Talk:LibreOffice

Graphic Export

One of the major advantages of LibreOffice is the ability to export as .png graphic files. It is not in Apache OpenOffice 4.1.6, nor in Microsoft Office Professional Plus 2019 Word Version 1808 (Build 10354.20022). The pixels per inch can be set as high as 600, although 300 gives beautiful results for text. The disadvantages are that it can only do one highlighted page at a time, and the settings must be reentered for each page. This can be useful when a font is used that does not allow publication that can be captured by an end user. Another use is when you need to adjust text in some way that is difficult or impossible in the editor, such as upside-down or angled. agb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.43.136.16 (talk) 17:15, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Considering recent edit of pronunciation reference

In my opinion, the text That is, as 'Libra' should not be present in the reference of pronunciation. First of all, reference is a place for source link, not for additional comment. Secondly, the written pronunciation 'Libra' does not appear in the source. It is WP:OR and probably wrong, as it doesn't perfectly match IPA spelling and can be spoken incorrectly, for example as laibra. For all those reasons I firmly believe it should be reverted. — K4rolB (talk) 10:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I will add, "libra" is not an English word, but it is a loan word and the primary meaning is "a southern zodiacal constellation between Virgo and Scorpio represented by a pair of scales" and a lesser-known meaning is as a Roman unit of weight. The actual reference, https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#LibreOffice, makes no use of the word.

Was this an attempt at pronunciation? It needs to be referenced and it's not a short "a" sound, but a short "e" sound so the pronunciation is not libra and is simply wrong. The previously linked branding page at the project links to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHBve8v13VY and you can clearly hear the short e in the first sentence. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Walter, please don't argue about things you don't understand. You evidently don't know how English is pronounced. (If I'm wrong, I must be very wrong, and the same with the OED, so please provide a source.) Short 'a' and short 'e' do not occur at the ends of English words, with the exception of a few paralinguistic things like "meh", and then only when stressed. And if you listen to the video, the 'e' of "Libre" is clearly not pronounced like "meh". And even if it were, then the IPA would also be wrong, so why haven't you deleted the IPA?

(I suppose it's possible that you speak a dialect of English that was not considered by the compilers of the OED or of any other English dictionary that I'm aware of, but the speaker in the video does not, and in any case that would mean most of our pronunciations on WP, even those referenced to the OED, are wrong by your standards. But WP pronunciations make certain assumptions, spelled out at the IPA key, such as 'pork' rhyming with 'fork', that are not true for all people. These distinctions are ignored across the board. The OED likewise transcribes a certain range of English. There's little we can do about that.)

And "Libra" is not an English word? Is "London" not an English word? (It's also a loan.) That's beyond silly.

K4rolB, as for this being OR, no more so that the IPA is OR. The video doesn't spell that out either. Should we delete the IPA? And the two do match exactly. If you don't know how the IPA works, you can hover over the symbols to get respelling equivalents. I added the homophone "Libra" for readers such as yourself who may not be familiar with the IPA.

The one potentially valid point that been raised amid all this pile of nonsense is that "Libra" may be pronounced /ˈlaɪbrə/. I'm aware that that is the pronunciation of lower-case-el 'libra' (the Roman unit of weight), but that's a rather obscure word and in any case is distinguished by capitalization (like 'Polish' and 'polish'). I thought capital-el 'Libra', the constellation, was only pronounced /ˈliːbrə/. Am I wrong? If 'Libra' varies in pronunciation, then of course that would make it problematic. — kwami (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand? I linked to the word and your edit was so poor I had no clue what you were talking about.

I tried to ask a question, but you missed it. What are you trying to do with your original research? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:01, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I didn't answer your question because it was nonsensical. What should I even answer?

