Template talk:List of great powers by date

China in 1815

Why is China called 'Qing Empire' in 1815? Sure, Qing was the ruling dynasty, but the country was still called China, wasn't it? I think this should be changed. Boot Blues (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Skogsvandraren (talk) 20:10, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

China in 1938

Only one source give China as a great power in 1938. At the time, there were civil wars going on in China and vast parts of the country were occupied by Japan. Is it really stated in the source that China is to be considered a great power at the time? Skogsvandraren (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire and China as Great Powers

China gained international formal recognition as Great Power only during and primarily after WW II by granting permanent membership in UN Security Council. Ottoman Empire during 19 and 20 century never held internationally recognised Great Power status. If we admit Ottoman Empire as Great Power, then we will have to admit also United States as Great Power from 1815 on. In 1815 US won over UK (battle of New Orleans), subsequently won a war with Mexico, gaining large new territories (plus Louisiana Purchase in 1803) and thus acting virtually as sole great power in Americas, plus economically much better than declining Ottoman Empire, and despite this United States are not counted as Great Power until 1900 in our chart.

Germany gained formal internationally recognised Great Power status after losing WW I in 1926 and Soviet Union in 1934. In that years these countries became permanent members of the League of Nations Council.Lucullus19 (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Key historic events at formimg of officially internationally recognised group of countries held Great Power status:

• 1815 - Vienna Congress. 5 officially recognised Great Powers (all european)
• 1878 - Berlin Congress. 6 officially recognised Great Powers (all european), 5 of Vienna Congress plus Italy.
• 1900 - Eight-Nation Alliance at Boxer Rebellion. 8 officially recognised Great Powers. 6 of Berlin Congress plus 2 non-european (USA, Japan)
• 1919 - Paris Peace Conference. 5 officially recognised Great Powers.
• 1926 - Germany permanent member of League of Nations Council. 6 officially recognised Great Powers.
• 1934 - Soviet Union permanent member of League of Nations Council. 7 officially recognised Great Powers.
• 1946 - Permanent members of UN Security Council. 5 officially recognised Great Powers Lucullus19 (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Empire of Brazil

I think the Empire of Brazil should be included 2A02:A44E:A90C:1:15E5:E56B:5F8:1B14 (talk) 17:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Citations? We need references from reliable sources saying it was a great power. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 13:22, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Turkey a great power

here are the sources we need. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OX3lsOrXJGcC&pg=PA61&dq=ottoman+empire+a+great+power&hl=tr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3or2z_-DWAhUEKlAKHf1pCtgQ6AEIUjAG#v=onepage&q=ottoman%20empire%20a%20great%20power&f=falsehttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NytctRcwiE4C&pg=PA73&dq=ottoman+empire+a+great+power&hl=tr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3or2z_-DWAhUEKlAKHf1pCtgQ6AEIYjAI#v=onepage&q=ottoman%20empire%20a%20great%20power&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xHluy4795U4C&pg=PA67&dq=ottoman+empire+a+great+power&hl=tr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJx_TT_-DWAhXKJVAKHUNZCw44ChDoAQhFMAQ#v=onepage&q=ottoman%20empire%20a%20great%20power&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZHRxKz0xQJIC&pg=PA231&dq=ottoman+empire+a+great+power&hl=tr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJx_TT_-DWAhXKJVAKHUNZCw44ChDoAQhVMAY#v=onepage&q=ottoman%20empire%20a%20great%20power&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgepodros (talk • contribs) 12:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Georgepodros: There are some issues about your edit.

Firstly, your suggested addition has been reverted by no less than three different editors. That means that there is no consensus for adding the Ottoman Empire to the list. The only way to go if you want it added, is to convince the community in a discussion on the talk page. If you just continue to add it without consensus, that is called edit war. Even if you so far have ignored all suggestions about learning and understanding Wikipedia rules, I will try once more: Please read WP:CONSENSUS, WP:EDITWAR and WP:BRD. If you continue to disregard the rules, you may soon find yourself blocked from editing.

Secondly, the suggested addition needs sources, not only given in the talk page, but sources presented in the article itself, in order to let other people check where the information comes from. Again I insist you read WP:V about verifiability and WP:RS about reliable sources.

