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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MonsterHunter32 (talk | contribs) at 16:10, 6 May 2018 (→‎New text). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Cranial study supports Indo-Aryan migrations

See Paleoeuropeoid (steppe herder) infiltration into South Central Asia during the Bronze Age (Dubova et al. 2016). Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:23, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Aryan-Dasa conflict

I don't see how this is relevant to the article. It's out of place, since it has nothing to do with the development of the theoretical insights on Indo-Aryan migration); at best, it belongs at the section on literary research. Yet, as this section mentions, "Just as the Avesta does not mention an external homeland of the Zoroastrians, the Rigveda does not explicitly refer to an external homeland[46] or to a migration." So, what relevance does this WP:UNDUE info then have for insight into Indo-Aryan migrations? At best, this one part of a sentence could be used, that also doesn't speak about migrations:

Bridget Allchin and Raymond Allchin state that from the Vedas, it is evident that the Indo-Aryans were not the only inhabitants of the region they called Sapta-Sindhava or land of seven Indus rivers.[1]


References

  1. ^ Bridget Allchin, Raymond Allchin. The Rise of Civilization in India and Pakistan. Cambridge University Press. pp. 307–208.

Apart from that, this text is copied from Religious violence in India#Vedic period, without attribution. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:17, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, you added that info there yourself. Nevertheless, it's out of place here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:38, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Joshua Jonathan The one who added it to Religious violence in India#Vedic period was me. Why will I attribute my own edit? How is IndoAryans coming into conflict in a land they were living in not relevant?
The statements I added are fom reliable sources. Not just that, many are actually based on Vedic literature. I don’t see why one source should be presented as the truth and the other removed. Tony Balantyne calls them Aryan invaders.
Also from so many reliable sources, it is clear that Dasas and Dasyus were different than Aryans. I don't say they were necessarily of an ethnic stock, they are also speculated to be other Aryans, but with some differences still. The Aryans themselves warred among each other.
If someone disagrees with what they say, then you should add other scholars with a different view. Outright removing it is not good practice. It took me a lot of time to contribute this content. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 21:06, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple experienced editors are telling you on multiple pages that you are adding WP:UNDUE content. You need to pay attention to that.
It is also a problem if you copy large chunks of text from one article to another. We do not want the burden of having to maintain the same problematic content on multiple pages. If the content is really appropriate for both the pages, you need to decide which is the main article for the content, and summarise it in another, and you need to display the {{Main article}} to indicate which is which
Your sourcing is also consistently a problem. You are using the work of a colonial historian to talk about ancient Indian history, a book on Religion of the Vedas in an article on the history of migrations, and so on. Why don't consult the sources that deal with the subject directly? That would give you an idea of the weight you should give to these issues, and how to cover the subject at an appropriate level. You should also use modern sources, as required by WP:HISTRS. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:36, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You should't use numbers to remove reliably sourced content. I may not be that experienced but I know what I'm adding.
Also not all colonial-era historians should be seen as unreliable. It should depend on whether the author is known to have a bias or be inaccurate. Hermann was a German Indologist, and his claims are based accurately on Vedic texts.
But if users disagree on it, then I won't insist on it. It is to be kept in mind that colonial-era historians are used on many pages including where Kautilya3 edited like Persecution of Hindus with Will Durant. I'm only adding their views and statements, not claiming it all as undeniable fact. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 05:12, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I added Will Durant? You must be joking. If I did, you are welcome to go and remove it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:52, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I never said you did, I said he was there on an article you edited. He was added by someone else. What i meant was while you edited the article, you haven't removed it. So why here? On Persecution of Hindus, Will Durant's statement is clearly shown only as his view, not as a fact. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 05:13, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good. I have blocked Will Durant from getting added on various pages over the years. The one liner that exists on the Persecution of Hindus is the maximum amount of coverage that we can accord to such dubious, out of date sources.
If you are interested in understanding the Arya-Dasa relations, I recommend looking at
You will find that authentic history is a lot different from the polemics that people cherry pick from religious books. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:08, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All of the people I have added are reliable scholars and there is no "polemics", it is clearly all genuine. I didn't claim they were always at war. It is known Aryans and Dasas often allied with each other against their enemies. The Vedic Aryan king Sudas and his family is himself thought to be a Dasa according to the Allchins. The intermixing of Aryans with other cultures and language like of Dasa is also talked about in the sources. I have mostly added about violence because I was originally creating a section about conflict.
We should add all views of reliable scholars, but there is no point in removing conflict especially when the Vedic texts itself mention conflict and ruining of settlements.
The advantage with Hermann is that he extensively quotes the Rig Veda's memntions of the conflicts. Which is why I used him in the first place, because of the reliance on primary sources rather than relying motsly on speculations.
It is clear Indo-Aryans and non-Aryans engaged in both intermixing and conflicts. I am not talking about Aryans wiping out non-Aryans. But there was conflict and at the same time and intermixing as well. There is no point in excluding it. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See top of this tread for why there is no point in including it. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:33, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is a point in including a conflict mentioned by the earliest Vedic text. This is not about "Aryan invasion". But some yes there was a conflict and some land was fought over. As for whether it was a full-fledged invasion, or a conflict-and-amalgamation scenario, that should be left up to the scholars. It is "DUE". MonsterHunter32 (talk) 13:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Narasimhan et al. 2018 preprint: "The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia"

