” and other designations).

Being very long, the article has the main ideas scattered along the text, making it difficult for the reader to make a quick broad picture of the issue and immediately get the best possible balance of the areas concerned by propaganda. Particularly the introduction is very poor at this regard, in my opinion.

What I’d like to do would be primarily to copy some of the ideas from the text (sentences, paragraphs), the ones which would better give a frame of what propaganda is, and put them at the top for that purpose. I’d also like to delete the examples of propaganda posters because there isn’t any to exemplify commercial propaganda and I don’t have any to add it myself. Moreover, the first one to be seen is the one representing a Nazi stabbing a Bible. The very use of anything related to Nazism or any other generally criticized ideology or idea as the first image to be presented doesn’t account much for the NPOV. If a picture is worth a thousand words, as the dictum goes, this part of using the posters is totally unbalanced and shapes clearly the idea that propaganda as nothing to do with the advertising industry (and others related), which the article itself denies, but only by some short lines somewhere in the middle of the text.

I’d also like to stress (by rephrasing or putting in bold) what I’ve found in the text related to commercial propaganda and to add some details in order to get a more balanced article concerning the areas it touches.

Finally, I’d like to introduce minor changes like removing or balancing qualifiers for the sake of NPOV. For instance, I’d like to added “/counter-terrorism” to make “terrorism/counter-terrorism” and I’d like to remove “democratic” from “democratic countries of the West”. These are typical western terminology and omitting the qualifier “democratic” is not stating western countries aren’t democratic as it is not stating they are. Being the western countries democratic or not is absolutely irrelevant for un article on propaganda. Propaganda doesn't depend on the countries being or not being democratic. DavidMarciano 22:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I will support this. Rlitwin 22:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay. That was long. I'm am not sure I understood it. So take what I say here with a grain of salt. Commercials are pure propaganda, everyone knows this, so I think a short sentence or link is all that is needed. Besides, when you see a commercial for anything, say, Hair Club for Men, you know immediately the ad was created with Hair Club for Men approval so naturally they will say this or that.

Non-commercial propaganda is quite different. And I think this propaganda page is about non-commercial propaganda. Non-commercial propaganda is effective precisely because, unlike commercial propaganda, a person does not automatically take what he hears with a grain of salt and because non-commercial propaganda comes from multiple sometomes major sources, unlike commercial which is often from a single source. Remember, everyone, I am not a genius in this area. I'm just trying to be a part of the Wiki community here.

You also said you would take down a lot of the photos. True, they are largely from the Western world, but your saying the Nazi one is POV is POV in and of itself. Whose to say what should be the first, most representative graphic? Should it be from the Nazis who convinced entire nations of people to kill millions of others instead of from those opposing the Nazis? Perhaps. Should it be the Protocols of the Elders of Zion because that lives on to this very day, even being made into television mini series? Who knows? Oh I could go on and on here with examples.

I find it odd that one person could say the whole thing stinks, throw it out, and rewrite it his way. What about this talk page to work on the proposed changes here -- I'll bet that'll short circuit edit wars. In my opinion, the propaganda photos used are as good as any. There are likely millions to choose from. I surprised anyone could look at this small subset of millions that made it into this article so far and call that a POV. Any of the other millions could be selected. So to that extent, I agree with you. But your saying commercial propaganda is not emphasized enough worries me. How about just an ad for Joe Camel cigarettes or John Wayne smoking ads. Remember, I'm just blabbing here from no specific knowledge in this area so feel free to ignore me and definitely take no offense at what I am writing.

So, like Rlitwin, I will support it too, only I would want you to go out of your way to avoid POV, to include a whole world view, to consider what I have said, and to expect input from others.

Thanks to both for having replied and for the support.

I’m a newcomer to Wikipedia and I am not a genius in this area, either. I'm also just trying to be part of the Wiki community. And, just like most wikis, I‘d like to help making Wikipedia as accurate and impartial as possible. I think propaganda is exactly what is more against impartiality, that’s why I’ve started here.

I agree with some points, but there are others with which I don’t agree.

First, “everyone knows Commercials are pure propaganda”… except for the people in the business, it seems. The industry came up with knew designations and definitions, always refusing the word propaganda. That’s in itself a technique of propaganda. If there are different aspects (commercial and non-commercial) of the same thing, I think one should start from what is common to all of them and afterwards specify the differences.

I don’t think this page should be about any particular type of propaganda. On the contrary, I think it should be comprehensive, since the fenomenon, the concept, is the same.

I don’t think the source or the “grain of salt” one may or may not have are relevant for defining propaganda. If commercial propaganda wasn’t as effective as any other type of propaganda companies wouldn’t spend huge amounts of money on it, that’s for sure. Think that everybody as also a grain of salt when it comes to politics. So they've substituted “political marketing” for “political propaganda”. By the way, “marketing” is commercial, right? They're getting closer...

All propaganda carries Tendencious POV, so the Nazi poster could only be POV. But that’s not the point. The point is, with that poster (and subsequently with all the others) people are led to the opinion that the article is about non commercial propaganda. Thus, if commercial propaganda is not subject of the article, it’s not propaganda… as the industry claims, despite “everybody knowing it is”. The POV is here. For the article to achieve NPOV a poster of commercial propaganda would have to fulfill the same requirements of the other posters – to be completely outdated. An advertisement for a car of the same 40’s, for instance, would be adequate. An as good alternative would be simply not to use posters at all, since in the article there aren’t examples of any of the other vehicles propaganda uses either.

