Talk:Tonality

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Jan 2004 – Aug 2004

This article needs to be rewritten

I will attempt to do this over a number of weeks, and would be pleased to receive feedback from the previous writers. I've had a go at the opening. Tony 14:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

'subtonic'

I have to admit that I've learnt something new here: a term for the lowered seventh degree of a tonal scale. It's unfamiliar to most musicians, although I'm having second thoughts about having removed it from the table. Tony 14:57, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I assume that means that you removed it because you think it is unfamiliar to most musicians. I am curious to see the survey or study you base this on. What do you call the lowered seventh degree (or rather the seventh degree a whole tone below the tonic) of a scale? Hyacinth 12:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I have several factual and POV problems with Tony 01's edits.

1. While the focus on tonic triad is historically correct, it hasn't been the case for a century in theory or practice for a century. Quartal harmony has been regarded as tonal for almost a century.

2. Calling it "European". This is excessively ethnocentric, it may have originated in a certain area of Europe - and many folk musics are not tonal even in Europe proper, however, it isn't "European" in the same sense as the "European parliament" or being tied on a continuing basis to Europe.

3. The second inversion is the second inversion, it shouldn't be removed.

4. A great deal of music is not made by the media system, and there is a far amount of commercial popular music based on india's system of ragas, which is not, in the definition that Tony argues for "tonal".

5. Other modes that church modes have become very common - including blues and the magic scale - in modern tonal practice.

The changes seemed more appropriate to say, common practice, which was far more a European or European derrived musical system.

Stirling Newberry 20:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It seems that you should go ahead and add these facts or make the relevant changes, then - they are all good points. Just keep the prose concise... (What do you think, Tony?) Dave 21:36, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to discuss the changes Tony 01 would like to make, I'm not clear what is being added. Stirling Newberry 22:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

What is the magic scale? Hyacinth 12:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh my god, you've reverted the entire effort? That's hard to believe. I'm afraid I have problems with WAY too much of the previous, and sadly, current text. We're going to have to go through the entire text, bit by bit, I'm afraid, because the existing article is woefully inadequate. To take the points you raise, one by one:

(1) Please provide references and justify your statement that quartal harmony is tonal. I think that you'll find little support for this assertion among music theorists. Tonality is almost universally regarded as being based on the triad, and thus having ended in art-music during the 20th century. Quartal harmony, as practised by, say, Bartok, is regarded as being a move away from tonality. The article should be plain and simple for a non-specialist to read. Going with the conventional notion of tonality is the easiest way to do this. Alternatives, such as quartal harmony, might be mentioned further down in the article.

(2) Whether you like it or not, tonality WAS a European development, just as the drone was an Indian innovation; pointing that out doesn't mean that the drone is solely Indian. I felt that NOT mentioning 'European' was ethnocentric, since it may have implied that what was essentially European was global. Constraining the definition to a geographical and cultural area is necessary if tonality is to be compared and contrasted with other music traditions.

(3) I'll accept reference to 'second inversion', but not without explaining that it's essentially different from root position and first inversion.

(4) Please be logical: I wrote that tonality 'remains the dominant feature of popular music'—that DOESN'T mean that popular music is entirely tonal, as you assume I stated or implied in your fourth point. The statement stands perfectly well here, since it's important to explain the waning of the system in traditional European music, against its flourishing in popular music worldwide. Why on earth shouldn't the article start by positioning tonality in cultural terms?

(5) I don't understand the relevance of that point; it can be dealt with later, and is not inconsistent with my proposed opening. The opening should paint the big picture in cultural and technical terms. The new text doesn't seem to be inconsistent with most of your objections.

Chords are quite different from triads, and tones from notes. Let's use the terminology precisely and consistently, to minimise confusion in the relatively uninformed reader.

I hope that we can do this co-operatively rather than fighting a war. Doing a complete revert is like starting a war.

Tony 02:59, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

PS, Stirling, I've just read your personal page, which is very much to my liking, politically and musically. I do hope that we can co-operate in the rewriting of this article. Tony

My earlier talk comments were eaten by a browser crash, sorry for taking so long to get back on things.

1. I'd have no problem with "originated in Europe" but "European" implies still presently a phenonenon limited to Europe. Not in line with current theory, where other musics are now thought of as tonal (including some from Africa) and a wide range of practioners are non-European.