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

@Kautilya3: from Eurogenes Blog, Andronovo pastoralists brought steppe ancestry to South Asia (Narasimhan et al. 2018 preprint) , citing The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia:

We document a southward spread of genetic ancestry from the Eurasian Steppe, correlating with the archaeologically known expansion of pastoralist sites from the Steppe to Turan in the Middle Bronze Age (2300-1500 BCE). These Steppe communities mixed genetically with peoples of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) whom they encountered in Turan (primarily descendants of earlier agriculturalists of Iran), but there is no evidence that the main BMAC population contributed genetically to later South Asians. Instead, Steppe communities integrated farther south throughout the 2nd millennium BCE, and we show that they mixed with a more southern population that we document at multiple sites as outlier individuals exhibiting a distinctive mixture of ancestry related to Iranian agriculturalists and South Asian hunter-gathers. We call this group Indus Periphery because they were found at sites in cultural contact with the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) and along its northern fringe, and also because they were genetically similar to post-IVC groups in the Swat Valley of Pakistan. By co-analyzing ancient DNA and genomic data from diverse present-day South Asians, we show that Indus Periphery-related people are the single most important source of ancestry in South Asia — consistent with the idea that the Indus Periphery individuals are providing us with the first direct look at the ancestry of peoples of the IVC — and we develop a model for the formation of present-day South Asians in terms of the temporally and geographically proximate sources of Indus Periphery-related, Steppe, and local South Asian hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. Our results show how ancestry from the Steppe genetically linked Europe and South Asia in the Bronze Age, and identifies the populations that almost certainly were responsible for spreading Indo-European languages across much of Eurasia.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:22, 1 April 2018 (UTC) Supplementary material p.181: "Simple Statistics Confirm Iranian Agriculturalist-Related Ancestry in the ASI". Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that the main BMAC population contributed genetically to later South Asians. I have a feeling that this observation is going to be of the most consequence as we go forward. If the BMAC contributed no genetic input to South Asia, how did it contribute its gods? Or did it contribute its gods? Have we been mistaking the BMAC religion to be Indian religion just because its books happened to be preserved in India?
The "Tale of two subcontinents" map is brilliant. For the first time, we are getting an integrated picture of all the migrations as well as the spread of agriculture. The 'Indus periphery' by 2000 BC goes all the away from the Hindu Kush to the Deccan, even while the Aryans themselves were still limited to the Punjab. (By the way, the other "subcontinent" is Europe? lol.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:44, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The BMAC contributed religious ideas to the Indo-Aryans, who moved further south. But thr BMAC people and religion are not the most important points; that are the genetic evidence for the IS-migrations, and the genetic evidence for earlier Iranian migrations, which contributed to the IVC. So, no 'pure' origins of (parts of) the Indian population, no Indigenous Aryans, and no 'pure roots' in the IVC. Some more comments:
The formation is the other open question. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:04, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I am focusing on the question that interests me the most. The Rig Veda is accepted most scholars to be of historical value. But whose history is it describing? What you are saying, viz., that the Aryans stopped by the BMAC, picked up their religion for no good reason, and moved on further south, doesn't make sense. If they believed in their religion then they should have mixed with them. In fact, they should have mixed with them before they picked up their religion. And, if that religion moved south, the mixed people that followed that religion should have mixed south as well. But this paper says they didn't. So, this tidbit from this paper immensely complicates the historical import of the Rig Veda.

