Jump to content

Talk:Leopold II of Belgium

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 80.200.232.97 (talk) at 19:57, 5 September 2020 (→‎Encyclopedia). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Template:Findsourcesnotice


Overestimation

According to this Wikipedia article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo, there were 12.2 million inhabitants in 1950. It doesn't make sense that 50 years earlier (Leopold II died in 1908) there were 30 million inhabitants in the Congo. According to Adam Hochschild (the most controversial writer on the subject), Leopold II killed a maximum of half of the population: 15 million. 15 multiplied by 2 = 30. 30 million Congolese in 1908 ? This figure doesn't make any sense. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a work of fiction. If you want to write fiction, go ahead, but refrain from doing so here. Steeve P (talk) 12:56, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have reverted your unsubstantiated edits. The material in this article is well sourced from Reliable Sources. Please discuss here further. Your argument (that the Congo's population of 12 million in 1950 precludes a larger population in the past) is not logically sound, and not supported by references. Scholarly consensus today puts the death toll at somewhere in the magnitude of 10 million. Hochschild is hardly "the most controversial writer on the subject", and you have misrepresented what he wrote. -- Elphion (talk) 04:31, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The argument IS sound. Wikipedia is not a work of fiction like "Heart of Darkness". It's an encyclopedia. This article on Leopold II is overly exaggerated. I don't know whether Congolese people like Jean-Pierre Nzeza Kabu Zex-Kongo (the author of "Leopold II, the Greatest Head of State in the History of the Congo" ("Léopold II, le plus grand chef d'État de l'histoire du Congo")) are right when they say that Leopold II was the best "Head of State" of the country, but I know this is exaggerated. I also know Leopold II made the first schools and the first hospitals in the country. He actually made thousands of them! He ended the slave trade. He made the first cities: Kinshasa (was founded by Stanley in 1880 and called "Leopoldville" by him two years later), Lubumbashi, Kisangani, Mbandaka and the others. He made most of the roads that are used today, like the N1 from Matadi to Kinshasa and from Kinshasa to Kikwit. He made the railroad from Matadi to Kinshasa. He made several churches as well, like the Saint Leopold Cathedral in Ngaliema (a commune of Kinshasa). He had the idea to unite the 450 different tribes with one common language, one common religion and one common education system (Nzeza Kabu Zex-Kongo, p.83). Dear Elphion, how long have you lived in the Congo region? How long have you helped Congolese people? It seems that you don't know much about the subject. Who is the most controversial writer on Leopold II? Please understand that "Heart of Darkness" is a novel. Conrad hated his time in the Congo, everyone knows that. Let me know about the other "scholars". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steeve P (talk • contribs) 22:14, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • No, your argument is not sound: a population can be significantly reduced and then fail to recover for several decades. Nothing you have mentioned rules that out. That the population had declined by about 50% during the Free State period was in fact the conclusion reached by the Belgian government when it assumed management of the Congo in the early 20th century. As for Conrad, you will notice, I hope, that the article never uses him as a reference. There are several other, non-fiction writers, scholars, and investigators who have come to similar conclusions -- and they are already referenced in the article. The pious tale that Good King Leopold brought all the benefits of Western civilization to the benighted Congo is simply not historical, and it has been debunked several times over. That he was actually up to no good is strongly suggested by the fact that he had all the administrative records burnt before handing the colony over. -- Elphion (talk) 22:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also could not support that argument. We have to stick to the best quality independent reliable sources. Your argument is getting into WP:OR terrority, and goes against the consensus of established research in this area. Until high-quality independent WP:RS say it, we can't I'm afraid. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 09:53, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I find it odd that nobody has compared the population fo the Congo with neighbouring areas. Assuming that 10 million Congolese died during the Free State period (a ridiculously high number by any account) and that this due in part to Leopold's harsh regime, there should be a significant demographic drop in Congo's estimated population numners comapred to neighbourign regions. As far as I'm aware there is no indication for such a significant comparative drop in population.

Secondly, the number if supposed victims should be offset by the estimated total population of Congo.

It is telling that no reference is being made to such estimates, even to they are crucial to the argument. Yes, there are references to 'estimated eaths'- but ithout further references this is nothing but an educated guess'.