2. Globally India Pop, which is based on Ragas, has millions of listeners and and makes thousands of records. It's more popular in Africa than US pop us. Most popular music isn't really accurate. One can say commercial pop based on US models is tonal, by way of the incorporation of African modes and tonality into R&B and Jazz, but that requires some explanation.

3. The second inversion of chords is relatively common pre-1760. Bach has a famous use of a second inverted I as a substitute subdominant in es ist genung. The second inversion fell out of favor with the practice of Mozart and Haydn, and in fact one can separate out real from fake Mozart based on Mozart's characteristic of using German sixths rather than the second inversion of the Vth. (cf. Maunder) Second inversions are also used in guitar music relatively frequently and are a standard part of the guitarist's arsenal.

4. Quartal harmony has been regarded as part of tonality for some time. No one calls the impressionists "atonal" and few question the tonal credentials of quartal using composers such as Scriabin, Debussy, Sibelius or Hindemith. In fact Hindemith's theory of tonality includes quartal harmony, and his Harmonie du Welt has extensive quartal passages, and that is generally regarded as a tonal work. According to many theorists, especially Schenkerans, tonality is shown by the through base, and it matters far less which chords are built, so long as the urlinie in top and bottom is present.

I suggest we make tonality/temp and work on the article there, bringing it up to standard and then pushing to the main page - as there are a large numbers of stakeholders in this article.

Best Stirling Newberry 03:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Stirling: Thanks for your reply, which contains some good points; I think we have to come to a consensus about the semantic boundaries surrounding the term 'tonal/tonality'.

I'm very on-side with Schenker; although I don't know as much as I should about Schenkerian analysis, his basic theory informs my outlook on tonal language.

I'm unsure of the ramifications of making the article 'temp', since I'm relatively new to Wikipedia; is it explained somewhere? I'll respond in detail soon. Tony 15:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

1. Setting up a temp page is easy, we copy the current article there, work on the temp version,a and when there is consensus move it forward.

2. Remember we are here to document notable uses of the term, and label where they come from, so that a reader who comes here with a reference to tonality in hand, will be able to find the use they see in the source.

Stirling Newberry 16:24, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Are you able to set up the temp page, then? I wonder whether it would be diplomatic to signal to other stakeholders that this process is occurring.

So you advise opening with a semantic, definitional approach? Is it appropriate to list the various meanings of the term 'tonality', and then perhaps to embark on further, more detailed explanation of one or more of these meanings?

Tony <tony1@iinet.net.au>

Tony 07:35, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Let's start with the opening para

Currently it's this:

Tonality is the character of music written with hierarchical relationships of pitches, rhythms, and chords to a "center" or tonic. Tonic is sometimes used interchangeably with key. The term tonalité was borrowed from Castil-Blaze (1821, François Henri Joseph Blaze) by François-Joseph Fétis in 1840 (Reti, 1958; Judd, 1998; Dahlhaus). The term is often used as being synonymous with Major-Minor tonality, but is, in more recent theory, used more broadly to encompass a number of systems of musical organization.

In my view, there are several problems that we need to address.

(1) 'is the character of'—what does it mean? How about: 'Tonality is a system of writing music with hierarchical relationships ...'. (2) I don't understand the inclusion of 'rhythms' in the hierarchical relationship to the centre. (3) A central note applies to most of the music cultures in the world, and doesn't distinguish tonality from pretonal music in the European tradition. I've always understood the unique aspect of tonality to be the central triad. Much renaissance and medieval music, for example, lacks a sense of triadic/root movement. Isn't this important in defining the tonal system? (4) The second sentence may confuse the reader; can someone give an example of exact interchangeability between 'tonic' and 'key'. In any case, is it important enough to put in the second sentence? (5) 'is often used as being synonymous' needs to be reworded. (6) If 'tonality' is to be broadly defined, as appears here, I wonder whether a separate article is required, perhaps entitled 'The tonal period', or 'European tonality', or something like that. Alternatively, an account of tonality as many people understand it (i.e., the system that was dominant from about 1600 to 1910) could be dealt with in a separate section here.

