Wikipedia:Featured article review/Emmy Noether/archive1

Emmy Noether

Featured article candidates/Emmy Noether

Featured article review/Emmy Noether/archive1

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Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because there are numerous citation concerns, including an orange banner at the top of the "Contributions to mathematics and physics" section and an uncited "List of doctoral students" section. There's also a lot of great prose describing math concepts, but much of this does not describe how Noether contributed to these concepts and I don't think much of it is necessary for the reader to understand how Noether contributed to the ideas. I think this would need a math specialist to help improve the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a source for the entire doctoral students section. Also, far be it from me to ignite another "anti-intellectualism" GAR/FAR firestorm, but the line "I don't think much of it is necessary for the reader to understand" rubs me the wrong way. Yes, to understand Noether's accomplishments it is necessary to understand the mathematics and physics concepts she worked with. That said, I agree that the contributions section could be better sourced; we used to allow unsourced background material that we would expect any student of the subject to have some familiarity with, but those days are gone. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To expand upon my comment about what the reader needs to understand: after reading the article when making the nomination, I found that some sections did a great job explaining the math, but struggled to connect it to Noether. For example, in the "Background on abstract algebra" section, Noether is not mentioned until paragraph 4. I would expect Noether's contributions to be more prominent and mentioned first, then the mathematical principles explained by connecting it to Noether's contributions. I think the "First epoch (1908–1919): Physics", all the second epoch, and all the third epoch sections do this well; I think the other sections need to feature Noether more prominently, which might involve removing some information, and will probably involve moving around some information. Z1720 (talk) 22:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We get an issue with accessibility or focus whichever way you slice it: either there's maths explanations with nothing to do with Noether, or the descriptions are only accessible to those familiar with elementary algebra. If you don't understand what a group is, it's impossible to understand Noether's contributions to maths. I don't think you can reverse the order of it.

The subject matter is necessarily extremely technical. What might not be obvious to layreaders is that (e.g.) the group representations paragraph is child's play compared to the statement of Noether's problem. This is the dumbing down as far as possible without distorting the facts. I can wax lyrical about group representations but Galois theory makes my head hurt. By focusing on big picture ("it's all about symmetries", "like prime numbers") and toy examples (the discriminant, polynomial splitting fields), but also giving the full statements of what Noether studied, I think the article does quite well. I feel it's best left as is unless someone is jumping to make it a big project of theirs.

My comments at Talk:Emmy Noether#WP:URFA/2020 were to indicate that I do not think there are major citation issues—it's more a style issue, as convention has changed since 2008. I do feel this article would benefit from a mathematician giving it a full copyedit, with an algebra textbook to hand for some inline citations. — Bilorv (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bilorv said more or less what I was going to. The ordering in the "Background on abstract algebra" passage makes sense because, well, it's background. It has to cover concepts that were introduced a half-century before Noether was even born. That's just how math works: it's a cumulative subject, and we can't always take a thin slice out of it and hope for a meaningful result.

