Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 December 27

< December 26	Deletion review archives: December	December 28 >

I didn't create the article for it to be deleted. I even said on the article's talk page that I understood that the article was liable for speedy deletion, and I even rebuttled with a statement on the article's Talk Page. My article was titled "Cosmic Flight Entertainment," I cannot type out a whole perfect article that you might expect at the moment, especially when it was about 3 AM whenever I was typing it. This has been at least the third time that I have tried and created the same article, but you ignoramoses keep deleting it.

Your next step is deletion review. I didn't delete Cosmic Flight Entertainment because it was imperfect or unfinished, but because it failed to assert notability.--Kchase T 19:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and I understand that. As stated before, I did intend to further develop my article, so that it may meet the specific guidlines.

Putting "assertion to notability" more bluntly: why should anyone care about this group? Why do they merit an article? What makes them important or significant? Answer that question and you may have yourself a good reason to head to DRV.--Kchase T 19:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Because I feel that their background needs to be told, I've seen dozens of articles that render the same thing that I am trying to accomplish, and even those, I love reading through. This article is basically for informational purposes, which is what, I think anyway, Wikipedia should be. Yes, you may not understand what I am getting at, but if you un-delete the article, I will show you that I can create an article that "asserts notability" by updating the article with current projects, news, etc. One such article that I belive deserves to be deleted more than my own article is Mondo Mini Shows, just off the top of my head. I mean, even I am willing to create a more relevent article than that, and I will create a more relevent article than that.

George Nozuka

4:3 is not consensus. (I hesitate to add that the article passed the criteria the nom used as grounds for deletion.) Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 20:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Master E.K.

My article on Master E.K. is deleted and protected by Admin Zoe. I have provided enough third party links to establish notability and also links to the directly related websites. I have described the article in my own words with a couple of lines still needing rewording. I request any other admin to look into this and help with restoration. This is a genuine article and the links I provided in the deleted page will prove it. Admins please look into this —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jalamani (talk • contribs) 19:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC). [reply]

Although the person is a non-notable guru, the most recent reason for deletion was because the article was a copyright violation. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

GuildCafe

AfD is a discussion not a vote. None of the individuals indicating the article should be kept actually provided any material which would show the article meets WP:WEB. Tarinth claimed to have found some via google, but no google searches I did provided any non-trivial coverage of the site outside a bunch of rehashes of the press release which WP:WEB clearly addresses as not being enough to satisfy the criteria for notability. In fact a search is here [1] which shows their home page, a blog, wikipedia, a forum thread, and then the start of a bunch of mentions of the press release. If there IS non-trivial coverage, great. I'd just like to actually see it. Crossmr 18:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse closure. Discounting the absurd slippery slope argument, there was obviously disagreement as to whether the coverage was non-trivial. "AfD is not a vote" doesn't mean "I can ignore disagreement if I'm obviously right". -Amarkov ^blah_edits 18:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WEB is rather clear on what non-trivial coverage is, and reprintings of the press release are not it. Outside of that and forums/blog coverage there didn't seem to be anything else and nothing else was presented. Disagreement doesn't give license to keep articles simply because enough people disagree with its removal if the basis for their disagreement is unfounded. That is a rather slippery slope for a group of editors to show up and use WP:ILIKEIT arguments to keep any article under the sun simply because they disagreed with its removal. Claiming a trivial mention is non-trivial is no different than any other argument presented there.--Crossmr 18:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:WindowHome

WindowHome template is widely used in Italian Wikipedia. I found nothing similar in English one. Of course, if any is available, I will be glad to use it. Otherwise I would appreciate if you could keep it. Thank you in advance.--Dejudicibus 14:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How is this used? I don't get it from the deleted history, and the TfD was only based on the lack of pages using this template. Tizio

I began to use it in my User page (which is now garbaged) and I planned to use it in my contribution after some minor refining (as adding an icon in the top bar) since it allows to create a box with an header, a footer, and other features. You can see it in [2], for example. It is very useful and I see nothing similar here.--Dejudicibus 16:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I undeleted so your user page looks proper again. I recommend publicizing it, for instance on WP:VP, otherwise it should be substed into your user page and redeleted. Templates only make sense if they're used across pages. ~ trialsanderrors 19:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