Tony 04:28, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Through-bass versus thorough-bass

Having undertaken a typo cleanup of this otherwise excellent article, I found several references to the term "through bass". As these linked terms have no target article, I wonder if they too are typos and should actually be "thorough-bass". Thanks, Chas 2 October 2005 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.66.100.17 (talk • contribs) 20:28, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to copy-edit the article. I'm not an expert in the field, but certainly it seems from context like they intend to say thorough-bass. So the question is whether or not "through-bass" is actually an acceptable variant; I honestly don't know, but Google doesn't seem to think so. If it is valid, we can make a redirect so that linking through-bass will take you to figured bass. —HorsePunchKid→龜 06:21, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think it's far from excellent, and requires a complete rewrite. Tony 07:09, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

And what about the question at hand? Or was your point that by rewriting the article completely, the links to through-bass could be removed? —HorsePunchKid→龜 19:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I hope that it is helpful. The term should be "thorough bass", normally without hyphen. However, why not use the more common term "figured bass" (after mentioning t b on first occurrence)? Tony 00:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I have chosen to write it as thoroughbass, (without space or hyphen) not only because this form links directly to the relevant article in wikipedia (Figured bass) but also, following a little research, I found it is the form used by such authoritative sources as: Oxford University Press, The Encyclopedia Britannica. and Microsoft Encarta. Chas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.191.174 11 October 2005 (talk • contribs)

Tonicality

I don't think that the term "tonicality" is common or accepted enough to appear in the introduction, so I removed it. Hyacinth 09:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Peter Schat, in Tone Clock (ISBN 3718653699, 1993, p.26), argues that "'tonal' and 'atonal' are the wrong words" yet puts tonicality in scare quotes at its first appearance. Leigh Landy, in What's the Matter with Today's Experimental Music?; Organized Sound Too Rarely Heard (ISBN 3718651688, 1991, p.94), explains that he uses the term to embrace "all music, be it modal, strict tonal, pentatonic, or whatever, as long as it is based on tone centers". Hyacinth 12:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Length

• This page is 36 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size.

The article is too long. Hyacinth 09:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Audio samples

The audio samples of mozart are too fast to get the point across. Someone should make them slower.

Table of Tonal Functions

I just read this article for the first time today, and I'd like to help with the copy editing because there is a lot of material here that I could more readily agree with if it were only expressed in simpler, easier-to-understand language.

The first suggestion I'd like to make is about the "chart" of tonal functions. It seems to me that this is completely anti-intuitive and more difficult to understand than it should be because the whole thing is arranged upside down. I mean, heck, the first this you see is that the "supertonic" is below the "tonic!" So I'd like to suggest that the table be rearranged as follows. I need to learn a little bit more about how to center the text before I can do this myself, but in the meantime if anybody has any objections or comments about how to improve this, please state them over the next few days, and I'll proceed accordingly. Spventi 06:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Table of Tonal Functions

Roman Numeral	Solfege	Name (Function)
I	Do/Ut								Tonic
VII	Ti / Si							Leading/Subtonic
VI	La						Sub-Mediant
V	Sol					Dominant
IV	Fa				Sub-Dominant
III	Mi			Mediant
II	Re		Supertonic
I	Do / Ut	Tonic

Did you mean to make this table?

Function	Roman Numeral	Solfege
Leading/Subtonic	VII	Ti/Si
Sub-Mediant	VI	La
Dominant	V	Sol
Sub-Dominant	IV	Fa
Mediant	III	Mi
Supertonic	II	Re
Tonic	I	Do/Ut

Hyacinth 07:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No, actually, I meant exactly what I proposed, although perhaps it is better to have the numerals and solfege names to the left. I would like to find a way to make this table easier to understand for people who do not already understand these concepts. Musically, these relations only have meaning along a time line, and I think that spreading it out horizontally helps illustrate that. After all, we never show scales as clusters of notes on a single stem. Also, it would be nice to find something that implies visually that things beging and end at the tonic. Maybe we need a graphic showing these relationships arranged around circle with the tonic at the top. See what I mean?

Spventi 08:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Several serious problems

This article makes a number of claims about the relationship of perceptual processes, the overtone series, and musical tonality that should be identified as being more controversial than they currently are-- see specifically the section "Uses of the Term", subsection "By nature". Far more seriously, the citations backing up these assertions are of the lowest quality- not to peer-reviewed journal articles, but to self-published books and personal web-pages which make extremely broad and untenable claims that are far from mainstream viewpoints in music theory, history, or cognitive science.

If the relationship of tonality to the overtone series should be handled (which is certainly interesting and important), it needs to be done by citing reputable sources.