Finally, the sources you have added, are not even supporting your claim. The first source says nothing about the Ottoman Empire being av Great Power. The second mentions OE as a «non-Christian Great Power in the region», but continues to describe it as «obsolescent», «on its last legs», «hastening to its dissolution». In the third source, OE is described as a «third rate power». The sources do simply not give any backing for adding the OE to the list.

I will give you a chance to self revert your addition and to start discussing in the talkpage instead. If not, your addition will again be removed. --T*U (talk) 21:12, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

@Georgepodros, stop with the edit war and seek consensus on this talk page. Antiochus the Great (talk) 11:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Overhaul of Last 2 Sections

Unlike the other 6 sections, the last two time frames (2000s and 2010s) are based on no concrete great power concerts. This needs to be changed as it has led to a misrepresentation of what nations are really great powers in the modern day, as well as causes an organizational inconsistency in the template.

The 2000s should be changed to 1975 with reference to the 1st G6 summit in which the great powers would be composed of:

UK

China

France

Germany

Italy

Japan

USSR

US

These are the same great powers as listed under the 2000s section we have currently, and adding a real great power concert to this collection of state would increase the legitimacy of the article's current claim. As you may have noticed, however, the USSR and China were not members of this concert. This does not necessarily decrease the validity of the statement we are trying to make, as the references we have listed themselves offer enough legitimacy to the claims that the USSR and China were great powers at that time. If anything, adding the fist G6 summit can only help legitimize the article as the alternative would be to have no concrete examples of a great power summit at the time.

With regards to the last section of the template, this requires more drastic changes. Currently, we have a listing which is identical to that of 20 years earlier, again with no concrete example of a great power concert. If this were the case, which I would argue it is not, we would not even need to have a separate section for these nations in the first place, as the article could simply state that the 2000s constitute the current year. Instead, a wiser way to organize a contemporary listing of great powers would be to refer the last section to the 2015 Iran Nuclear Deal, or more formally the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, as this is arguably the closest representation to a full great power concert that we have seen in contemporary history. The great power nations in this section should be composed of:

EU/UK

China

EU/France

EU/Germany

Japan

Russia

US

These nations consist of all the signatories of the Deal, other than Iran of course, with the addition of Japan. Similar to the conditions of the USSR and China with regards to 1975, there are enough credible references pointing to Japan's great power status in 2015 that their absence from the JCPOA is unfortunate, but does not completely disregard their claim of being a great power. Again it is better to have a concrete example that showcases MOST of the great powers and to have a few notable exceptions than to simply give no concrete evidence at all. Italy has also been eliminated from the list, as they, unlike Japan, do not constitute one of the top economies in the world, nor do most scholars or policy makers recognize them as being a current great power. The EU is also represented in this section, as it was given a seat at the JCPOA, showcasing that it is seriously taken at some level on the great power stage. As the EU is not necessarily a state, but still deserves recognition, its flag should be shown alongside its member states that are also considered more fully fledged great powers.

An example of what I propose can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:List_of_great_powers_by_date&oldid=840352820 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Кирова (talk • contribs) 11:15, 9 May 2018 (UTC) --Кирова (talk) 11:18, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

:Please my friend Stop with your prejudices against Italy. Italy  have one of the Largest economies of the world [1] the Third Gold reserve as well Italy is one of the Largest Richest countries of the world , See:  National wealth.  and as for power diplomacy , I think that You lack a bit of what really  means " all Global discussion" Italy plays a more Important role than Japan in Syria [2] where partecipate also Russia and China, in Lebanon [3] Where also partecipate Russia and China, so Why you Exclude Italy?, alreday there sources that cite Italy as a great Power for their inclusion on the Contact group and NATO Quint.LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 12:06, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