Much of the uncited material can probably be found in any textbook on the area (e.g., the definition of a ring or a group representation is standard stuff). I did what I could with the books that I had near my desk, but I am too tired to do more and need a very very long break. XOR'easter (talk) 00:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe the "List of doctoral students" section is necessary in the first place. "All" (i.e. those with wikilinks) the notable students are in the infobox and a table list of their dissertations and defenses seem somewhat superfluous. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to remove the section. Feel free to revert or add it back if you disagree. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also realised there were two separate "Recognition" sections, which I merged together. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:24, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with this removal. Everything in the infobox should be a summary of main-article text. The infobox should not supplant the article. See MOS:INFOBOX: When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. If you include the list of doctoral students only in the infobox, then readers looking for a non-superficial summary will not find that information. Or, to put it another way, if it is so important to the article that it needs to be summarized in the infobox, so that even low-attention-span readers skimming the infobox find it, then it is also so important to the article that it should be covered properly in the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know the infobox shouldn't supplant the article. My reasoning was that the infobox could have the names of all her notable doctoral students while the article went into more detail (which it does, in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section; I recognise it's in need of some more sentences about her doctoral students specifically). I still don't believe a list of their dissertations and defense dates is of benefit to the average reader, but I'll leave it. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not wedded to the specific table format. A more prose-like format such as a bulleted list might be better. The titles of the dissertations are less important than their overall topics and what happened afterward to each student. And the placement of the list of students in the article would make more sense in the section you mention than as an appendix at the end. But if one is looking for a complete list of her students (or, what the infobox lists, her bluelinked students) one won't find anything resembling that in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section in its current state. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. After the citation issues are resolved, perhaps the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section can be expanded to include more information about her doctoral students, but I don't think it should make or break the article's Featured status. Sgubaldo (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with David Eppstein that the doctoral students should be mentioned in the body. An exhaustive list makes sense to me, with dissertation topic (e.g. p-adic numbers) and anything the student was later known for. It would also make sense to incorporate them into the chronological account of her life, but the issue might be that she had so many notable students that it could overwhelm the rest of the section's focus. — Bilorv (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree with ensuring they are mentioned in the body. My reasoning was that dissertation titles and defense dates are not that important. Sgubaldo (talk) 13:53, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the dates are worth keeping. The titles, if we have topics instead, can go. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For now, I've added an initial mention of the two Erlangen students in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section. They don't seem too notable though and could probably be moved up to the "Teaching period" one instead. Unfortunately, I don't think I'd be of much help with the citation issues. Sgubaldo (talk) 01:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Work seems to have slowed down, but several sourcing problems remain. Are editors still working on this? Z1720 (talk) 14:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I won't have the time to properly sit down and crack on with this until towards the end of March. After that, I'm happy to continue working on the doctoral students part. As I said above, the citation issues in the "Contributions to mathematics and physics" section may require someone with more expertise than me in the area. Besides, beyond those two issues, I think the article is worthy of FA status, and I made some structural changes that made the article (in my view) neater. Sgubaldo (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Improvements have definately been made (thanks everyone!) but I still have citation concerns, as there are some paragraphs which do not have any inline citations. Would it be helpful if I tagged the areas that I felt needed citations for others to address? Z1720 (talk) 16:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That would be helpful. Sgubaldo (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note a seems to use inline references, which should be converted to inline citations (footnotes). Z1720 (talk) 17:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Working my way through as many of those as I can. Will update when I stall out. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, now we're forbidden even footnotes from having parenthetical citations within them? So we need a separate footnote inside the footnote to be the reference? No. Just no. This blind fanaticism serves no encyclopedic purpose. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I misindented my comment. I've been working through the cn tags. Haven't looked into the note. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My reply was aimed more at Z1720 than you. Going through cn tags and finding citations for them is a very useful thing to be doing. Putting nested footnotes into footnotes because of an aversion to mixing footnote text with footnote citations, less useful. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firefangledfeathers? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The inline reference issue in Note a has been fixed. Two cn tags remain, and the section on her second epoch might need some citations too. The rest of the article seems good. Beyond that, I had the idea of making her doctoral students part of the prose rather than an explicit table at the bottom of the article, but that shouldn't make or break FA-status. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Sgubaldo. Haven't given up on the last few cns. Just been busy. I'll either fix them soon or throw in the towel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found something in Page 99 of Emmy Noether: The Mother of Modern Algebra by Margaret B. W. Tent for the phrase 'Her family paid for her room and board and supported her academic work' as mentioned on the talk page, but i'm a little skeptical of using it as a source since it's mostly aimed at teenagers and the author takes some literary creativity and makes up conversations between historical figures. No luck on the other cn tag yet. Sgubaldo (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the "Her family paid" line. XOR'easter (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't been paying attention to the bigger picture, but I resolved what I think was the last remaining cleanup tag a couple days ago. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've prosified the doctoral students and added some references in certain places. If a reviewer could go through and check again what else they feel needs a citation, that would help. Other than that, I think this should be done. Sgubaldo (talk) 13:28, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to FARC My concerns about this article are still present: there is off-topic information that does not relate to Noether's life and lots of uncited information. Z1720 (talk) 16:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you think that is true then why have you done nothing to make your concerns more specific, for instance by responding last May when the comments immediately above this talked about resolving all remaining cleanup tags? We cannot clean up what we cannot see, and we cannot read your mind if you will not tell it to us. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, this baffles me. Nothing in the article as it stands is "off-topic" to my eye. Rather, it's all either straight biography or attempts to explain the mathematical topics on which Noether worked. In other words, cutting anything would risk having an article that fails to work as a self-contained unit. XOR'easter (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, a lot of the information in "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" can be summarized better: it is a lot of detail that would probably be better explained in the articles of those concepts. "Algebraic invariant theory", "Galois theory", also have a lot of text explaining the mathematical concept when this could be better explained in the concept's article. This article is over 9,000 words, which WP:TOOBIG recommends be split and reduced: I think there are opportunities in this article to move information to other places. This article doesn't need to be a self-contained unit, because it is part of a wider Wikipedia project and users can go to other articles to get more detailed information. Z1720 (talk) 22:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, to put it bluntly, you want to gut the intellectual contributions from a biography of someone known for her intellectual contributions, in favor of a greater emphasis on routine biographical information? Perhaps you can explain how this fits with your understanding of WP:FACR #1b, in which we are asked to ensure that the article "neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context"? The sections you object to are exactly placing the subject in context. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An article about Emmy Noether needs to explain why a whole host of major concepts are called Noether's or Noetherian. That's far more important than the rules of thumb in WP:TOOBIG, which are made up anyway. XOR'easter (talk) 00:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, the article does not need as much information as it currently has on explaining the mathematical concepts. It would be better to summarise the theories in fewer words and give more detail of their explanation in the theory's article. The long explanations of these theories are against WP:FA? #4, and I do not see how these very long explanations of concepts are major facts of Noether's work. Instead, they are going into too much detail of the background before Noether's contributions or giving too much detail in their explanation. I look forward to new editors reviewing the article and giving their thoughts so that a consensus can form. Z1720 (talk) 01:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even this biography of Noether aimed at children aged 6-8 claims to include "explanations of complex mathematical concepts". Are you suggesting that Wikipedia should fall below even the mathematical sophistication of a children's book? Because that's what I am getting from your comments here. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The explanations currently in the article are already very short compared to what an article devoted to a Noetherian math topic would be. For example, our page on Noether's theorem is, by itself, over half the length of the entire Emmy Noether page, and much longer than the corresponding subsection here, Emmy Noether#Physics, which is all of three paragraphs. We're not teaching a course in ring theory or advanced classical mechanics here; we're doing pretty much the bare minimum to explain what Noether herself did and why it matters.
I'd be amenable to judicious trimming, but that would require a sentence-by-sentence reading to decide what phrases might be diversions or superfluous details, not a vaguewave at the FA criteria. XOR'easter (talk) 18:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FARC section