There are also a number of factual errors. Eg:

These scales are referred to as "diatonic" because it is felt that there are two fundamental centers of attraction: the tonic note and the dominant note.

This is not why the scale is called diatonic.

I'd go as far as saying that this is probably the worst article I've ever seen on Wikipedia!

Chris 19:41, September 6, 2006 (UTC) User:Redpony

Note that this article also uses [at least] six other sources besides the Fink citations. If this is the worst article you have ever seen on Wikipedia, I must assume you haven't looked at many articles.

Factual errors may be removed, marked as such in the article, or moved to this section of the talk page. The false diatonic etymology was added fairly recently. Have you noticed any other errors?

Do you have reputable sources regarding the relationship between the overtone series and tonality? Hyacinth 22:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

As always, if you are knowledgeable about a topic, improving the article yourself is allowed and encouraged. Factual errors? Fix them! Don't see the cites you want? Add them! Kwertii 20:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

There's a fairly good chapter on the definition as well as definitional problems associated with tonality in a disertation from the early 90's that cites the more established authorities on tonality on the music theory/musicology side. Even though music theory is a fractured discpline (it's tough to balance the applied needs as well of performers, composers, and historians with the intellectual trends brought on by developments in psychology and the cognitive sciences), there are reasonably standard definitions for tonality which would provide a more clear starting point for redoing this article according such that it meets Wikipedia's standards. Of course, this dissertation and its sources don't delve go into the epsitemological questions that seem to be occupying certain authors of this page (and which are interesting), but those might be more properly brought up in a discussion in terms of music cognition and what the constraints on a musical cognitive system might look like. Lehral & Jackendoff's Generative Theory for Tonal Music and David Temperley's Cognition of Basic Musical Structures (the intro at least) describe some of the issues associated with the relationship between music theory (and theoretical constructs/descriptions like tonality) and the musical intuitions of listeners, composers, and performers. Still, the theories that would seek to connect structural elements of music with intuitions (and more remotely, with physical phenomena like the overtone series) are highly speculative and not well worked out (compared to something like, for example, modern theories of syntax in language), and relying too heavily on them would not be appropriate for an encyclopedia entry.

Redpony 03:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Intro accidentally removed

Sorry for the carelessness. Fixed it right away —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greenwyk (talk • contribs) 11:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC). Sorry -- like you (whoiever originally accidentally removed the introduction) I also accidentally removed your comment about it, and replaced it as fast as I could -- but forgot to sign "Greenwyk." I seem to have lost your identity in the process. Greenwyk 01:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Several serious problems 2

Agreeing with the call for citations about the "natural" basis for tonality, since they exist, I have added them.

To make the article a little shorter, someone may wish to move the citations down below, under references and sources, and possibly refer to the quotes and viewpoint descriptions only by author's name & year (Reti, Gustin, etc.) in the "by nature:" category.

Using the number format may not be agreeable to some. So change that if desired. Or put the whole list of quotes, descriptions of theories and views, & authors down below under "Theory of tonal music" where there is more room (which would be best I think) -- and simply outline the list of various authors on both the "nature" and the "nurture" side of the debate (the latter has many sources, but I haven't chosen them yet -- or someone else may know better which should be chosen & quoted), and put the short list under the "by nature:" subhead under "Uses of the term."

No strong feelings about this, except that the sources and quotes, now known, should be listed to meet Wiki "balanced POV" guides, whatever one may agree with about any of the views. I don't believe the accepted view of this controversy is as "nurture" as some say -- maybe in music academia, it may be. But in science & archaeology academia, and in the general public (tonal popular music as evidence) it isn't that settled by far, and much more leans toward "nature". Greenwyk 08:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The 'nature definition', part 3

