Talk:Treachery of the Blue Books

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Daicaregos (talk | contribs) at 09:27, 25 January 2018 (→‎"Blue Book" is not the same as "Treachery of the Blue Books ": Done). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Link to Blue Books at National Library of Wales

The link doesn't work, therefore please leave it off this page. The previous link gives "Error The National Library of Wales has recently launched its new website. The link you have followed may no longer be valid. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause" --Darren Wyn Rees (talk) 22:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Treachery of the Blue Books. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:16, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Blue Book" is not the same as "Treachery of the Blue Books "

@Daicaregos: The "Treachery of the Blue Books" was a characterisation of the Blue Books. It was not a name for them, any more than the "stupidity of Donald Trump" is a name for Donald Trump or the "genius of Beethoven" is a name for Beethoven. I'm not sure what you think is "inaccurate" about that. jnestorius(talk) 23:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for bringing this to the Talk page. Three points: 1. the edit changed the Lead to imply it is only 'Welsh speakers and language advocates' who call the reports the 'Treason of the Blue Books'. I don't believe this to be so and if you have any evidence of that it should be cited. 2. John Davies notes in The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales that the name 'took hold of the public imagination to such an extent that ever since the report has been known by that name.' 3. The edit also changes the opening sentence to say it was 'a negative description by Welsh speakers and language advocates...'. While we may, or may not, share that opinion it is contrary to WP:NPOV to provide editor opinion in articles. It is far better to allow the reader to form their own opinion: res ipsa loquitur (English: the thing speaks for itself). Daicaregos (talk) 10:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than "..the name given in Wales...", how about "...the description given in Wales...."  ? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:55, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from the Encylopaedia of Wales, numerous reliable sources say that is how the report is known e.g.:here, here, here and here, or that it is called the Treason of the Blue Books (e.g. St Fagans) alone. Daicaregos (talk) 11:28, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources say "The report was known as..." and some say "The furore was known as..." No source says, e.g., "The Treason of the Blue Books was published in 1847". To my mind, "Blue Books" is the document, "Treason of the Blue Books" is the historical event; plenty of sources support that:
Prys Morgan, 'From long knives to Blue Books', in Welsh society and nationhood: historical essays presented to Glanmor Williams p.199:
The Treason of the Blue Books is an expression which every Welsh schoolboy knows. He might also know that the reports of three commissioners sent by the government to look into the state of education and the moral condition of the common people of Wales in 1846 were published the following year in the form of Blue Books, and that their publication caused a great furore. David Owen ('Brutus') observed in the Anglican journal, Yr Haul, in 1847 that Wales had never seen such a rumpus before, and it was then only beginning. The 'Blue Books' have always remained controversial.
How about something like:
The Treachery of the Blue Books or Treason of the Blue Books (Welsh: Brad y Llyfrau Gleision) was the publication in 1847 of the three-volume Report of the Commissioners of Enquiry into the State of Education in Wales, which caused uproar in Wales for disparaging the Welsh working class, Welsh speakers, and nonconformists.
jnestorius(talk) 13:04, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the report wasn't known as the Treason of... on publication but many, including some of those noted above, say 'it became known as the Treason of... ', which is now the report's common name. In my initial respose above (2) I quoted The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales saying that the name 'took hold of the public imagination to such an extent that ever since the report has been known by that name.' (my emphasis). Nevertheless, I would support your suggested Intro up to the Welsh, to give:
The Treachery of the Blue Books or Treason of the Blue Books (Welsh: Brad y Llyfrau Gleision) was the publication in 1847 of the three-volume Report of the Commissioners of Enquiry into the State of Education in Wales, which caused uproar in Wales for disparaging the Welsh; being particularly scathing in its view of the Welsh language, nonconformity and the immorality of the Welsh people in general.BBC
Daicaregos (talk) 15:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That looks fine to me. I am always happy to avoid quibbling over minor points. jnestorius(talk) 22:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I've made the change. Daicaregos (talk) 09:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Treachery_of_the_Blue_Books&oldid=822257781"