I share the views on editing, that’s why I haven’t done any editing so far. And, my point is primarily to try to bring to the discussion some views that I feel are missing and not to try to make a point for the sake of making my point. In Wikipedia it would be nonsense. DavidMarciano 16:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, DavidMarciano. I feel better about your suggestions now. Since you seem to be interested in presented the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, consider looking at a particular propaganda and it effects nationwide from a book written by the self-acknowledged propagandists themselves on how to do the propagandization, "After the Ball - How America Will Conquer its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90s" (Penguin Books) and here's a head start for you that includes key sections of the book. I am not taking a position on the underlying theme that is the subject of this particular propaganda -- I am only interested in how the propaganda is done and how effective it can be (because I want to see if the ALA's propaganda techniques work in a similar fashion with similar effect -- indeed if any of the ALA types come here to attack me, well that could be the "jamming" technique discussed in the book I am recommending for your review (right, you-know-who?) -- who knows, you yourself may find you are being "jammed" so be sure to dot your i's and cross your t's and trust yourself). Therefore I look forward to your work here if you stay with this. Thanks. --SafeLibraries 21:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the Hints SafeLibrarians.

In fact, I think that a work like Wikipedia makes all sense if the truth is among its main values and if it manages to get as close to the truth as it may be humanly possible in the information it shares. Otherwise it’ll make sense for lots of people (the ones who manage to get to their own set of objectives through the project), but it won’t make all sense in a society that wants to be free and democratic. The founders, or whoever wrote the introductory pages of Wikipedia, seem to believe that impartiality and NPOV will prevail at the end. Not everybody is so fast at believing it, but the idea that if a lot of people get interested and involved in the project the combination of opinions will eventually result in impartiality and NPOV makes sense and is appealing. So, when I recently surfed a bit on Wikipedia and discovered how it works, I’ve decided to try to contribute and see what’d happen. Thus, my rising of a suggestion. I’ve chosen an area I’m interested in for no special reason except for the sake of the truth.

We’ll see what happens if there will be any jamming and, in case it does, the way how Wikipedia will deal with it, I’m aware that it isn’t something easy to deal with. Whichever the case will be, there will be fighting, that’s for sure.

I don’t know if you have or can find some outdated advertisement and religious posters. If not but if you could give me a hint on where to find some I’d appreciate. My idea now is to make a group of three posters, one religious, one political and one commercial (by order to attend to chronology), and shrink and locate them in a way that the reader would find them simultaneously. This, in order to change as little as possible other people’s contributions.DavidMarciano 17:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm not aware of such right now. But consider http://www.dangerousprofessors.net/ generally for propaganda in American Universities. --SafeLibraries 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. Also for the other one on the propaganda methods, which shows perfectly the way things are done. I haven’t found the posters I was looking for I guess because neither religious nor commercial propaganda use much the poster as a means of spreading. And I don’t have much time either. So in a few days I’ll do my text editing has I’ve suggested. Let’s see if mean while anyone else steps forward supporting or disagreeing. About the posters I haven’t decided yet what to do. Maybe I’ll still find something. Let’s see.DavidMarciano 20:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the article, mainly the lead section, according to my initial suggestion. The image, I have moved it to the Nazi Germany section where I think it belongs (see also next discussion point, please). I think I have missed the link on it... sorry, still a beginer. Of course, I'm ready to discuss every edit. DavidMarciano 22:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I think we have too many links at the moment, definetly the Spam template is accurate. I would suggest deleting the tehcnical definition from SourceWatch - we should have a maxmium of 1 per site + references (the user can always surf the SourceWatch site if they want - simply say something like

"

1. SourcesWatch - contains definitions of propoganda and information the techniques used.

"

Instead of

In External Links

1. Propaganda techniques list from SourceWatch
2. SourceWatch article on propaganda techniques

Also I think we should aim to cut down generally. Say have a few good links to sites with examples of propoganda (the ones we collectively feel are the best resources) and a few to sites like SpinWatch and SourceWatch which monitor propoganda.

Perhaps leave one Video? I haven't viewed them so I can't really comment mutch (if their both worth it, it might be good to keep them as examples of 21st century propoganda.

Philipwhiuk 17:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I’m also of the opinion that there are too many links and I don’t think the movies were a good addition. My grounds are the same of the previous discussion point (commercial propaganda) – unbalance.

I haven’t seen the movies either but, basically, they must present, directly or indirectly, a “bad guy” of the western common social conscience, like many of the posters along the article do. A lot of them refer, either directly or indirectly, to Nazism, to communism and to recent wars or alike, all things which are still very much in the western common social conscience (and should be for a long time, of course, since we talking about the way the human kind is looked at). But from the images in the article what we globally get, what gets into our brains by the powerful process of the image, is mainly a picture of the “bad guys” of recent history, not a picture of propaganda (for instance, there is just one image representing religion and it is absolutely innocuous in the context of the global picture the reader faces).

This article is not about the “bad guys”, but about propaganda. Each “bad guy” has its own article on Wikipedia, so I think what relates to them shouldn’t be too emphasized here. Moreover, it’s not only the “bad guys” of our common social conscience who use propaganda. The emphasis here should go to propaganda itself, its different areas, techniques and so on.

So, I think the best would be to remove both movies. I could accept them, nevertheless, if there were also other movies really counterbalancing these.

DavidMarciano 20:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Structure improvement

I think it’d make the article a bit more coherent if the techniques were next to the types of propaganda. My suggestion is to move the history section to the end. Some aggregation of the images by side of origin would also add some more coherence, I guess. DavidMarciano 18:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)