Moving to get more input regarding this article's status WRT the FA criteria. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delist My thoughts in the FARC remain unchanged, and the issues I brought up haven't been resolved yet. If there are any changes, please ping me and I can take another look. Z1720 (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Z1720's uninformed but relentless desire to remove all context and background for why Noether is considered so significant, and their failure to provide substantive comments in response to requests for detailed specifics, is noted but can be discounted. The article is well written, well sourced, and significantly improved since the FA began. It covers Noether's life and work in appropriate detail.
—David Eppstein (talk) 01:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David Eppstein. This does not mean I must support the argument of delisting a status. As a not-so-thoroughly-expert-at-FA-reviewer and not a fan of biographical articles, I found they remain unsourced in the following:

These courses often preceded major publications on the same subjects.[citation needed]
Some other facts remained unsourced in the section "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)": Lasker–Noether theorem and her other works in further explanation.
"An algebra consists of a choice..."
First epoch and second epoch

Overall, the article looks good, and its status can be preserved. But this question for me: do all of these need citations for, keeping in mind, supporting the facts? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not these need citations (I haven't taken the time to formulate an opinion) that is already more helpful than Z1720's claim of "lots of uncited information" but refusal to respond to requests like "If a reviewer could go through and check again what else they feel needs a citation" from last May. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how can I comprehend your words here: it is better to give a list of which parts that is unsourced, unlike the user who says to fix up everything without giving more details of the problem? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 04:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was what I meant, yes. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David Eppstein So, I think I shall leave this to you. Hope you don't mind. I wish I can help but biographical articles are not my thing. I'll see if I can find some spots. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 11:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David Eppstein and Dedhert.Jr: I have added cn tags where I think citations are needed. There are some sentences where the citation is in the middle, instead of at the end of the sentence: I did not check to see if these citations verify the information after the citation. Z1720 (talk) 12:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720 If you found things that is not in the criteria, please make a list of bullets. Users may understand and start to fix up, just like how normally users reviews GAN. You don't mind, eh? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 12:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a list of my concerns:

There are uncited statements, which I have noted with citation needed tags.
There is a lot of prose that describes the background information of mathematical concepts which is not directly related to Noether. While some background information is necessary, I think the "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" goes into too much detail on mathematical concepts that are better explained on the concept's own article page.
The "First epoch (1908–1919)", "Second epoch (1920–1926)" and "Third epoch (1927–1935)" sections spend a lot of time explaining the mathematical concepts, but do not explain Noether's contribution or how she discovered them. These sections need to more closely link Noether to the work.
Per WP:ONEDOWN, many of the math concepts explained in this article are too technical for the average, interested reader to understand. This article is a biography of this person and a reader should know how her discoveries affected mathematics. The large amount of mathematical information and high-concept language makes this difficult, and I think this information would be better on the mathematic concepts pages, rather than here.
The following sources are listed in "Sources" but are not used in the article: Blue, Meredith (2001), Huff, Kendra (2011), Kimberling, Clark (March 1982), Schmadel, Lutz D. (2003), Lemmermeyer, Franz; Roquette, Peter, eds. (2006), Noether, Emmy; Brewer, James W; Smith, Martha K (1981), Schmadel, Lutz D. (2003).

Hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep conditional on the explicit {{citation needed}} tags being resolved. I do not see the case for shuffling actual mathematical content in a mathematician's biography off to other articles. Nor do I see a real conflict with the WP:ONEDOWN rule of thumb. The most technical parts of the article are about mathematics one sees in graduate school, and they're pitched to an upper-level undergraduate audience. XOR'easter (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of the mathematical fields alongside its technical, apparently algebra is somewhat intended to be technical in this case, no matter how one would like to try to gloss it into the least technical as possible. I think other fields such as mathematical analysis or calculus, or topology, are similar cases. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On hold, awaiting content's improvements before picking either delist or keep. I prefer not to delist the status because some users would like to keep it, nor to keep it because the content is still debatable and especially in shambles quality of unsourced facts. Some responses from me to Z1720:
- Replying "There is a lot of prose that describes the background information of mathematical concepts which is not directly related to Noether": I cannot find anything that exactly means here. If I look at it again, it is actually the opposite. Can you tell us more specifically?
- Replying "Three epochs": Ditto, but waiting for the sources.
- Replying WP:ONEDOWN: Already explained in XOR'easter's reasons to keep.
Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand the "more closely link Noether to the work" comment at all. The "epochs" sections are full of her contributions. In 1918, Noether published ... Noether provided the resolution of this paradox ... Noether's theorem has become a fundamental tool ... In this epoch, Noether became famous for ... In 1923–1924, Noether applied her ideal theory to ... And so forth. XOR'easter (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then I guess this leaves to the sourcing problems, after which I might be vote for the status. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 04:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]