• The citations are interesting; however, I still think the "nature definition" has problems that must be addressed (although it should be noted that I am not arguing necessarily against the content, merely the form).
  • First, the "nature definition" given seems to be trying to account for the fact that tonal music is learned very naturally and automatically by children (giving rise to the phenomenon of child prodigies), that tonal music seems to be understood automatically and without special education by everyone, and in similar ways (e.g., in most contexts everyone hears a leading tone as "leading to" a tonic). These aspects, in short, make out not a "natural" definition of tonality at all, but a psychological conception of tonality (since it accounts for learning, understanding, and hearing), along the lines of Chomsky's psychological conception of language. Furthermore, it supports a specific, rationalist (cf. the Bourke quote) theory of human musical competence that presumes that humans are predisposed to acquire/internalize certain musical systems and not others because of features of the human mind/brain, the auditory perceptual system, etc. This theory wants to account for the fact that the features of tonal music (the notes, intervals, chords, rhythms, meters, etc) are what they are and not some other way. And it wants to account for the seeming non-arbitrariness of important elements of tonal music (eg., the intervals of importance are related to the overtone series, the rhythms and meters are related to simple whole-number ratios of their beats). In this theory, these facts are not accidental, they are motivated by the way people's ears/brains/minds work.
  • The psychological definition is a perfectly wonderful definition of tonality (in fact, defining tonality without talking about its effects on hearers is certainly possible, but not really very interesting), and it is well-accepted that some kind of rationalist theory is almost certainly correct. In light of this particular theory, the data-points cited (the failure of alternative systems of musical organization (atonality) to become popularized, the prevalence of perfect and consonant intervals in the world's musics) are potentially interesting. But, without an explicit theory, they can be construed in a variety of ways.
• In short, I would propose that the "nature definition" be replaced with a "psychological definition" of tonality. Under this definition, the "essence of tonality" is the nature of the perceptions that listeners have of tonal music. That is, it elevates the shared agreement about what is consonant, what is dissonant, patterns of tension and relaxation and about how tonal music "works" to be the defining feature of tonality. In this definition, if one wanted to bring in the "nature vs nurture" debate (I would avoid those terms since they are over-used, vague, and politically charged), there can be a discussion of two possible theories for why tonality has the features it has:
  • "The empiricist theory" (which is popular in some academic circles) says that all of music is learnt by convention and any possible system could be learnt (imagine one where loud notes act like dominants and soft notes are tonics). All music is culture. I'm not sure who to cite here- this viewpoint is popular in music history departments and music theory departments.
  • "The rationalist theory" (which is popular in other academic circles). This says that the human mind/ear is predisposed to learn some musical systems rather than others. In particular, it can account for the universal distribution of consonant intervals, the prevalence of the pentatonic scale, isochrony, etc., without having to attribute this to coincidence. Here, you might cite Lerdahl&Jackendoff (1981) or anything where Steven Pinker or Jackendoff talk about music, as well as all the citations currently under the "nature" definition (although I think this section is far too long- the details of this argument are better suited to a pursuasive piece, not an encyclopedia entry).

• The bottom line is that if we want to keep some discussion on the relationship between "nature" and tonality, we must make the theories that explain this relationship explicit (since tonality is presumably something created by humans/the human mind, it is therefore in some sense "outside nature", and explanation for the relationship is required). If we cannot do this (or if we think there are too many theories to account for, or they are too tentative), then I think this section should be removed completely since failing to do so undermines Wikipedia's neutrality.

Redpony 21:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I cannot offer a definition of tonality as you ask. But I believe it is naturally caused. Whether caused internally (hard-wired) by the physiology of the ear, or by the external structure of sound acoustics, or both, is not conclusive in general academic circles.

However, the idea it is all learned is not generally adopted in archaeology nor in musical physics. There is no desire to accept coincidence as an explantion when archaeology and other sources keep bringing up new studies and artifacts with 5 and 7-note scales, similar or the same. The world public (in general) practices tonal music, and by that, seems to agree, even historically and prehistorically.

On the other hand, the present musical academics are loathe to change their view about conditioning being in vogue, namely, that we can "learn anything" equally well (namely, tonal or non-tonal music). But they have invested lives and careers heavily in non-tonal or post-tonal music and Skinnerian theories of human learning and -- in my opinion -- are stuck isolated there for some time to come. Most in that area still know little or nothing of the last 20 years of music archaeology, nor much about acoustics, which contradicts their views.

I would tend to believe that a section on nature/nurture could be written from what already exists in separate places in this article. Combine it, represent the major theories, including mine, I would hope, and indicate the evidence that is presented, so far, in the sources so far recently listed.

The nurture view needs to be sourced, quoted and presented -- or can develop on its own, as there is clearly a passion for it when we see some editors asserting that origins of music and is all "guesswork" and that all is "learned." If you believe that is true, and a notable view, then present it, rather than preventing, any other view.