As for your MW link, it's self-contradictory and therefore essentially worthless. But the sound file does confirm my edit. Why would you use a source that supports my edit to justify reverting it? Please talk sense. Since your source does show that "Libre" and "Libra" (at least the constellation) are pronounced the same, I will restore the pronunciation with the clarification that it's the constellation Libra that's pronounced the same. — kwami (talk) 09:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

It supports nothing, which is why it was reverted. In short, the two are not pronounced the same. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:02, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

In short, the vowel is sounded as though it were a short e, as in "brethren" not a short "libra", so do stop adding that it is pronounced like it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

English does not have such a distinction, certainly not the dictionaries you're using. If you can't even read a dictionary, you shouldn't be arguing about things like this. — kwami (talk) 23:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)Canadian Oxford Dictionary

I think I see the problem: language variants. I speak Canadian English, which is close to American English in pronunciation, libra has more of an a sound, like "baa". It appears that in British English, the final vowel sound is shorter, and it that is closed to, but not identical to, the sound of "libre". In short, WP:LANGVAR, and it will confuse readers. Find a better sounding word. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:21, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

If Canadian English differs from US and UK and Australian and NZ English in this regard, then you should be able to demonstrate that with the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. If you could copy us on the pronunciation of 'Libra' and it shows that word does not end in a schwa, then you'll have proven your EnVar argument. I'm not holding my breath, though. — kwami (talk) 23:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

No, Canadian and American English have this distinction.

Walter, "Libra" does not end with a 'baa' vowel in Canadian or US English. Your MW link shows it to have a final schwa, just as in British English. That is, it makes my point and contradicts yours.

Did you not notice that both Merriam-Webster (US) and Macmillan (UK) transcribe it /ˈliːbrə/, with the same final /ə/? So, since you obviously don't know what you're talking about, would you stop butting in to things you don't understand?

Besides, if you were correct, the current IPA would also be wrong, so why aren't you deleting that? — kwami (talk) 23:08, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

No, Walter, the Canadian Oxford Dictionary (entry words and pronunciations available online) also has "Libra /ˈliːbrə/", exactly as in the US and UK. It also has "Libreville /ˈliːbrəˌvɪl/". So this does not appear to be a EngVar issue. — kwami (talk) 23:31, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Correct Libra does end in a BRAA sound while libre does end in a shorter e sound. The two sounds are not the same and sok stop stating that they are.

The Meriam Webster link shows American pronunciation of Libra, and it is different than the UK pronunciation of Libra. Both are different than pronunciation of libre. Again, there is a different sound, and again, what variant of English are you speaking?

Finally, please leave it without your changes per WP:STATUSQUO until we reach agreement. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:39, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Since you know best, and the OED, Merriam-Webster, Macmillan and Canadian Oxford are all wrong, we need to correct the rest of the lead. Currently, we give the IPA for 'Libra', not 'Libre'. I have therefore tagged it 'cn' so you have a chance to rectify it before deleting it. — kwami (talk) 23:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

We should fix the IPA then, because it's not LIBRA. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

How do you propose to fix it? — kwami (talk) 23:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

The way you tagged the reference is wrong, because the pronunciation in the audio file is correct, but your conversion to an English word is where the problem lies. The pronunciation is clear, and the recorded pronunciation is not the same as the vowel sound in Libra in either American or British English. Are you familiar with phonemic awareness? I don't think you can distinguish between the sounds. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for interjecting in the middle of all this fun, but are we certain that the [laɪbrə] pronunciation is confined to the unit of weight? That's not the impression I get from OED's entry. – Uanfala (talk) 00:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Any chance you could answer the question of where you're from or at least what variation of English you speak?

While you're at, what qualifications do you have for creating either respell or IPA?