LuigiPortaro29 We need more than just economy to justify Italy's inclusion on that list. There are two other countries, Brazil and India, which have much larger economies and are not on the list. All the references mentioned for Italy in that reference point it as a middle power or a power withing Europe not the world. And here I am not necessarily picking on Italy. I think we need to reassess the criteria of inclusion on that list and maybe remove some countries which do have enough referneces to support it. Adamgerber80 (talk) 12:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi there Adam, well Please Read better my Comment above. and read the Sources of Italy as great Power here on the main Page. I agree with you that India should be included . Milenio Sterio writes The great powers are super-sovereign states: an exclusive club of the most powerful states economically, militarily, politically and strategically. These states include veto-wielding members of the United Nations Security Council (United States, United Kingdom, France, China, and Russia), as well as economic powerhouses such as Germany, Italy and Japan But She says also : India and Israel are great powers so India deserve!. and as for economic Power India is ahead of Italy by GDP nominal . But Please can you say me right now how much is the value in US dollar of the GDP of Brazil about 6,950.400 in Brazilian real and Italy about 1,760.017 euros? ( we are almost half of the year ...Im looking only the Nominal GDP which seems more effective when comes the International Trade matters). Cheers LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 13:51, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

LuigiPortaro29 There are multiple issues with the points you have raised. First, why is only "Milenio Sterio" considered here and not other experts and what they have to state on great powers. I believe her opinions are being given too much WP:WEIGHT. We need to refer to multiple sources here and give them equal weight. Second, what you are currently doing is WP:SYNTH which is taking something an author has said and extrapolating it to other countries. If Milenio does not mention India or Israel then they shout NOT be included. I think we need to review the list of countries we have in the modern era and only add them if we have multiple sources supporting them. For the record, I don't think India or Israel or Brazil or Italy currently have enough sources to justify their inclusion but we should examine the countries already listed on a case by case basis. I am also pinging senior editors @Antiochus the Great: and @Illegitimate Barrister: who have been interested in this page and might want to weigh in with their opinions.

Hi Adam. Well, First I have never said that Milena Sterio is the Unique source. that is the source for Italy. in the Table there many sources which Talk for other countries! , and if you see "better" the Book of Sterio then, India and Israel appears as great powers. I'm not lying to you. Im not that Kind of person. I have cited Sterio because this conversation is started about Italy and Japan.

But Why Japan is not member of the  ISG The International Support Group of Lebanon that has brought together the governments of China, France, Germany, Italy, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States? as well Japan doesnt partecipate in Syria Talks as Italy do. [4][5]. 

Guys Im starting to think that here there a certain rencor gainst Italy and that is not Good here in Wikipedia. or Im wrong?LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 18:30, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

In my view Italy, as a member of the G7 and a cultural superpower, and thanks to his important role in global diplomacy as member of the NATO Quint and the European Big Four, should be listed in this template, even if it has a weak political system that threats Italian influence in the world. However this decision cannot be taken by majority but with reliable sources, and I think we have them. -- Nick.mon (talk) 21:17, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Anyway I must admit that I’m Italian, so I could be a bit biased :) -- Nick.mon (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Кирова Perhaps you are blinded by your own national bias, Luigi, as the only reason there is any negativity towards Italy being listed as a great power is because most scholars, and more importantly policy makers in the diplomatic field, agree that it is not. Even sources that supposedly reference Italy as being a great power fail to, with Verbeek and Giacomello, as well as the Italy: Justice System and National Police Handbook quoting the nation as being a middle or regional power, not a great power. Many nations are middle and regional powers, from Nigeria, to Turkey, to India; this article, however, is about great powers, which is something that Italy simply does not meet the criteria for.

Furthermore, you mention the fact that Italy is a member of some national groupings, such as the NATO quint and the Contact group, and the fact that because Japan is not a member of these institutions they should be ruled out, or at least that Italy is on the same level of international importance as Japan because of their membership in these groups. First of all, the Contact Group is a regional power concert, as only nations that are concerned with the Balkans are members of it. Furthermore, when was the last time it met or had relevant impact on international relations? That would appear to be 2006, so it should be ruled out as being representative of the modern day. The NATO Quint has a similar history as the Contact Group, as both came to prominence around the same time and also originated as a grouping of European regional powers in the 1980s. Whether or not they truly constitute international great powers in the modern day is more questionable, and while they do interact with other great powers with regards to Syria, it is arguable that Syria is simply in Italy's regional interest as a Mediterranean nation to deal with, and thus cements their position as a regional power, but not a great power. A better example to look at is the Iran Deal talks, as this is not in the immediate region of any of the great powers, yet they all have a part in agreement, showcasing them as real, powerful, international actors.