Regarding internal or external "forces" or explanations for widespread similarites in scales, intervals -- and notes seeming to be related (much as we see likenesses among family members' faces -- despite the differences), note:

Remember this happens whether we learn it from the nature of sound we hear from overtones of much-used octaves, fifths and fouths -- or whether the ear processes the matter internally as a physiological or biological effect. We don't have to solve this issue of which or both, today, in order to proceed.

Tonic, dom and subdom, all arise from people knowing nothing of acoustics; They are the 3 chords that easily harmonize almost any melody, West or East; They are parallel to the loudness of the overtones of the three most widespread intervals, thus originating tonality along with the scale (including "leading tones," which happen many places -- Scotland, or China, called pien, meaning "becoming," "crossing over"). Or Leave out those least loud overtones (3rds & 7ths), and you have the pentatonic. Monumental coincidence or a simply explainable pattern? Encyclopedias can record the history and description of a debate -- like evolution vs. creationism -- and should in this case as well.

I would love to do it, but as a long-time author in that debate, I restrict myself to sources, citations, journal/book quotes, and minor edits, because unlike Brittanica, Wikipedia editors jump down my throat for even existing around here. But I will propose some things in talk, if no one else will write it. I have researched for over 50 years (and published with more than fair notability, especially recently) on the origins of music, scales (melody), harmony, etc.

I leave it to you all to agree either removing the debate altogether (very wrong, I think) or finding a way to make it known to readers in a NPOV. Neutral doesn';t mean we must make the matter inconclusive. Only that we present all the views fairly, and let the readers conclude what they wish. --Bob Fink Greenwyk 06:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To Bob Fink: I hope you reconsider your decision. As an experienced author you should contribute - and test your patience with other editors. That's Wikipedia. Old Palimpsest 19:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Needed citation placed in sources

Removal of all of Pleasant's views left item 2 without its reference (for "similar findings"). Reposted short description of Pleasant's findings & work. Also entered missing source for Pleasant's book.) Greenwyk 17:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The phrase in the section Theory of tonal music last paragraph, last sentence, which reads: "(if anyone ever did so)" should be removed by whoever added it. The sources for this belief (that the diatonic is a Western scale or invention) are extremely numerous among writers in the music academic community, especially in music theory and ethnomusicology (midst terms like "Eurocentric" for those who see tonality and diatonics as in any way "natural"). I thought it was common knowledge, but I guess not.

Even in the next section, history of the term, the last paragraph there begins with an example of that very same or similar bias:

"While tonality is the most common form of organizing Western Music, it is not universal, nor is the seven note scale universal...." -- a view, which while not held in science, anthropology and archaeology academia (when a view is held at all), it is almost the "official line" of music academia and composers therein.

However, if anyone really needs a citation, I can provide many -- as can anyone, just by looking for examples of similar statements in any history of western music textbook or by searching google (possibly for the search phrases: "our scale," or the "Western scale," etc).

If no one comments, I'll remove the phrase, as it implies a negation of the verifiable accuracy of the statement to which it is attached. Greenwyk 19:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Justify removals

The midi which demonstrates to listeners that the Kilmer version of the oldest known song is tonal-sounding provides information that removal of the midi prevents readers from hearing. I will replace the midi unless there is some reason for suppressing it from being heard. After all, this article is about tonality.

The observation that the holes in the Neanderthal flute match the spacing of a do-re-mi-fa sequence found in modern flutes (such as an Irish whistle) is not a POV. It is a fact verified simply by looking at the match of the spacings which have been measured. The match can be visually seen at Divje Babe (and at other websites which have requested permission to reproduce the picture).

Removing this factual observation appears to have no reason for it. The holes, whether human-made or chance-made, are there and can be seen and measured. Describing the actual appearance of a match is valid whether the disputed bone is a flute or not. Unless a relevant reason for claiming it is a "POV" is provided (other than asserting it's POV), the comment will be replaced. Bob Fink, 65.255.225.41 14:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The midi is rich media, which should not be linked directly from an external link. If you think it should be content in the article, upload it to the wikimedia commons and link it from there.

As for the 4-holes idea, that's a point of view taken by your own research. The argument is at Talk:Divje Babe, and I won't bother with it here. The claim that is it POV is based on the fact that there are multiple published opposing viewpoints which you are well aware of (Chase, Nowell, d'Errico...). Just because you find the evidence conclusive does not mean the rest of the academic community does (and by the published sources, they clearly don't). - Rainwarrior 20:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

There are no published statements by d'Errico, Nowell, et al, which deny there are 4 holes. None. D'Errico, Nowell, et al, unlike yourself, have not redefined the meaning of the word "hole" to mean "made by humans." Only you have done that to claim a POV exists.