I was raised speaking another language and I have been told that I have a very good ear for phonemes and can imitate sounds in many languages so that native speakers cannot tell, so I believe my ear is quite good. I can hear a difference between the ending vowel sound in the American and British pronunciations I provided and I don't think you can. You have stated that they are the same. Can you really not hear the difference? Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:03, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

@Uanfala: what do you see at OED? Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:04, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

There's a single entry (not updated since 1902) that encompasses all meanings, and both pronunciations are given at the top. – Uanfala (talk) 00:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Not sure how to interpret the OED, as "Libran" has only the FLEECE vowel. The more recent Macmillan and the Canadian Oxford show only FLEECE for "Libra". Lexico, which is OED, has only the PRICE vowel for the unit of weight, and the FLEECE vowel as primary for the constellation. But that's a different point than Walter's. — kwami (talk) 00:11, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Walter, both of us understand phonemic awareness. But this is a phonemic transcription. "Libre" and "Libra" are phonemically identical. The video has the pronunciation of "Libra". If you disagree, tell me what the vowels of both words are using Wells' lexical set. BTW, I speak fairly standard US English.

The idea that as a L2 speaker you hear subphonemic differences and that therefore all English dictionaries are wrong is ridiculous. And are you even able to tell it's a difference between words, rather than just the accent of the speaker in the video? — kwami (talk) 00:07, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you're hearing something that is not present.

In other words, where is the IPA for Libreoffice? All we have is someone saying it and you have equated it to the IPA for Libra, and they do not match. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Walter, repeating the same allegation over and over without evidence, especially given that you can't read a dictionary and apparently don't understand the sound system of English, is not convincing. You're making the claim contrary to all evidence, so you need to justify it. — kwami (talk) 01:01, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

This thread at LibreOffice also contradicts you.

Although not authoritative, this and this are the same. All sources state that "Libre" and "Libra" are homophones, with the exception that some people may pronounce the 'i' of "Libra" as the PRICE vowel.

MW gives the same pronunciation for vers libre.[1] — kwami (talk) 01:06, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Again, Kwamikagami, do you have a reliable source that provides an IPA or respell of the pronunciation of LibreOffice? Chats where someone comments are clearly not reliable and the other two are no better. They do not match the pronunciation provided by LibreOffice itself. Of course the sources you present state they're homophones, but they're clearly not. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:21, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Random House also states that Libra, vers libre and Libreville are pronounced the same.

Do you have any evidence for your claim? And you still haven't told us what you think the 'e' vowel is, since what you have said is nonsensical. Choose on of Wells' words from his lexical set. Until you do that, your argument is gibberish.

Telling native speakers that they can't understand their own language is rather arrogant of you, especially given that you don't know the sound system of English. — kwami (talk) 01:27, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

For the record the MW IPA for vers libre https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vers%20libre is ver-ˈlēbrᵊ while the IPA for Libra https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libra is ˈlē-brə. You will notice that rᵊ is not the same as rə, which is what I've been saying all along. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:24, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

No, that's not what you've been saying. You've been saying that "Libra" is pronounced "lee-BRAH", which you have zero evidence for. MW is trying to show the French pronunciation, but you have already rejected foreign pronunciations, so according to you that's irrelevant. The OED for example has "vɛr libr" and tags it as a non-English pronunciation. Random House just has "ˈlibrə".

And please learn how to read a dictionary before arguing about what a dictionary says. Otherwise you're just screaming "I'm an idiot!". — kwami (talk) 01:29, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

As for whether we have an IPA transcription, the only authority here is LibreOffice itself, and they released a sound file. The sound file shows it to be /ˈliːbrə/. The fact that you, as an L2 speaker, can't hear it is not pertinent. Regardless, saying that a pronunciation is correct when given in IPA but incorrect when given in respelling is silly. — kwami (talk) 01:39, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

No, you hear it as that. Supply a source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for confusing you. I was adding unnecessary emphasis to make it clear that your ears are not tuned well.

