Talk:Rachel Corrie

Policies

(Please do not archive. New editors are asked to read this section carefully before editing.)

Because this is a contentious article, all edits should conform strictly not only to WP:NPOV, but also to the policies and guidelines regarding sources: WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:RS. Jointly these say:

• Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, analyses, or ideas.
• The above may be published in Wikipedia only if already published by a reliable source.
• A "source" refers to the publication Wikipedia obtained the material from (e.g. The New York Times). It does not refer to the original source of the material (i.e. wherever The New York Times obtained the information from).
• A "reliable source" in the context of Rachel Corrie means:
  • articles in mainstream newspapers, books that are not self-published, scholarly papers, official reports, trial transcripts, congressional reports or transcripts, and similar;
  • no personal websites, blogs, or other self-published material unless the website or blog was Corrie's own, in which case it may be used with caution, so long as the material is notable, is not unduly self-aggrandizing, and is not contradicted by reliable third-party sources;
  • no highly biased political websites unless there is clearly some editorial oversight or fact-checking process.

Archives

• Talk:Rachel Corrie/Archive 1
• Talk:Rachel Corrie/Archive 2
• Talk:Rachel Corrie/Archive 3

See Also

Is *James Miller (filmmaker) relevent? Not related to Corrie or ISM or Caterpiller. Do all non-residents killed by the IDF get included under See Also?

Miller is as relevant as Hurndall, all foreign civilians attacked by the IDF within a space of three months. Arniep 20:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me - I added some more foreign citizens [Americans in this case] who were killed in Gaza in 2003.

PA Chairman Yasser Arafat described their killing as: "The Palestinian leadership condemns in the harshest terms of condemnation the criminal bombing"

Colin Powell said: "The innocent Americans who died -- John Branchizio, Mark Parson and John Linde, Jr. -- were on a mission of peace as part of our Embassy team going to interview Palestinians for Fulbright scholarships to study or teach in the United States.

They were helping the Palestinian people. They were murdered by terrorists, the same terrorists who have killed so many others and who are killing the dreams of the Palestinian people."

Please don't add red links to the see-also section. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed those additions as those people were not involved in deaths caused by the idf. Arniep 00:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Arnie, you can't determine that the see-also section is only for people who have died in incidents involving the IDF. I don't know what the criteria should be, but there's no need for it to be as narrow or POV as that. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason to include deaths caused by Palestinian terrorists, the controversy over Corrie is primarily related to the activities of the idf and the ism. Arniep 01:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

But see-also can include anything we want so long as there's some relevance. It doesn't have to be relevant from only one POV. Anyway, it's a moot point at the moment, because the names he added were red-linked, and we can't have see-alsos where there's nothing to see. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:14, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll see about having pages added for them - They were the first non-IDF deaths of Americans since the beginning of the Intifada - so their deaths are notable - their deaths are already referenced on the [1] page. They weren't members of the ISM, but either was James Miller, so ISM membership doesn't seem to be relevent to addition. I suppose that readers of an encyclopedia would be interested in the deaths of only foreigners killed by the IDF and other deaths are irrelevent, but if you go down that road of specificity, eventually you would have to include only links about female Americans killed by the IDF on March 16th by heavy machinery. And that seems unproductive.

I agree that there can't be specificity in one POV direction only. Having see-alsos of foreigners killed in Gaza seems fair enough to me, though they must be blue links or there's no point. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The see also section should be connected to foreigners whose deaths were caused by the idf, it is not relevant to include deaths caused by others as it is now suspected that there was a deliberate policy to intimidate journalists or peace campaigners entering Israel or the Palestinian territories so deaths caused by Palestinian terrorists are not relevant to that. Arniep 11:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

That's your personal view, Arnie, which isn't relevant to what's included in the see-also section. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Fine, is there a policy or guideline on what should go in the see also section? Arniep 00:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

No policy; guideline at Wikipedia:Guide to layout. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Online Video

In a now-archived talk section there was discussion about adding a link to video. I have posted several videos at ourmedia.org including interviews with Rachel, IDF footage of the incident, and sections from two documentaries. Should/can any/all of these videos be linked:

• Interview - http://www.ourmedia.org/node/181045
• "The Killing Zone" - http://www.ourmedia.org/node/164499
• IDF Footage - http://www.ourmedia.org/node/158250
• Related footage from "Rachel: An American Conscience" - http://www.ourmedia.org/node/158271

I have permission for all of these videos. I'll check back to make sure you don't need more information. Mgaines

Unaddressed Questions

The article fails to address the question of a connection between Rachel Corrie and Osama bin Laden.

The readers have a right to know if Rachel Corrie was a member of al-Qaeda.

The public should be informed if Rachel Corrie was directing terrorist resources to be used against innocent women and children.

Could it be that Rachel Corrie was actively planning another September 11 style attack against the United States of America?