As for the IVC and the Iranian migrations, it doesn't upset anything the historians have been saying. Contending theories such as the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis already assume a connection. Of course this puts the Hindu nationalists in a deep soup. But they are in it already from the Rakhigarhi DNA [1]. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:53, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some more responses, including Tony Joseph, who's a must-read, of course:
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:43, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan:, thank you for all the work. Can you update Wikipedia:Genetic research on the origins of India's population? which is not updated since 2014, I think. It will be helpful in summarizing and pointing people in future. I have summarized recent paper this, pardon me if I am incorrect:
Yes, that's correct, I think. I won't update the overview page at the moment; too much work. It's a fascinating article, Narasimhan et al. (2018). Not even so much for the affirmation of the IA-migrations, but for the insight into the history of the IVC and the Dravidians. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:49, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I read Narasimhan et al. (2018) today and yet to absorb it fully. It is truly amazing how we are untangling history with genetics. I am waiting for Rakhigarhi DNA studies which will be very important to clarify lot of things in IVC and Dravidian history. Update that overview page whenever you can, no hurry. Regards,--Nizil (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the Indus_Periphery DNA is being used as a proxy for Indus Valley DNA. The fact that this paper appeared at this time without the Rakhigarhi data means that the latter is being delayed, perhaps for a long time or even indefinitely. It is hard to get accurate DNA from archaeological samples. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:34, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how to contact moderates here and page is closed. I was going over comments from Vagheesh Narasimhan (author of the paper) on twitter, he has said that Indus_InPe = Iran Neolithic + AASI + W.Siberian hunter-gatherer, it is not just Iran Neolithic + AASI. Please take note of his comment on twitter. https://twitter.com/vagheesh/status/981720966320545792 117.198.245.64 (talk) 14:18, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, of course. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:16, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for sharing this info. (Chetan vit (talk) 19:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC))[reply]

Rakhigarhi DNA

The Caravan (27 april 2018), Indus Valley people did not have genetic contribution from the steppes: Head of Ancient DNA Lab testing Rakhigarhi samples:

“It will show that there is no steppe contribution to the Indus Valley DNA,” Rai said. “The Indus Valley people were indigenous, but in the sense that their DNA had contributions from near eastern Iranian farmers mixed with the Indian hunter-gatherer DNA, that is still reflected in the DNA of the people of the Andaman islands.”