--Кирова (talk) 21:57, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

What you say is fair enough, but I'll answer you simply with this Wikipedia article, Least of the Great Powers, Italy will be less influent and powerful compared to the other powers, but it's a great power, even if the "least" of them. Moreover I think that citing Itay as "The Least of the Great Powers" and then not citing it in the article about them, should be confusing and incorrect. -- Nick.mon (talk) 05:27, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Everyone, can we please present sources here rather then point to other articles or events like the Iran deal to determine a great power status. Also, let's leave our biases or personal opinions out and discuss based on sources. Do we have more than 1 source which places Italy as a great power? Adamgerber80 (talk) 21:52, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the Iran deal, even there Italy went in and off the P5 + 1 group a couple of times. And the Italian Mogherini was named EU representative precisely to find a compromise regarding Italy's position in the Iran dealThat is consistent with the label of "Least of the Great Powers" (if someone wants sources claiming Italy as a major power look at the first 11 sources of that article).

The point is how we present this position and that of the EU in the article.Barjimoa (talk) 03:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I agree with Nick.mon and LuigiPortaro29. I've looked at the two previous versions. I propose this compromise. We do put the EU in the 2020s but we also put a note saying that it is a sum of its sovereign states (from the quoted source used here) and that Germany and France are major powers with Italy being the least of the great powers. We should also put a note saying that Britain will remain part of the EU until 2019.

1815	1878	1900	1919	1939	1945	1975	2020s
Austria	Austria-Hungary	Austria-Hungary
British Empire	British Empire	British Empire	British Empire	United Kingdom	United Kingdom	United Kingdom	United Kingdom
					China	China	China
France	France	France	France	France	France	France
Prussia	Germany	Germany		Germany		Germany	European Union
	Italy	Italy	Italy	Italy		Italy
		Japan	Japan	Japan		Japan	Japan
Russia	Russia	Russia		Soviet Union	Soviet Union	Soviet Union	Russia
		United States	United States	United States	United States	United States	United States

Barjimoa (talk) 03:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

References

In recent years the European Union had absolutely played a key role in many important agreements and deals and I hope that it will be more and more influent by 2020, but I think that it'll not happen. However, in 2000s and 2010s Germany, France, Italy, and often the UK, had always act as a "single" entity and just in few cases they were in disagree, so inserting the EU could be a good solution, but I think it will create lot of controversies :) -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe we could keep Germany, Italy, France and UK and then add also the EU in 2010 or 2020:

1975	2010s
United Kingdom	United Kingdom
China	China
France	France
Germany	Germany
Italy	Italy
Japan	Japan
Soviet Union	Russia
United States	United States
	European Union

References

I must say again, let's discuss on base of sources not one "feels". Do we have source which justify Italy to be a great power after 2010. (And just for reference I am happy to do this exercise for every other country in that list). Now, I examine the sources provided to support Italy's claim in the post 2010 era and here they are:

(1) Verbeek, Bertjan; Giacomello, Giampiero (2011). Italy's foreign policy in the twenty-first century : the new assertiveness of an aspiring middle power. - This source itself calls Italy a "middle power" not a great power.

(2) Italy: 150 years of a small great power, eurasia-rivista.org - This is an editorial aka WP:SPS and not permissible.

(3) Italy: Justice System and National Police Handbook, Vol. 1 - This terms Italy as a "regional power".

(4) Transforming Military Power since the Cold War: Britain, France, and the United States, 1991–2012 - This refers to Italy's role during the Kosvo War which happened between 1998 and 1999 which is not post 2010.

(5) Canada Among Nations, 2004: Setting Priorities Straight - This is published in 2005 and thus cannot forsee if that is true in 2010.

(6) The right to self-determination under international law : "selfistans", secession and the rule of the great powers - This is the only source which is valid and justifies Italy's inclusion in the post 2010 era. But it also includes Israel, India and Pakistan as great powers (which are not in the list).

Now I feel just on the basis of this single source we cannot justify adding Italy, Israel, India and Pakistan to the list. So if you wish to argue for the inclusion of Italy then we need more sources which firmly states this in the post 2010 era.