The introduction mentions a 'consensus' on an estimated 10 million deaths, without reference. The retort that such references are made further in the article doesn't apply here, where there is no reference at all, nor any mention of the fact that all estimated deaths are just that: estimates. And whetehr there is 'consensus' on such estimates or not doesn't change the fact that they are estimates. As the introduction remarks, estimates range from 2 million to 15 million. That in itself is telling enough: hard data are simply not available to reach anything beyond a 'consensus' on 10 million. The result is still nothing more than aan estimate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.168.225.91 (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • References generally are not required in the intro; the matter is discussed in more detail in the appropriate section of the article, which *is* referenced. The estimates are clearly labeled as estimates. These estimates are not "ridiculously high numbers by any account" since several accounts by professional historians do contain them. By nearly all accounts, there was significant loss of life in the Congo. The preponderance of the evidence, as referenced, points to a figure somewhere on the order of 10 million, though that is necessarily an imprecise figure, as advocates on both sides point out, and as we mention in the article. But the imprecision is not evidence that the deaths didn't happen. As for other areas of Africa: this article is about Leopold, not other colonizers. I hope you're not about to make the argument that high death numbers in other colonies somehow excuses the ravages of Leopold's regime. The European exploitation of Africa around the turn of the 20th century in general has few heroes, but as Hochschild points out, the evidence suggests that the death toll in the Congo seems abnormally high for this period. -- Elphion (talk) 12:22, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
cf "an estimated 10–15 million Africans died" - the 2 references don't lead to e.g. calculations taking into account the historic numbers of birth-rates, population numbers, etc and then calculating backwards, comparing that to neighbouring regions. Anybody has references to that e.g. as in this spreadsheet

"Population RDC during Leopold II and ballmarks on the numbers of estimated assassinated Congolese/Africans under his reign"? Thy, SvenAERTS (talk) 11:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article that elaborates on this issue - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State#Estimates - mentions "Other estimates of the size of the overall population decline (or mortality displacement) range between two and 13 million." and "Jan Vansina returned to the issue of quantifying the total population decline, and revised his earlier position, he concluded that the Kuba population (one of the many Congolese populations) was rising during the first two decades of Leopold II's rule, and declined by 25 percent from 1900 to 1919, mainly due to sickness. Others argued a decrease of 20 percent over the first forty years of colonial rule (up to the census of 1924)." - so shouldn't the "an estimated 10–15 million Africans died" become "an estimated 2–13 million Africans died"? Thy,SvenAERTS (talk) 12:08, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

His Statues In Europe Are Drawing Vandalism--And Calls For Removal

In the wake of the killing of George Floyd, statues of Leopold II are being targeted by vandals amidst calls for removal:

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/115178/leopold-ii-statue-set-on-fire-in-antwerp/

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/115013/i-cant-breathe-leopold-ii-statue-defaced-in-ghent/

https://www.brusselstimes.com/brussels/114713/petition-launched-to-remove-statue-of-leopold-ii-in-brussels/

How can we incorporate this development into the "Death and Legacy" section?TH1980 (talk) 02:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

only very few people (crazy extreme leftists) support this, dont make it as if the whole Europe wants this... 2A02:A03F:8B18:9300:ACA9:BE5C:A026:20F8 (talk) 15:25, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

to the list of statues:

add: Statue on the facade of the town hall in Leuven. In 2018 a student brought attention to the statue by attaching a note about Thomas Kanza, the first Congolese student to be admitted to the University. source: https://www.demorgen.be/nieuws/student-beklimt-leuvens-stadhuis-om-standbeeld-leopold-ii-onder-de-aandacht-te-brengen~b18d2bef/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

To the statue in Lokeren. The statue has been removed on 9/6/2020 and is said to be moved to a local museum. https://www.hln.be/in-de-buurt/ekeren/omstreden-beeld-van-leopold-ii-weggehaald-uit-dorpskern-van-ekeren~ac4d1066/ 81.164.141.19 (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. TheImaCow (talk) 13:01, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The lengthy introduction is excessive.

Elizabeth II has a one-sentence introduction. Henry VIII & Adolph Hitler have a one-paragraph introduction. I haven't looked at others, but the introduction for Leopold II seems very excessive. Readers simply do not need to read about HM Stanley, the Berlin Conference, etc. in the introduction.

I would recommend that the introduction be shortened to the following, with the changes/additions bolded:

.

Leopold II (Dutch: Leopold Lodewijk Filips Maria Victor; French: Léopold Louis Philippe Marie Victor; 9 April 1835 – 17 December 1909) was the longest-reigning Belgian monarch, reigning from 1865 to 1909.

In modern times, he is most well-known as being the namesake of Villa Leopolda, for his establishment of the Congo Free State, and for the many allegations of brutality during his reign of the Congo Free State. Although estimates vary, it is generally accepted that several million Congolese died during his reign -- primarily from disease, but also a significant number of deaths as a result of brutality, murder, and an impromptu monetary system that used severed hands instead of typical forms of currency, which led to militarized groups collecting hands from innocent victims for profit.

Although the term "genocide" has often used to describe the brutality of the Congo Free State, the events that took place fall short of meeting the criteria for such a description, most notably the intent to eradicate all or even most of the entire population.


.