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:24, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And it cites this preprint, which perhaps (?) merits citation in article (?) Narasimhan, Vagheesh M.; Patterson, Nick J.; Moorjani, Priya; Lazaridis, Iosif; Mark, Lipson; Mallick, Swapan; Rohland, Nadin; Bernardos, Rebecca; Kim, Alexander M.; Nakatsuka, Nathan; Olalde, Inigo; Coppa, Alfredo; Mallory, James; Moiseyev, Vyacheslav; Monge, Janet; Olivieri, Luca M.; Adamski, Nicole; Broomandkhoshbacht, Nasreen; Candilio, Francesca; Cheronet, Olivia; Culleton, Brendan J.; Ferry, Matthew; Fernandes, Daniel; Gamarra, Beatriz; Gaudio, Daniel; Hajdinjak, Mateja; Harney, Eadaoin; Harper, Thomas K.; Keating, Denise; Lawson, Ann-Marie; Michel, Megan; Novak, Mario; Oppenheimer, Jonas; Rai, Niraj; Sirak, Kendra; Slon, Viviane; Stewardson, Kristin; Zhang, Zhao; Akhatov, Gaziz; Bagashev, Anatoly N.; Baitanayev, Baurzhan; Bonora, Gian Luca; Chikisheva, Tatiana; Derevianko, Anatoly; Dmitry, Enshin; Douka, Katerina; Dubova, Nadezhda; Epimakhov, Andrey; Freilich, Suzanne; Fuller, Dorian; Goryachev, Alexander; Gromov, Andrey; Hanks, Bryan; Judd, Margaret; Kazizov, Erlan; Khokhlov, Aleksander; Kitov, Egor; Kupriyanova, Elena; Kuznetsov, Pavel; Luiselli, Donata; Maksudov, Farhad; Meiklejohn, Chris; Merrett, Deborah C.; Micheli, Roberto; Mochalov, Oleg; Muhammed, Zahir; Mustafakulov, Samridin; Nayak, Ayushi; Petrovna, Rykun M.; Pettner, Davide; Potts, Richard; Razhev, Dmitry; Sarno, Stefania; Sikhymbaevae, Kulyan; Slepchenko, Sergey M.; Stepanova, Nadezhda; Svyatko, Svetlana; Vasilyev, Sergey; Vidale, Massimo; Voyakin, Dima; Yermolayeva, Antonina; Zubova, Alisa; Shinde, Vasant S.; Lalueza-Fox, Carles; Meyer, Matthias; Anthony, David; Boivin, Nicole; Thangaraj, Kumarasmy; Kennett, Douglas; Frachetti, Michael; Pinhasi, Ron; Reich, David (31 March 2018). "The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia". bioRxiv: 292581. doi:10.1101/292581. --Presearch (talk) 00:48, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Presearch. Thanks; already did: "Narasimhan et al. (2018) conclude that ANI and ASI were formed in the 2nd millennium BCE" ff. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:26, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rig Veda

Whenever I try to add the text about migration from Rig Veda? one or the other editor makes up some reason. In the past I had added about Aryan-Dasa conflict. However I let it go as it wasn't exclusively aboit migration nor it was worth edit-warring.

This time I however did add about verses from Mandala VI of Rig Veda that may be considered to be of migration. The source I used is from the reliable Aligarh Muslim University and historian Irfan Habib.

These two User:MBlaze Lightning and User:Capitals00 who has tried to edit-war with me in the past, blame me falsely of copyright violation and using outdated translation.

First the text I wrote is not same as what is in the source by Irfan Habib and another author.

Here's what I wrote, Irfan Habib and Vijay Kumar Thakur state that the distinctions presented in the Rig Veda between the Dasyus and the Aryans who spoke Indo-Iranian dialects, suggest that they hadn't moved in from the cooler highlands and higher altitudes much earlier, thus still preserving a distinction in their complexion from the older inhabitants of the tropical plains. They consider a verse from Rig Veda's Mandala VI (47.20-21) as evidently evoking a time of such migration.

Here's the relevant excerpt from the source: All this strongly suggests that the Aryans, as speakers of Indo-Iranian dialects, had not much earlier moved in from cooler highlands or higher latitudes so as still to preserve a sense of distinction between their complexionand that of the older inhabitants of the tropical plains. The following verse from Rig- veda's Mandala VI (47.20-21) evidently evokes a time of such migration.

Even to the untrained eye it is visible what I wrote is not copied and not the same.

Also the translation I added they keep claiming as outdated, notwithstanding even other recent translations as recent as 2014 gave made the same translation. Read the relevant verses here, (https://books.google.com/books?id=5-i0AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA484).

If these two have contradictory opinion of other scholars, they can add it. If all they want to do is deliberately remove by making baseless accusations, then that isn't welcome. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 19:06, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

New text

Here is the passage that got added:

Irfan Habib and Vijay Kumar Thakur state that the distinctions presented in the Rig Veda between the Dasyus and the Aryans who spoke Indo-Iranian dialects, suggest that they hadn't moved in from the cooler highlands and higher altitudes much earlier, thus still preserving a distinction in their complexion from the older inhabitants of the tropical plains. They consider a verse from Rig Veda's Mandala VI (47.20-21) as evidently evoking a time of such migration:Mandala VI (47.20-21) evidently evokes a time of thr migration, "Gods, we have reached a country void of pasture; the land, though spacious, was too small to hold us. Brihaspati, provide [for us] in war for cattle; find a path, Indra, for this faithful singer. Day after day, from their seat he, Indra, drove them, alike, from place to place, those dark-looking creatures. The Hero slew the meanly-behaving Dasas, Varchin and Shambara, where the waters gather."[1]

References

  1. ^ Irfan Habib, Vijay Kumar Thakur. The Vedic age and the coming of iron, c. 1500-700 B.C. Tulika Books. p. 16.