What they deny is that the two end holes (called "holes" at one point or another by everyone's writings -because they are "holes") were made by humans. The chewing damage around the holes indicated that, to them, the holes were caused along with the damage. But to deny they are holes is to deny the meaning of plain English. Even a non-round hole is still a hole. There's a very large English comprehension difference between denying they're holes and denying one view of how the holes were made.

You are inventing this phrase: "4-hole view" as a semantic fiction to justify it's some kind of POV. But as you well know, no one (not even myself) has used the phrase "4-hole view" or anything like it. The statement is not a POV by any Wiki guideline or rule you can cite. The statement will be restored unless you can come up with something more reasonable. The point you fail to realize is that even if the object is not a flute, the statment regarding the scale-spacings match and the line-up is still true, whatever word you use for the 4 "openings, holes, bites, etc." Whether important or not, on principle I cannot allow the squelching of a truthful statement.

As for the midi issue, I will comply with your request about that. Bob Fink 65.255.225.48 23:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The ends may contain semicircular indents. Your claim that it is a "hole" is a claim that there was a complete hole before the chewing damage. If you are not claiming this, then the issue of "in line" is meaningless, because chewed off ends are perpendicular to the two complete holes (at which point the question of a do-re-mi scale as the sentence I trimmed is no longer relevant). The assertion that there were two additional holes in the bone before carnivore damage is YOURS, and not d'Errico's, Nowell's, Morley's or even Turk's. Again, this is a discussion for the Divje Babe page, and not here. Many of these other archaeologists don't even believe it's a man made artifact. And as I said at Talk:Divje Babe the lack of a published rebuttal to you does NOT INDICATE their agreement with you. The status of the artifact is in dispute and to say otherwise is purely POV. - Rainwarrior 06:59, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of the statements in your above paragraph are outrageously untrue, false, and unfounded. I will not continue to be provoked by statments the facts of which -- to correct -- will simply use up time, disrupt everything, and serve only your desire to target me, my edits, references, or verified information. Nothing to be done except to revert or replace your ridiculous edits for the incompetence that they are. Since you won't read -- or cannot understand accurately what you read -- of Turk, or me (even in Talk) and of others in the literature, or quote them or me rather than invent your own warped meaning about what was written or what I said, I'm finally aware I'm discussing with a deaf wall. You are impervious to evidence, facts, and believe you are infallible. You don't even seem able to consistently or accurately express the meaning of, or define the word "hole." You'll find someone else to drive crazy with distractions, but not me any longer. If you don't like it take it to an arbitrator. Happy New Year. --Bob Fink 65.255.225.52 05:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

You can attack the word "hole", but the real issue is that the status of the object is clearly in debate, and my edits make this clear. The assertion that it is diatonic isn't even really the major problem, it is the implications of it; For the presence of the diatonic scale (which is contested by Chase and Nowell, whether or not you think you have a counter-argument) to be relevant we must already assume that it IS a flute, and that it IS man-made. Both of these ideas are very much disputed, and to say that its holes match the diatonic scale without qualification is directly misleading. Again, the argument is at Divje Babe, and not here. - Rainwarrior 09:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of understanding the difference between "observations" (or measurements or evidence) and interpretations: Let's say the hole spacing matched the tooth-span of a wolf? Would making that unqualified observation be "misleading"? Or is it fair to mention as an accurate item of evidence? If truthful, it would not prove a wolf made the holes. Nor disprove it. It would just be an accurate observation. It's not necessary to assume holes are carnivore made just because the holes match an animal's tooth-span. Likewise, it isn't necessary or true that noting the holes match a diatonic sequence assumes the POV that it actually was intended to be diatonic.

To say that either observation cannot be made would in effect suppress evidence the reader has a right to know was measured. (BTW, for the record: None of the holes matched any animal's tooth-spans. That issue was examined and measured, and agreed upon.) The reader of those observations (re: wolf, or diatonic, either of which are provable by simple measurements) can him/herself decide what to make of them without hints from the article's writers or editors. Thus the separating of POV or interpretation from observations and measurements should remain separate as part of the scientific method. Bob F. Greenwyk 02:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)