If even this is viewed as being excessive, it could be ended after the first sentence of the second paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.37.102.223 (talk) 05:17, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do not view the current intro as excessively long. Per WP policy, It should be a good summary of the article. And in this case there's a lot to cover. -- Elphion (talk) 13:07, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting off statues sections proposal

I propose that both sections Statues in Congo and Statues in Belgium be split into a separate page called List of statues of Leopold II of Belgium especially the latter. This section is large enough to make their own page and much of its contents is WP:RECENT. StellarHalo (talk) 10:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support : currently the list rather overwhelms the article, with far more detail than necessary for a biographical article. -- Elphion (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support : second that Zoocat56 (talk) 17:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support : I diddent find any king on wikipedia that has a list of statues on his page, this is nonsense under pressure of far left activists, why even a page? the pictures should just be on wikimedia commons, like with every other king... 2A02:A03F:8B18:9300:ACA9:BE5C:A026:20F8 (talk) 15:41, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. This list certainly is not appropriate for this article but does not seem inherently notable. It seems inspired by an WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:RECENTISM. Some content can be merged into List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests but most of the rest should probably be deleted. —Brigade Piron (talk) 18:17, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The statues have generated a lot of talk in the media, but they do not belong in this article. A separate one is needed. -Indy beetle (talk) 17:24, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support for splitting off, not for deleting. --PJ Geest (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Leopold's gains from Congo Free State

There are several mentions of the fortune Leopold extracted from CFS, but no monetary value is mentioned — is this just an oversight, or is there a reason? I've come across a NYT review of the book 'King Leopold's Ghost', where the author apparently cites research by Jules Marchal, saying "Marchal, the Belgian scholar, estimates that Leopold drew some 220 million francs (or $1.1 billion in today's dollars) in profits from the Congo during his lifetime." Could this be regarded as RS? And if so, could/should it be included in the article? Or does anyone know of another figure and/or a better source? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedia

I call upon the decent people working at Wikipedia, do not turn this website in to woke activism, because you will lose all credibility with the center people (Majority), and this project will be lost forever, please!!! Don't be stupid!

Be fair and balanced, thanks.

2A02:A03F:8B18:9300:ACA9:BE5C:A026:20F8 (talk) 15:31, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would be interested to know what part of the article you consider unbalanced or unfair. Leopold's personal responsibility for policies instituted for his personal gain that led to extreme hardship and death in the Congo is by now incontrovertible. (I do think the detailed list of vandalized statues is rather overkill; it suffices to mention that some were vandalized in the past, and more in the wake of George Floyd's murder.) -- Elphion (talk) 18:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are also sources that claim that the population grew under Leopolds rule, that there where not even 10 million people present in the congo, at the time of arrival of Stanley, but i dont see anything of that here... No you choose to use the source of a political activist, and his book 'King Leopolds Ghost', with a few pictures of mutulated africans as proof, and also if you add up all the africans on those pictures together you will not even have 100 people, certainly not millions... and they might not even be of the Congo, they can be taken anywhere in Africa, i also saw on BBC documentary, that stanley was not aproached by Leopold as described here on wikipedia, but that rather Stanley first aproached Brittain who did not want to hear of it and then aproached Leopold, this is what a Congolese historian says on a BBC documentary, yet wikiepdia goes with the source again of a political activist... Wikipedia is becoming a Political far left website because it uses sources from political activists in Media and education... And yes Media and education is ran by Far left activists, specialy on this kind of subjects... 2A02:A03F:8B18:9300:4507:9B47:3030:352C (talk) 00:24, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The author of 'King Leopold's Ghost' is a historian, not a political activist, so it is a reliable source. Media and education is ran by far left activists? Sounds like a conspiracy theory, there is no place on Wikipedia for that. --PJ Geest (talk) 09:03, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, the cognitive resistance among conservative Belgians, and their knee-jerk reaction to tarnish Hochshild and shoot the messenger because he bears unwelcome news is truly amazing to watch. But Hochshild is certainly not the only modern writer to point out the historical reality; and you have to wonder how the Belgians can overlook the testimony of the original witnesses back in the early 20th century. What must all those people have had against poor King Leopold! -- Elphion (talk) 18:34, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A conspiracy theory lol.... ok, first Media and education is right wing yes, they are all supporters of Trump for example because they are so Right wing... we hear that every day, how in the news how they love him, how they love salvini, how they love Boris Johnson, how they love Orban and so on, to denie that media and education is left wing is a conspiracy theory, so yes indeed for you there should be no place on wikipedia, who are you kidding, you are clearly not living in reality!, and 4.000.000 people died during the napoleonic wars, you are telling me Leopold killed 15.000.000 people with a few hunderd mercanaries, right... they where superman, with magical murdering spells, and where is the proof? oh yes there is no proof...., just 1 single book, your entire genocide theory is based on 1 single book from a political activist. wow that is really very scientific... lol 80.200.232.97 (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for showing your true face, by denieing Media is left wing, something everyone knows, and only left wing people denie, and talking about ognitive resistance among conservative Belgians, and their knee-jerk reaction... you have shown what you really are and what you really represent, Wikipedia is a left wing pedia runned by left wing activists... 80.200.232.97 (talk) 19:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to the unproven Adam Hochschild conspiracy theory, where he talks about 15.000.000 people killed in 12 years... lol according to that calculation a few hunderd Belgian mercanaries then would have killed about 3.424 people per day and mutulated thousands more.. RIIIIIIIGHT! 80.200.232.97 (talk) 19:57, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Leopold_II_of_Belgium&oldid=976908725"