The same goes for the inclusion of the EU in the list. The definition of great power is a sovereign state. EU is a grouping or a union NOT a sovereign state. For the last time, please state your arguments on basis of sources not what you feel or random events that a country was not in the Iran deal. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 16:12, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

there one and two sources of Middle power rank also for Germany and Japan there on the list. already Italy have better sources listed than Japan.

Please dear Adam check "better" before to write.... please please dont get mad. Because the last day you have accused me of a false thing, nice that we agree that India and Israel are inclueded in the Book of Sterio even if is not in the principal "paragraph". But Unlike Japan, India, Israel and others Italy Play a major role in Diplomacy that them. the JCPOA is not the Only one Ministerial group of Important countries ( maybe the most popular by media) there also other "Middle east" Important Talks as the ISG where Partecipate US, Russia, China , France, Germany, the UK and Italy as well in the Syrian case there Important Talks as for Example the ex President François Hollande of France did with the inclusion of the US, China Russia UK Germany and Italy. and as for the Iran deal , Please read better here Italy is not inclueded as well as Japan , But Unlike Japan, Italy play a certain more Important major role in the affairs with Iran than Japan.LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 17:00, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

LuigiPortaro29 I am not getting mad just having a discussion. I have already mentioned that I am not picking on Italy and I am happy to have this discussion for every country in that list. Let's focus on Italy for now and once this is done we can discuss Japan, UK, Germany as well. In the meantime, please provide WP:RS which place Italy as a "Great Power" in the post 2010 era. I have provided my analysis of the available sources which proves that we have insufficient sources to establish that Italy is indeed a great power in the post 2010 era. (I did not say you lied I claimed we cannot do so on one source and second you were doing WP:SYNTH with gold reserves which is not applicable here). As of now, all that I see is random sources which are not relevant here. I am happy to discuss if more sources are provided until then we cannot go on what we "feel" or "think" or let our personal biases guide us. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 17:12, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I understand you. the source that talk for Italy and as for Today reflects what is Italy: a great Power in Diplomacy, economy, Geopolitic ,Military. Here the sources and "no consensus" BETWEEN ITALY AND JAPAN is very .well-known , and as for Gold reserve is Huge Important for Geopolitics and that is why Italy play a major role than Japan (again). Here some Books about Gold Importance if you want you can read it. [6] [ https://books.google.de/books?id=e4u_DQAAQBAJ&dq=Gold+reserve++Important&hl=it] and here the China plans [7] However I don't believe in what China wants, the US dollar is still Huge more Important for the Global affairs.LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

LuigiPortaro29 I am sorry but I do not understand what you are trying to say. The sources which you posted here do NOT mention that Italy is a "great power". Can you please quote me exact lines from the book which do? What you are currently doing is called WP:SYNTH (please read this since I think you are not understanding it). I am going to come to other countries as well but as of now we do not have barring one source which puts Italy as a great power in the post 2010 era. It seems to me that you are currently WP:STONEWALLING the discussion. Adamgerber80 (talk) 19:51, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, I don't have so many experience Like you. Still I'm learning because I'm not perfect maybe I don't know much, But I just Have show you some Books where they speak about the "IMPORTANCE" of "Gold" in Global affairs Because you have said me "superficially" that gold is not important in this section. I just have show you what Mileno sterio means when she speak about "economically", militarily, politically and "strategically". it is necessary to explain that 2 x 2 is 4? . I have make some examples above with "reliable sources" about GLOBAL DIPLOMACY from the French Goverment and the ISG and you still say that is not important. are you STILL THINKING that India or Japan are in the same level of Diplomacy of Italy? Please dont hate me, but I needed to say that. I have cited Japan because this discussion IS STARTED WITH JAPAN AND ITALY!!!!!! and you Have said me that you dont see Italy as great Power , that is your POV , that all the sources of Italy was of a middle power you are ignoring what Milena sterio Means when she talk for "economically", militarily, politically and "strategically" . Anyway we can delete the year 2010 Because it is too short compared with the year 2000 and about for today there many confusion,( Brexit, new deal Paris Climate, etc) and of course Japan is not Playing any major role in GLOBAL DIPLOMACY than Italy. this is a Fact.as well scholars dont have always the same opinion .LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 20:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