The article should look into whether or not Rachel Corrie was the goto person for rogue states to obtain weapons of mass destruction.

Valid questions all.

69.39.172.72 15:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've heard she was the head of al-qaeda. - Xed 16:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is what I found: http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110004168 Zeq 17:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The origin of that information is the Jerusalem Post which is not exactly a neutral source is it. Arniep 19:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The JPost is a reliable source for Wikipedia. If we only used neutral sources, we'd have arguably none to use. :-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I think you'll find it violates the question on whether sources have an obvious bias or extremist political views on WP:RS. Arniep 19:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• • • • • I think the JPost is fine. WP:RS reads in relevant part: " a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, although editors should avoid using political groups with widely acknowledged extremist views, like Stormfront.org or the Socialist Workers Party." I don't see any way to strike the JPost for bias and leave in The National Review, Common Dreams News Center, Mother Jones, The Spectator, The Observer, The Guardian or The Nation, just to name several sources currently on the page.
        • That said, the OpinionJournal and JPost articles don't say that Corrie was affiliated with Bin Laden - they say that the IDF states that it was looking for smuggling tunnels, not wrecking houses. That POV is already well represented in the article. TheronJ 21:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I think all of those sources are obviously more biased than JPost, I think maybe at the most JPost is as bias as the BBC, it is clearly an acceptable source.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking for smuggling tunnels involves wrecking houses. Arniep 21:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

This is one of the most inconsequential articles with the most space on all of the Wiki. It deserves about two paragraphs at the most, and probably should be deleted altogether. Why does it contain 2 long self serving "eye witness" accounts of the accident? Are we now going to list every death in the world with a full listing of possible causes. I don't want to be accused of vandalism, but I am going to slightly reduce the lenght of this piece.Incorrect 02:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

To try and make this a npov edit, I've substantially reduced both the IDF and the ISM statements on the accident - they are all long, tedious and of no interest to anyone, those who really care can find much more info on google.Incorrect 03:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If someone wants to reverse my edits, ok, but do we really need to know more than the circumstances of her death are disputed?Incorrect 03:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I have a great idea: let's include a copy of the autopsy report; also RC's 4th grade report card; and can we get a picture of her carved initials in her desk from the 6th grade; why don't we include a family tree; and what about a listing of her boyfriends, their family trees, and their political persuasions; let's make this the biggest article in all of wp!Incorrect 05:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

More RC information this article MUST contain to be valid: her brand of lipstick, her favorate color, where she went on her prom - without the foregoing, this article just won't be complete.Incorrect 06:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Enough, Incorrect, if you don't like the article, don't edit it. Ckessler 06:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

question

Hi Slim,

I am trying to understand why you reverted this.[2] Some facts that are not disputed are presented as the "IDF view".

Surly the proximity to the border and existense of smuggling tunnels is not just IDF view .

Please help me understand. Thanks. Zeq 06:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The intro already mentions the tunnels and Egypt. You wanted to mention them twice. You also typed the word "used" twice in a row, and the word weapons/weapon. It's also important to write that the IDF "says" there were tunnels, not state it as a fact. The current intro makes that distinction. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The intro is divided in two parts:

• First part is stated as facts
• Second part is presented as ISM view Vs. IDF view.

The folowing facts are not disputed and as such should be moved from the IDF view to the "facts" part in the 1st sentence:

• the proximity of te residential area to the border
• existense of smuggling tunnels under the border [3], [4]

I am sure there is a better way to express this than my edit but the current intro is not NPOV by giving more wight to the issue of the residential area (fact) while only NPOVing it with an "IDF designated". We need a more NPOV intro to such loaded subject. Zeq 08:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to mess around with the intro because achieving balance took a long time. First para is how she died, and that the bulldozer was in what one side called a residential area and the other side called a security zone. Second paragraph explains the death from the ISM POV and then the IDF POV. I'd say it's pretty neutral and to the point. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand your reluctence. However, we can try and add these two undisputed points to the first paragraph.

It is not that we are not going to have edit conflicts with or without this change.

I disgree that it is neutral at this point since "residental area" is a strong chatrization and "idf dsignated as security zone" is a bit "weaslwording" ("designated") and also does not tell the whole story. You know I am a big fan of NPOV:-) Zeq 11:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ho hum... I thought I'd seen it all until I saw that the phrase 'residential area', when it applies to Palestinians, is regarded as a "strong characterization". What should it be called? An animal farm? A shit hole? Is that NPOV enough? By the way, the IDF 'POV' does not dispute that it was a residential area. Ramallite ^(talk) 13:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Rammalite. The fact that is is a residential area is not disputed.

also this is not disputed either:

• the proximity of te residential area to the border
• existense of smuggling tunnels under the border