IPA is clear. Superscript is used in a specific way Help:IPA/English. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:37, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

You don't understand the footnote at the key that you linked to. (I don't remember if I wrote that footnote, but I probably wrote half of that IPA key.) Please, learn what you're talking about before making pronouncements. Otherwise you're merely advertising your ignorance. — kwami (talk) 01:44, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, just to clear the air. I have lived in Canada all my life. I am a native speaker of English. I'm not telling you that you do not understand your language, you cannot hear the phonetic variations in various words in English. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

The Canadian Oxford Dictionary contradicts you. I suspect that you don't know your language as well as you think you do. Please answer the question you've been asked multiple times now -- WHAT IS THE VOWEL YOU CLAIM APPEARS AT THE END OF 'LIBRE'? — kwami (talk) 01:47, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

The COD has vers libre /ver ˈliːbrə/, 'Libreville' /ˈliːbrəˌvɪl/, and 'Libra' /ˈliːbrə/. Do you have any evidence, apart from your superior ear, that the national dictionary of your country is wrong? — kwami (talk) 01:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Please answer the question you've been asked multiple times. What is your location?

I do not engage in WP:OR so I Ill not provide any vowel that appears at the end of libre. I suggest that you stop engaging in OR as well. I also suggest that you learn how to indent replies correctly. I also suggest that you stop typing in all caps. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:52, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I have already answered the first question. I am indenting replies correctly, but you insist on scrambling them. You are engaging in OR, by supposing that your understanding is greater than our sources (e.g. claiming that 'Libra' ends in the BRA vowel, when all dictionaries show that it does not). I will use all caps when you repeatedly ignore a simple request. And I suggest that if you refuse to justify your claims (I suspect because you can't), then you stop disrupting WP. For example, which other word in English is pronounced the same at the end as "Libre"? If you can't answer that, you have no business here. — kwami (talk) 01:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

No, you're not following MOS:INDENTGAP or WP:THREAD.

You have no sources that offer in IPA for LibreOffice. If you want to use one for another word, feel free to, but 1) it's WP:OR, isn't it? 2) do not use an English word, use the IPA. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:05, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

So, I (1) must not use IPA and (2) must use IPA. As for the OR question, no, it's not. WP has long accepted spoken evidence for how to pronounce a word or name. Conversion to IPA is not considered OR, any more than converting from AHD transcription to IPA is considered OR. If you wish to claim that the final vowel is not /ə/, then you need to say what you think it is. Then we can have a discussion as to who is correct. But until you make that effort, no productive discussion is possible. As for using 'sound-alike' words, that has also been accepted practice on WP for years, probably since its beginning. It helps with readers such as yourself you do not understand IPA, and many WP editors value it for that reason. — kwami (talk) 02:09, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Not what I wrote. If you supply your own IPA for LibreOffice, it would be OR, correct? It would be best to use official IPA not extrapolated or IPA you assume. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:12, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

If the IPA were ex nihilo, then yes, you'd be correct. But as I said, we've long accepted recorded pronunciations as evidence. There is of course always the possibility of misinterpreting a source, recorded no less than written. But if you're going to argue that a source has been misinterpreted, you need to say how. Then we can discuss it, and use WP's various forms of dispute resolution if we cannot agree. But you have refused to take that first step: If the libre of LibreOffice is not pronounced /ˈliːbrə/, the way Libreville, vers libre and Libra are (according to the national dictionary of your country, one I know that Canadians are proud of), then how is it pronounced? (Your argument so far is that all English dictionaries are wrong as to how 'Libra' is pronounced, and that 'Libre' has a pronunciation that, if I understand it correctly, standard descriptions of English phonology state does not exist in English.) — kwami (talk) 02:21, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

No, you've refused to provide your credentials and your providence.

You've shown no proof that you actually know how to edit (yes, you're semi-retired and you have a long edit history, but you have no clue how to follow talk page formatting, and blame me for ineptitude, so while I WP:AGF, you've shown no ability).