LuigiPortaro29 I am sufficiently convinced that Italy should not be included in the post 2010 era. There is currently one source which also states other countries and this source is not sufficient. I have repeatedly asked you to avoid WP:SYNTH but it seems to be that you either you don't understand this or are WP:IDHT. Similarly, whether Italy has the same diplomacy power as Japan/India/any other country is based on sources not on what you "think" or "believe". I will now move on to analyze Japan's sources and determine if it should be included. You are welcome to chime in with your opinions but please base them on sources (and I am stressing on this for the umpteenth time). Adamgerber80 (talk) 14:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Adam, I am also that sufficiently convinced that the list of the year 2010 should be delete it all , until wait for the "year 2020".( for not make confusion between the other sources on the List) there no consensus here Because Italy is still part of the G7 NATO Quint as well have more influence than Japan in Global affairs. and this is Not what I feel , this are Real Facts. LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 15:23, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

LuigiPortaro29 Membership of G7 and NATO Quint does not mean a country is great power (if it does provide a source). Also, FYI Canada is a member of G7 but not on the list. As I have said before, unfortunately you are lettng your personal biases come in the way of editing are currently editing with a WP:POV. Your argument about 2010 now sounds farcical since you know Italy cannot be included. I will move onto Japan and Germany next. Provide a source which puts Italy as a great power not some random news article which discusses how different countries had a discussion with Lebanon. I am also happy to take this to a Wikipedia forum if you continue to WP:STONEWALL the discussion. Adamgerber80 (talk) 15:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Try to relax. I Only Have said that it is better to delete the List of the 2010, ( the year 2010 was added for a guy that was a sock puppet one month ago) So what do you want to do, Delete Italy and puting the source of Milena Sterio for the Other countries Making a little confusion?. that is unfair. Because Milena Sterio Have right to say that Italy is a great Power in 2013 in economically", militarily, politically and "strategically ways ,how much sources we need for understand that 2+2 is 4?. already the Table is Good , But as you dont like. Anyway we need Other editors here to comment in a fair way and Time maybe there other editors that Know more about sources. the Group of Lebanon calls ISG and is not random.Please do not minimize the sources that you do not like. However is Nice that you care too much about this section. CheersLuigiPortaro29 (talk) 16:13, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

LuigiPortaro29 I think I have made myself very clear. Milena Sterio source is too broad and thus cannot be used selectively. Italy can be included in the list only on the basis of that source alone and I do NOT support including other countries in that list aka India, Pakistan and Israel. I actually spent some time reading and looking up other sources. Now, unlike Milena Sterio's source which makes passing mention of Italy as a great power (among other countries), there are more references which place Italy (along with UK and France) as middle power. These sources are more recent and are actually about Italy and its foreign policy and power status thus giving them more weight. I have presented some of them below with specific quotes

Italy as a Regional Power: The African context from national unification to the present day (2016), Gabriele Abbondanza - "Middle powers are those countries that possess .... .Among these are United Kingdom, France, Japan, Italy ..."

Italy in International Relations: The Foreign Policy Conundrum (2017), Emidio Diodato, Federico Niglia - "...The issue of Italy as a new middle power in the post bi-polar system is very much contested. .... . But difficulties emerge when certain roles are considered as those of middle powers ...". In short this source builds on the "Italy's Foreign Policy in the Twenty-first Century: The New Assertiveness of an Aspiring Middle Power" source and states that Italy might not even be a middle power.

Another good point which came about this exercise was I also came across source for UK and Japan which place them as middle powers not great powers. I will analyze them next in concurrence with the sources existing on the page to check if it justifies their inclusion. I am happy if other editors watching this page want to chime in. Please base your discussion to scholarly sources (or provide one if you think I missed out on something).