On the personal level, why is this such a sensitive issue ? Clearly like all the recent history of the middle east (and especialy the palestinian people) innocent people suffer when terrorists used the area were innocent people live to launch attcks (or smuggle weapon) and the IDf respond with too much force. Nothing new here. Zeq 13:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Having the smuggling tunnels claim at the top is not NPOV as it suggests that Corrie was complicit in weapons smuggling when there is no evidence of that. Arniep 16:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No. It does not suggets that. Howver, no placing it there is POV since we ignore a known fact that was important to understand ther area conditions at the time.Zeq 16:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how your edit adds to our understanding of what happened: "The IDF conducted acitivity to discover smuggling tunnels used used by Hamas and other groups for smuggling weapons weapon and explosives from Sinai into Gaza." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

OK. I'll try to explain. The current text says this was a residential area. What was the army doing there ? why the army designated it a "security zone" ?. Does the actual mention of the fact that the army designated it a security zone helps in the understanding of what the army was doing there ? no it does not.

Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty that split rafah in two. Years later that caused the border that crossed Rafah town in the middle to become a hot bad for smuggling and anti smuggling activity. We need to provide the facts to the reader.

Facts that are not disputed should not be presented as "IDF claim".

The issue that is disputed is how she died. All the rest should be presented as fact and not as "IDF designated" or "IDF claim".

Is it more clear (the problem description) ?

Can you propose a solution ? I am sure your english writing is much better than mine. Tnx. Zeq 17:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

You are aware that the word 'designated' in English is definitive, and not wishy washy like the word 'claimed', right? It's like saying the IDF 'clamped a curfew', 'designated an area', 'fired a missile', etc Ramallite ^(talk) 17:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The issue is not how defitive is the word but that fact that it describing it as something the army decided. In this respect it is the same as a claim: something that comes from one side.

The issue here are the facts:

• The area was close to a int'l border
• There are in the area smuggling tunnels
• the army was operating in the area

all these are undisputed facts.

Zeq 18:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposal - NPOV

Rachel Corrie (April 10, 1979–March 16, 2003) was a member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who traveled as an activist to the Gaza Strip during the Al-Aqsa Intifada. She was killed when she tried to obstruct an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Caterpillar D9 bulldozer operating in the security zone seperating the Palestinian residential area of Rafah from the border with Eygpt. The IDF had designated the area near the border a security zone due to an operational need to uncover smuggling tunnels used by Hamas and other groups for smuggling weapons and explosives from Egypt into Gaza.

The circumstances of her death are disputed: ISM eyewitnesses say that the driver of the bulldozer deliberately ran over her twice while she was trying to prevent what they say might have been a house demolition. The IDF say the bulldozer driver did not see her; that the bulldozer was not engaged in a demolition; that Corrie was previously interfering with security operations designed to uncover the smuggling tunnels and that a guide, usually working to direct the D-9 movments in areas of limited visiability was unable to work in the area since snipres would open fire on any IDF person outside the protection of an armed vehicles. According to the IDF investigation the exact cause of death was falling debris pushed over by the bulldozer when the Buldozer driver could not have seen Corrie.

Zeq 18:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Or this one

Rachel Corrie (April 10, 1979–March 16, 2003) was a member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who traveled as an activist to the Gaza Strip during the Al-Aqsa Intifada. She was killed when she tried to obstruct an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Caterpillar D9 bulldozer operating in a Palestinian residential area of Rafah, an area the IDF had designated a security zone, and which contains a network of smuggling tunnels connecting it to Egypt.

The circumstances of Corrie's death are disputed. ISM eyewitnesses say that the driver of the bulldozer deliberately ran over her twice while she was trying to prevent what they say might have been a house demolition. The IDF say the bulldozer driver did not see her; that the bulldozer was not engaged in a demolition; that Corrie was interfering with security operations designed to uncover the tunnels used by Hamas and other groups for smuggling weapons from Egypt; and that the cause of death was falling debris pushed over by the bulldozer. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Zeq 18:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No Zeq. There is no evidence that Corrie had anything whatsoever to do with smuggling, and your continual attempts to include it in such a prominent place is a clear attempt by you to "colour" the impression given to readers of Rachel. It is well known that the Israel and pro Israel media presented a distorted impression of Rachel, portraying her as a collabarator with terrorists and that she attempted to prevent the army finding tunnels, when in fact there is no evidence she knew aything about tunnels or smuggling of weapons and much more evidence that her primary motivation was protecting Palestinians from indiscriminate destruction of their homes and lives. Arniep

Arnie, it is not "well known that the Israel and pro-Israel media presented a distorted impression." That is your POV. It needs to be kept away from this page. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

What evidence do you have to say that is not SlimVirgin? It is a fact that much of the Israeli and pro Israeli media portrayed her as a collabarator of terrorists and deliberately distorted the truth to try and imply that she was somehow complicit in the smuggling of weapons when there is no evidence she was. Arniep 10:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)