What the hell is it trying to say? Who are "Dasyus"? There is no mention of them on this page. "Indo-Iranian dialects"? What are those? "The distinctions"? What are they? I see only one here, viz., "dark-looking". "They hadn't moved in ... much earlier? Why these double negations and circumlocutions? "Evoking a time". What time? This page is on Indo-Aryan migrations. There is plenty of much more straightforward information already given in the article. We don't need this WP:SOAPBOXing junk added in. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:07, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The word Dasyus is there on page 15 of the source of Irfan Habib, read it. The similar Dasas too is itself mentioned in Rig Veda. But I can change it. Habib and Thakur categorically state that the information from Rig Veda is depicting a migration. Other things such as when and where aren't there in the Rig Veda. And they don't matter. But Irfan Habib and Aligarh Muslim University are reliable. "IF YOU DISAGREE WITH A SOURCE, DON'T CENSOR IT."
This similar group of people including User:Kautilya3 and User:Capitals00 has been making baseless accusations for long. When one stops reverting, another shows up. I don't want to cross the 3RR limit or revert again. So I ask them to first prove their accusations and not make fictional claims while constantly reverting. But let's not start an edit-war and make baseless accusations. If you have a contrary opinion of another scholar, you can add it. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As for soapboxing, the content isn't propganda or my personal view. These views of migration and conflict are shared by other scholars as well. I can add contrary views as well, but there can be no pick and choose by Wiki editors of who is right or wrong. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 22:21, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not interested in what is in the book. I am talking about the text you contributed, and for which you need to take responsibility and justify it. This is an article on migrations. Why are you talking about skin color? The text you contribute here, should be relevant, on-topic and succinct. It fails on all three counts. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:35, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not interested whether you are interested in or not. it's a reliable source. As for relevance, how is something that is talking about a migration of Indo-Aryans not relevant to the page about their migration? I am not talking about skin color, the source is. Besides it is talking about complexion, not in racial terms. We don't edit based on what you don't like. Your accusations are non-genuine and just meant to suppress what you don't like. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 04:55, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are many reliable sources on this subject. We are here to write an encyclopedic article, not to quote, rephrase, or even mention most of the sources. I, and others, judge that the text you want to add is a copyright violation. You may want to read it again, extract any points that may be useful to the article, and suggest a new piece of text. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:45, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Richard Keatinge I don't understand how anyone can call my edit a copyright violation. I didn't copy the statments in the book by Habib. Only the Rig Vedic verse is copied for showing which verse is being talked about, nothing else. Outside the Vedic verse, everything else is added by my own summary of what Habib said. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 13:28, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It might help if you compare your text with Habib's. To me they look remarkably similar. Also, as Kautilya3 has pointed out, the entire text is unhelpful to this article. Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When I made the edit, I did add it on my own, I didn't copy Habib's content or wrote the same. I can't change the entire context, some similarity will always be there. I can try to change the wording again. But that depends upon me being able to edit. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 16:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MonsterHunter, we are expected to read and understand the sources, and express their substance in our own words. Contrived circumlocations like "They hadn't moved in ... much earlier" might be used in the sources for whatever reason, but we can't replicate them here. They are not encyclopaedic. The whole paragraph that you can contributed can be easily summarised by saying something like:

The Rigvedic verses VI.47.20-21 suggest an awareness among the Vedic Aryans of their recent migration.

Whether this fits into the article or where it fits is another question. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Habib is only making an observation on the verses mentioning migration to an area where the Dasas shown as dark, are driven out by Indra. There of course may be diverse interpretations about it, but there can be no censorship. Now if some scholars consider Dasas to be dark complexioned, I can't do anything. I was only looking for whether Rig Veda mentions a migration. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 16:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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