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You heard a phoneme in an audio file where the pronunciation was made. It's not in the reference, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHBve8v13VY is linked to from the reference, although https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIBjmHSHs-w is a bit more clear and from the same speaker. You then made the assumption of the phonemes and determined that it sounded like another word. You claim that this is standard practice on Wikipedia. I tried, but failed to state that the words are not pronounced the same way. I offered two sound files of the word you proposed and the final vowel sound is somewhat different between them and I claim that neither matches what I hear in the audio file. You cannot supply an official IPA for this word, but you have some for other words with similar spelling. I am not playing your game of suggesting a pronunciation, but I have suggested that you could use an IPA.

You blatantly lie when you claim that I am stating that dictionaries dictionaries are wrong as to how "Libra" is pronounced. I have not made that claim anywhere, I have simply stated that it's not the way "Libre" is pronounced. You are easily confused ()or are playing games) and you refuse to discuss things on terms other than your own.

Further, you tagged a reference as requiring a citation to make a WP:POINT, which is clear WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. We don't need an English word next to the IPA. When you address my questions, I'll re-engage. I plan to remove the {{citation needed}} by the weekend. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:29, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello, apologies for entering the discussion. I'm the one who transcribed the phonemic IPA and added the reference link. You must keep in mind with these phonemic IPA transcriptions for English that, if you turn your mind to the details, they are in fact highly abstract. Please scroll down the page Help:IPA/English and have a look at how many phonemes are e.g. technically two phonemes that are simply not distinguished in the notation adopted at Wikipedia. Considering also the possible dialectal realizations, in the craziness that is English, if you adopt the angle of scrutinizing one speaker's pronunciation, you must recognize that it can only be useful if a pronunciation of "Libra" is also supplied from his exact variety of English, or even from his own idiolect. In light of dictionaries specifying the pronunciation of libre in a uniform way with /ə/, I pondered also the possibility that the speaker himself was under the impression that he was enunciating /ˈliːbrə/, if he had consulted any dictionaries or received instruction from those who did. In principle, I think that the Wikipedia phonemic notation just doesn't let one transcribe it with any more precision, and it is conscious of its limitations; the /ə/ also certainly seems good enough for the real dictionaries. If one native speaker believes that libre and Libra sound slightly different within one system of English pronunciation, it has to be demonstrated that that speaker cannot be trusted, because phonemic notations of English are most commonly not all-encompassing even with regard to phonemes. I added, therefore, the IPA while believing that it was as good as it could be, next to the spelling "Libre", having the "e", to say nothing of the video that is accessible through the link (that most will never click, I think). Whether the reference was well-done or the act of transcribing the IPA myself is allowed is another question, though. I am a very minor editor. Draco argenteus (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I realized as I lay in bed last night that I would look at the article again to see what I was missing and it was Draco argenteus' IPA that has been in place since 2019-12-15T18:18:38. In my haste, I had not noticed that, I simply saw the pronunciation. While I disagree that "libre" and "Libra" are pronounced the same way, I accept the volume of proof that Kwamikagami has supplied that linguists use IPA to show they are the same. I have self-reverted and apologize for missing that key fact and for pressing so hard on this issue. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:49, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Space between "libre" and "office"

"libre" and "office" are two word. separate them by space. Huzaifa abedeen (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Adding a table for Operating System support

Collabora Office for on Chromebooks https://www.collaboraoffice.com/press-releases/collabora-office-ships-for-chromebooks/. The app, like Collabora's iOS and Android apps depends on the LibreOffice core. I don't know the politics; I believe many readers who would read this page would like to know the variety of OS that files created by LibreOffice can be edited on. I appended a table under the text at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#Operating_systems to include these OS, the table is intended to make it clearer too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12think (talk • contribs) 01:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think they do. They're here to read about the product, not see a table of various derivatives and which CPUs they work with. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:43, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Weekly Downloads

First question: Does anyone agree that the weekly downloads graph in the Users and deployments section is crying out for an explanation of the enormous spike in 2019? Second question: Can anyone explain why that spike occurred?115.69.35.19 (talk) 00:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)