JasperReports

I cant find the Afd (there may have been one but I cant see it) and without seeing the Afd discussion, I am appalled that this article has been deleted with 816,000 google hits: this reporting engine is one of the best open source report engines. I have recreated the article as User:Jayvdb/Saved pages/JasperReports from the Google cache[3] in order that I can make use of the material that I saw a few weeks ago. I see, now that I have previewed this Deletion review (and looked at Special:Log), that User:Aaron Brenneman performed this deletion. John Vandenberg 04:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted this as having no claim to signifigance, aka advertising. A number of google hits is not an indication of notability, and the speedy deletion criterion says if something "would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic" it may be speedily deleted. A "fundamental rewrite" is one that would include sources other than press releases. If multiple reliable third party sources for this are found, then a stub may be re-written. - brenneman 04:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aaron, I can understand this article being deleted by someone who isn't familiar with the problem domain, as it was worded as if from a press release (a {{advert}} or {{copyvio}} tag may have been more appropriate), but I do expect administrators to go through the hoops of putting a tag on the page for long enough that others can respond. If you bypassed this, and immediately proceeded to carry out your own judgement, and if that is permitted by wiki process, then IMO there is something wrong with the process. A speedy by an admin should be put on the same queue as other speedies, and carried out by a different admin to ensure it passes by two at least two sets of eyes. John Vandenberg 06:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've placed a longer response on Jayvdb's talk, but the short version is: True, but... We almost always get it right, and there is literally NO ONE who'll object to a well-written user-space article that demonstrates notability from reliable sources being moved into the real encyclopedia. - brenneman 07:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but in the event someone does get it wrong, isnt this the place to come? I dont see why there is any reluctance to have the article restored; it's notability has been easily demonstrated, and this article hasnt been recently created, so there was no impending doom if it wasn't removed post haste. To further illustrate this, it has been linked to from Java Platform, Enterprise Edition for over a year and a half. My guess is that the article history goes back as far, and I would prefer that the history was retained so that people who have linked to specific version of the article are not left scratching their heads. In this case, I do not see that the article text justified deletion -- it was not blatant advertising -- it was primarily informative, but clearly written by a fan. It did not need to be completely rewritten in order to be encyclopaedic, it just needed a tag, like {{sources}} or {{advert}}, and a minor rework by someone familiar with the problem domain to include evidence of notability and other tweaks in order to become a good stub. John Vandenberg 08:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

John, in your quest to recreate, I suggest you start here. It may keep it from being speedied in the future. --jaydj 05:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I havent met archivesearch before, so much appreciated! I will be improving the article as soon as the original history is restored. (t'was my intention to do so today when I was rudely shocked to see a reasonable stub had become a redlink when I wasnt watching). John Vandenberg 06:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the article. I guess I can see how people not in the field might get thrown off, but this is clearly a notable subject for an encyclopedia article, and certainly does not fit under speedy deletion guidelines. --Cyde Weys 18:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't do that while discussion is ongoing. I've placed the {{tempundelete}} template and protected the page as is convention when there's contention. There's a version in user space linked above that can get a shiny-fied up if it's possible to do so.
  brenneman 02:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Unless reliable independent sources provided, the article is a fair game for AfD, although I agree that speedying an article with a resonably long history is kinda disrespectish to multiple contributors. `'mikkanarxi 22:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Try these Google Scholar hits. Of course JasperReports is notable. It has O'Reilly books written on it. It has over 900,000 Google searches for Chrissakes, and hundreds of them are various tutorials, walkthroughs, or custom libraries. It's obvious that this subject at least deserves an AFD (though what it really deserves is to be kept). Anyone fighting in support of this outrageous speedy deletion is simply wrong. --Cyde Weys 04:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:CSD "The "Speedy deletion" policy governs limited cases where Wikipedia administrators may delete Wikipedia pages or media 'on sight' without further debate." The article was clearly in an advertising voice from start to finish, so it met the speedy deletion criteria under which it was deleted. We encourage but don't require deleting admins to determine if there is a better version in history (not that I see), but don't expect them to do even a google search of research. Speedy deletion of an article does not mean that the topic does not merit an article, just that the existing text is not worth keeping around. The entire article does need to be rewritten to be appropriate for Wikipedia, so the deletion would have been correct if it had cited G11, as the explanation above does (sans acronym). The deletion log shows A7, which I don't think is applicable to this topic. (The second deletion by a different admin of a fraction of the article does show G11.) Since I conclude that the entire article needs to be rewritten, I endorse deletion despite the citation error in the deletion log. If it is indeed as notable as Cyde thinks, recreation will be easy, and will be completed in userspace before this review has run its course. GRBerry 05:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it , this process is intended to allow recovery of articles that have been deleted unnecessarily in light of further consideration, based on the Wikipedia:Undeletion policy. That I can fetch the page from the google cache and recreate it as better version does not factor into this discussion one iota as far as I can tell, and justifying the G11 status it was initially given doesn't help. As I have stated here and on my talk page, I can see why G11 may be used as a reason for the deletion (I see it as justifiably incorrect), but I contest that if G11 was used this liberally across the board, administrators would speedily delete a large percentage of wikipedia on sight, as much of it is written with too many superlatives. Please point out what part of the article is Blatant advertising, and/or why wikipedia would be a better place with the article expunged from the history. John Vandenberg 08:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