Lastly please read WP:WEIGHT before you bring in any sources and remember this is not a VOTE. This is a discussion based on the merits of sources and not a vote on what editors "feel" so there is no concept of "Majority". So, please stop WP:CANVASSING. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Adam, Well I'm not accusing you, But I say what I see. ( even if you claims that you dont picking on Italy)

and Why I say this? First you have said that ALL sources for Italy on the table was of a middle power.( without even see the sources listed on the table). then you Have said that the source of Milena is good that is the only source which is valid and justifies Italy's inclusion in the post 2010 era. but Italy have only one source after 2010. now you said I think I have made myself very clear. Milena Sterio source is too broad and thus cannot be used selectively. as if you're against any inclusion, Please don't hate me , I just say what I see and If someone read all the conversation then can understand what Im talking about. the sources of Milena is a good one source of the year 2013 she talks about economically, militarily, politically and strategically ways, that possibly India is also a great but only for the nuclear Bomb. is a sufficient resource for the year after 2010? NO. but remains a good source for Italy. Simply I feel uncomfortable here with what I see then I have talk with Nick.mon , He also have commented on this discussion, I have also talk with the user Mikeblas , since he was very kind to fix the Italian source in the page of Great power, I have talk about this source : Political atlas of the Modern World Year 2011 By Andre Melville, Yuri Polunin , Mikhail Ilyin and Others. in this Book talks about comparison between a cluster analysis of countries exertin maximun influence on the International Arena ( China, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, UK and the US) the US , Russia and China leaving for their own clusters of the worldwide influence "core", the UK stays with France , Germany, Italy and Japan . [8] looks a good source for Italy! this book talks about countries in international affairs like in the UN, Economy (IMF Voting power), military ,geopolitical, etc. and Honestly today in the 2018 things are the same like in that year. ( UN; IMF, International Trade, etc) they make a cluster for the countries with more influence.

about the sources that you have cited here: Italy as a Regional Power: The African context from national unification to the present day (2016), Gabriele Abbondanza - "Middle powers are those countries that possess .... .Among these are United Kingdom, France, Japan, Italy , Germany etc. this Book give more weight to countries with large population and forget some of those with more influence in international associations like in the UN and IMF. so here again... No all scholars agree. and for the other Book... well , what I can say , the Book say also that Japan Germany are middle powers or great powers?, I have also found a Book were they talk that Germany is not a great power! , I have also found a Book " Stalking the antichrist" of the year 2013 were they speak about great powers with the inclusion of " China, India, Brazil" as the new great powers and the old great powers " UK Russia Japan, Germany Italy and France".LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 16:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I am having a bit difficulty in keeping with your stream of thought. Here is the summary of mine, we only have a single source which places Italy as a great power post 2010 and this not sufficient. We have more sources with more WP:WEIGHT than this one which place Italy as a regional power. Sorry, I do have the analysis for Germany, Japan and UK lined up next but have been busy with other pages. I will post them soon. Adamgerber80 (talk) 21:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Now, what Problem you have with this source? [9] LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 15:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

A world atlas does NOT carry enough Weight as a scholar published source. The world atlas is about world information (very tangential to the topic) while the sources I have presented are about Italy and it's power status. Thus, they carry much more significance. Also, do remember, that asking other editors to do proxy edits for you are frowned upon. Adamgerber80 (talk) 15:32, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Italy

A government which changes its prime minister like a pair of gloves? Financial issues, and all the mafias? Italy a great power, are you kidding me?Ernio48 (talk) 19:24, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Ernio48 Welcome to the discussion. Feel to reply above but please keep your arguments based on the sources we have (or provide more to help in the discussion). Your current statements are, IMO, personal views which we cannot discuss on. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 21:17, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Turkey 1815-1900

Many claim that Turkey was not a great power in the above mentioned period. I can find dozens of sources which proves it is. If I can find these sources then you have no right to delete them. I will provide them on this section soon enough.

Ottoman Empire

The Ottoman Empire was a super power of the world. It was a great power until in 1918 the end of the World War I. Even in the article List of modern great powers it has been mentioned as a superpower. If Austria-Hungary can be considered as a super power why not the Ottoman Empire.--Perseusittk (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

The article List of modern great powers does mention the Ottoman Empire as at the height of its power in the 16th–17th centuries. About the period relevant here it says the OE "during the 19th century was still a considerable power ... but the empire was in a condition of decline and during this period lost progressively its influence, and the majority of his territories were conquered by other powers". This does not support the claim that OE was a "Great power" in 1815, 1878 and 1900. Before you try to re-add this claim, you will need to present reliable sources (see WP:RS) that explicitly support the claim that OE was a great power in 1815, 1878 and 1900. --T*U (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

There has been a lot of contention on this page. Please provide WP:RS, gain consensus. IMO, when I had a look at this sometime ago Turkish Empire did not meet this criteria. Plus there are other countries here which also should be removed. Have a look at the discussion above. Adamgerber80 (talk) 16:25, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Addition of more members in the template.