undelete this one please per cyde weys he makes good arguments for notability so overturn this soon Yuckfoo 06:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article should never have been deleted. --Kaoti 16:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
keep deleted. The supporters had plenty of time for addressing the major concerns of notability. Please don't forget that we are not deleting topics. We are deleting poor articles. If original contributors don't bother to fix it, why don't we just wait another serious person writes a good one? There is nothing unsalvageable in the deleted article, mostly cut and pastes of promotional materials. (That is why it was deleted in the first place, I guess: zero third-party independent evaluation). Mukadderat 05:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, trialsanderrors 08:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Undelete. The userspace version does not have to be "fundamentally rewritten' to meet our standards, so this was a bad G11. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chuck E. Chaos

This is an appalling decision after all the work I did sourcing the article. I firmly established notability with the work I did, and I was told only 24 hours ago that it wasn't enough - a point I strongly dispute, and barely enough time for that point to be sorted out. No one told me what was wrong with the article in more specific terms so I could address it. Saying that it failed WP:NOT and WP:BIO without specifics is not enough and I firmly believe it does NOT fail WP:NOT. CURSE OF FENRIC ^{home talk usage} 08:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, now the article has re-appeared while I posted the above, and yet the AfD discussion still says delete??? CURSE OF FENRIC ^{home talk usage} 08:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn deletion, keep undeleted, whatever. Sources came late, obviously meets standards. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural note: despite being closed as delete, logs (so far as I can see, anyway) do not appear to indicate that deletion was ever actually carried out. Serpent's Choice 14:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. Even after the sources were added, deletes came in, and the only extra keep after that was "speedy keep, bad faith nom", which is entirely inapplicable. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 16:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

American Professional Football League

This page was listed under Articles for Deletion (see AfD above template), and the majority of users who voted said Keep. However, the admin (Samuel Blanning) deleted it anyway, which I think is an abuse of power. I left a message warning him and informing him that if he did it again, I would inform the proper admins to investigate as to whether he should be desyssopped (did I spell that right?). I think that should be reviewed, as the decision did not reflect the consensus. Tom Danson 03:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion as the closing admin said verifyablity is non-negotiable. If the league is covered in reliable sources then an article can be recreated citing them. If not, it should stay deleted. Eluchil404 07:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. The league and teams' websites are listed on their respective pages, aren't they? They have news stories and original photos, don't they? How more reliable can you get than that? Tom Danson 07:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse: AfD is not a vote. None of those commenting addressed the issue of WP:V, and that, as Sam said, is non-negotiable. David Mestel^(Talk) 09:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. Keeps seem to be based on the misperception that notability means a free pass on verifiability. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 16:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure as there were no links to verify the league or the teams, but there are sufficient Google links to reliable sources that the articles can be recreated. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

W00t

Clear consensus was not shown for deletion. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 01:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I believe that the term is notable enough to deserve its own page, as do leet and pwn. I don't even LIKE modified text that much, don't give it much attention at all; but w00t I know and love. The fact that a person who isn't all that aware of such language, and in fact abhors it is defending the word should be some indication of its notability, as were the citations on the now deleted page. If Wikipedia is a big enough tent for overlong fancruft like this; we certainly have room for w00t. Thank you. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 02:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment w00t may be somewhat comparable to pwn/pwn'd but leet is the name of the whole style of language Bwithh 02:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Beware of the Pokémon fallacy - crz crztalk 02:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Beware the fallacy of rules. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 02:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Inappropriate selective notification!! - crz crztalk 02:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - crz, I don't recall getting notification of your intent to AfD the article. I'll assume good faith, and guess that it was lost in the mail, yes? -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 02:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Notification of AfD is nice, but not required. Danny Lilithborne 03:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        Is "selective notification" a violation of policy or procedures? Is ANY notification required? Please let me know if I've erred, and I won't make the same mistake twice. crz: you found the DRV in a timely fashion, did you not? Did I cloak the DRV is some way that I was unaware? Did I not inform the deleting admin, per policy? I'm not sure what crz's accusation is here...and make no mistake, there is an accusation (by him, of me) here of bad faith. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 05:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        Also, *cough*. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 16:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure I think the closure was completely valid. By my simply head count, there were 9 keep !votes, 14 redirect !votes, and 6 delete !votes. Aside from redirect getting the plurality (which, I agree, is not consensus), some of the keep !votes were "keep because I like using w00t" or "keep but source" (but, of course, if an article isn't sourced, it isn't an article). This wasn't the neatest, most clear-cut closure ever, and I certainly see why Weirdo (great name, BTW) brought this to DRV, but I don't think the closer was at any fault, considering that a strong majority (20 vs. 9 = 69%) did not feel that the word needed its own article. I !voted redirect, though I have no problem with w00t as a word nor with internet slang terms having their own pages, but regardless of my opinion, I agree with the closure. -- Kicking222 02:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- And now I'd like to amend my statement to note that I feel we should restore the edit history per everyone below. Of course, there's a huge difference between keeping an article and creating a redirect but deleting the history outright. -- Kicking222 14:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Question Was there a compelling reason to delete the edit history? A delete and redirect is usually only performed if the old article and the new redirect are unrelated, are if there is objectionable content in the edit history. ~ trialsanderrors 02:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I noticed that as well, when I went to try and expand the entry here, using the old entry. Very odd, indeed. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 02:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It's definitely as notable as other internet slang terms with their own article. Heck, I've heard it used more than half of them. Slicedoranges 03:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure per Kicking222 Danny Lilithborne 03:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endore redirection, but restore history behind redirect. Presumably, the article discussed the slang term as mentioned at the new target, so there's no reason we have to discard the GFDL information, and should further sourcing arise in future it will simply the resplit. Serpent's Choice 06:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete but keep redirected. There was no reason at all for the deletion, and it crushes the possibility of a merger if things are verified. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 06:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article can be restored in userspace; as of now it stands as unencyclopedic and the information that is available about it over the internet is on research articles dealing with l337 speak. And, uh... by the way, the deleted edits can be restored when "the stuff" is verified and notable. — Nearly Headless Nick 07:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um, yes, the article can be restored. In fact, that's why I said "Undelete." But you're missing the point that regular users won't be able to see it when it's deleted. I don't know if you're aware, but regular users can research and insert footnotes, too. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute?
Undelete but keep redirected. Deleting the history serves no purpose, and removes the accessibility of GFDL information that could possibly be cited and included a some point in the future. --Delirium 09:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think undeleting the history is controversial, so I am doing it. - crz crztalk 16:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete - Like someone said, its as notable as any other leetspeak term and a scandal that it was ever deleted. If someone finds some verified research then we have an article. --Mozman 17:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion (redirection, whatever), keep the history. No reason to remove it, because it wasn't terrible, but notability is not a free pass on verifiability. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 16:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure. It's rather baffling that people think arguments for keeping like "I love the word w00t" should be taken seriously. No reliable sources were found... internet "I like it" bias lost for a once, let's move on. --W.marsh 19:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed, you ARE baffled if you believe such an argument was made here. Please point to such a statement. Thanks. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 19:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - It was a copy and paste of a comment from the AfD, the closure of which is what we're reviewing here. --W.marsh 19:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Does it strike you, weirdo, that you're being ridiculously confrontational? Please relax. Not overturning the w00t AfD will not be the end of Wikipedia. - crz crztalk 19:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - I really, really hope that you are making a bad joke, crz. In this thread alone, you've accused me of a baseless made up violation, and now you are calling ME confrontational? I suppose I should count my lucky stars that you haven't stalked me offline again, or Googled more photos of my acting career. Physician, heal thyself. Decaf, dude. -- weirdoactor ^t^|^c 19:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

==Cosmic Flight Entertainment