As per advice of LuigiPortaro29 (talk · contribs) I have read the references, at least most of them given in the template article for ITALY and JAPAN being great countries in the 2000s. My inability to recognize italian in some cases may have hampered my judgement but IMO not to a large extent.

What I have seen is articles from not so reputable sources and sources which doesnot have esteemed authors.

But in my research I have seen countless articles on great powers where they should include India, Saudi Arabia or Brazil as Great Powers .

This it is my conclusion that at least sone of this countries be added to the list.

SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 10:56, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't support the inclusion of any new country as of now. However, there is an open issue of some countries which need to be removed. See discussion above. I will get back to it sometime soon and complete that. Adamgerber80 (talk) 19:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Italy, a great power in 2020?

Can you folk please tell me how we're justifying Italy as a great power coming into 2020? Lets take India as an example here. India has a larger economy, much stronger military, is actually a nuclear power (with intercontinental ballistic missiles and a nuclear triad that even countries like Japan and UK don't have), yet India is not being considered a great power for the purposes of this template but we're keeping Italy? Furthermore, the sources cited for Italy being a great power are from the late 90s or early 00s. Its been 20 years since and the world has changed dramatically. The one recent article from 2013 talks about Italy and Germany as "middle powers". So do you guys think its time to remove Italy? On that tangent, should we be adding India? The Great power article itself describes India as a great power but its missing on this template. Imperial HRH2 (talk) 15:57, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi, lets focus on sources you updated in the interest of maintaining neutrality and productive discussion of classification of great power. the new column seems a bit premature for the year 2020 . copy and paste the same sources of the years 2000 and 2010 for the year 2020 and cutting "only" italy it seems a bit arbitrary. Have we sources for the year 2020?.--LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 20:11, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

No offence but I can see countless sections here discussing Italy's lack of legitimacy as a great power in 2010 yet it seems as a proud Italian yourself you're being very biased towards the your country and dismissing everyone's opinion. I can see you've also engaged in various edit wars over the topic. Either way, I didn't remove Italy from 2010 because I really didn't want to have a Wiki argument over this. Furthermore, if you really want to focus on Italy then the sources for Italy themselves are vastly outdated, with some being published in the 90s. The latter sources for Italy describe it as a "middle power". I will update the 2020 sources for India as a great power.Imperial HRH2 (talk) 02:24, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I understand your point. I would suggest to focus us only on sources and avoid things that have nothing to do with it. see that I'm not against the non inclusion of Italy in the column of the year 2020. your decision to delete only Italy and copy and paste the same sources from the 2000 and 2010 years to the 2020 years is quite arbitrary. Note that your accuse of warring actitude to me seems a bit out of place. the last warring notice that I had was the last year in December with a sock puppet.( and was because I didnt understand that term and only to prevent the destruction of that page.) most opinions without sources against Italy are sock puppets, or accounts activated only to support themselves. as for the source of Milena Sterio (2013) cites Italy and Germany as great powers not as middle powers. the source of Verbeek, Bertjan; Giacomello, Giampiero (2011) cites Italy as small "great power"/ "power", or midle power. note that only the US, Russia and China are great powers in that term.--LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 08:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Finding sources supporting Italy as a great power after 1945 requires quite rigorous cherry-picking. As of 2020 great powers, isn´t quite early for such topic? Pavlor (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Pavlor Hi!. in fact it is rare to find sources from academics calling Italy as a great power, anyway theres some Reliable sources calling Italy as a great power. the column of the year 2020 is Unsourced and added arbitrarly because simply the decade is not happen yet, a column in style POV with the same sources of the 2000s and 2010s to the 2020 years.--LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 16:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Pavlor, LuigiPortaro29 Lets get rid of 2020 then, and remove Italy from everything beyond 1945. I mean who are we kidding here. If Italy is a great power then so are another dozen countries like Spain, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Canada, Korea, etc. Imperial HRH2 (talk) 23:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)