Talk:Sorbs

Pls provide academic proof of the relation between the Sorbs & Serbs.

There's no relation between the Sorbs and the Serbs just as same as no relation between Slovenia & Slovakia or Rusyn & Russia. All these are, of course , slavs, but they are different slavs: East slavs, West slavs, South slavs.

Pls provide the academic proof of the relation between the Sorbs & Serbs, if you believe otherwise.

Cat12zu 19:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

No one claims that there is a relation, just that sometimes they are called Lusatian Serbs. This is true; from The Columbia Encyclopedia: "They call themselves Srbi and hence are known also in English as Lusatian Sorbs or Serbs."

All else aside, why removing link to Project Rastko? It's still a nice site about Sorbs. Nikola 09:11, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

• Well, that's true so that's OK, cheers!
• Regarding the Project Rastko:

• Firstly, there's doubts, at least on my part, in the claims of Serbs-Sorbs relationships....but that is the mistake on my part as said in 1st point.
• But now, most of the english Rastko website are links and articles, especially the articles' paragraphs, are mere copies of several externals links to Lusatia-based site about the sorbs themselves, I feel that's too redundant (and Rastko website themselves maybe, may had violated the copyrights). There's no links or info about Serbs-Sorbs relationship in english. Most of the webpages are in serbs or germans. That will be appropriate to put in serbs, germans Wikipedia instead. Cat12zu 23:54, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

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"...They are distant relatives of Serbs..."

The Sorbs are distant relatives of all other Slavic peoples, such as Russians, Czeks, Slovaks etc. But the Serbs belong to the south Slavs and the Sorbs to the west Slavs. Occasionally people confuse Sorbs from Germany with Serbs from Serbia, and many believe that because they sound alike they are directly related. 217.185.86.179 14:11 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)

But probably there is a common etimology that should be explained. That is what was done at Dutch.

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Should this page be at Sorb, in keeping with rules about plurals? -- Jake 06:06, 2003 Nov 7 (UTC)

No, this is not a page on a Sorb, but on the Sorbs. Though "Sorbs" is a plural of "Sorb" gramatically, it is not always semantically - the word "Sorbs" has one meaning in "three Sorbs" and another in "the Sorbs"; this article is about the latter meaning, for which there is no singular. Nikola 09:52, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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In Serbian schools Sorbs (Luzic Serbs is what they are named in Serbia) is thought that they are distant relatives of Serbs, as well as the other Slavic nations. They remain Western Slavs. As Serbs remain Southern Slavs. That is it.

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Sorbs are the ancestors of the Serbs. Dont write about things you know nothing about. Sorbs founded 'White Sorbia' a kingdom once located where the Bundestaat of Saxony is today. They were invited into the Balkans to help subdue the populations already located their. They eventually lost their own, West Slavic, language and took on Southern Slavic speech of the groups they conquered. Anyway, thats more Serb history than Sorb, but you should at least get it right.

This crap about enslavement in Nazi Germany is crap. The Sorbs and Mazurians were the only minority groups in Nazi Germany to escape harsh treatment. The nazis tended to view both groups as Slavic-speaking Germans.

I am so sick of people who have no knowledge about any subject seamingly choosing randomly on what subjects to expound.

It is barely partly true. First thing we have to remember that Sorbs is an English name. These Sorbs call themselve (Lusatian) Serbs.

Secondly, there are many theories about origins of Serbs. Very interesting (and popular amongst historians) is theory about Iranic origins of Serbs. According to this theory Iranian tribe of Serbs subdued some Slavic tribes and was assimilated by them leaving their name (similary like in case of Bulgarians). According to this theory the "state" of those Serbs existed not in present day Lusatia but more east. On the basis of toponims, present day Great Poland is the most probably place. After that some Serbs (and Croats from White Croatia) could move south and settle in present day Serbia and other Serbs could move more west to present day Saxony.

And finally, talking about that "thay lost their own, West Slavic, language and took on Southern Slavic speech of the groups they conquered" has no point as before 10th century there were no separate South Slavic languages. Basically, western group of south Slavic (Serbo-Croatian, Slovenian) languages appear to derive from western dialects of Old Slavonic language and eastern group (Bulgarian, Macedonian) appear to derive from eastern dialects.Yeti 17:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Origin of Serbs article in Wikipedia states that the Serbs originated from the area populated by the Sorbs and that the two groups are (in a distant past) related to each other - basically, that the Sorbs are the Serbs who stayed behind when the 'Serbs' migrated to the Balkans in the 600s or so. Shouldn't the article at least make some mention of this (theory)?

Regards Osli73 23:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Famous Sorbs

I deleted "famous Sorbs", cause I have no sources for them really being Sorbs ... For discussion please see Talk:List_of_Sorbs too. Soky 00:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pleaze clarify!

The intro isnt clear Sorbs being German citizen or not. And wheter they live there have always lived there or are whatever. The only refeerence is territorial - and then with reference to the former (!) GDR. All a bit strange.

The Sorbs are the native people of the area they inhabit, and a remnant of a much bigger Slavic-speaking area that is now German-speaking. Names like Leipzig, Berlin, Lübeck and Dresden are all of Slavic origin, and it was the Germanic settling of the east from the middle ages onwards that made the Sorbs a Slavic enclave. So they live where they have always lived, and of course they are German citizens.

Neutrality

Sorb nationalism outside home was subjected to harsh control by the state, which aimed at Germanising the people. What's that nonsense about - it sounds like slavic right wing movement. The GDR not tried to Germanising the Sorbs, they strongly supportet their culture. For example never ever before there have been a Sobian theater and so on. The industrialisation had far other reasons, the econimy of East Germany needed the coal and thatswhy they no always cared for some villages. That was nothing against the Sorbs and happened the same way to the Germans. --Knarf-bz 15:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I also doupt the harsh control and germanisation of the sorbs, since during the times of GDR governmence an institute for sorbic culture studies was founded in 1951 at the "academy of science of the GDR" in Berlin as well as an institute for sorabistic at the University of Leipzig. In an article of the usual critical Der Spiegel magazin it says:

In the GDR the sorbs were fostered like never before. Erich Honecker discovered the people as a medium to praise their politics of minorities in the GDR. Under the SED regime, sorbic schools, publishers, theaters and many other cultural institutes were founded.

That does not really sound like surpression to me. I will start on working to change the section. Contributions will be welcomed. --Mandavi 12:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Photo is hard to make out

The photo of the road sign (Cottbus_zweisprachige_straßenbezeichnung.jpg) is very hard, if not impossible, to make out on the page. It is only when it is displayed at full size that the words become visible. Perhaps cropping it or adjusting the contrast would help. Otherwise the photo should probably be replaced unfortunately. Ireneshusband 03:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've cropped it and brightened it. Should be easier to read now. —Angr 09:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Population correction

The German population of prewar Silesia was 4.7 million, that of prewar Czechoslovakia about 3.5 million. Thus, the number given for the Germans expelled from Silesia and "the Sudetenland" (itself a questionable term) — 3 million — is misleading.

True, due to wartime dislocations, only about 1 million Germans remained in Silesia at the end of the war, but after the German surrender some returned to their homes, raising the German population in Silesia to about 2.5 million. (Source: Schieder, Theodor, ed. Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans from Eastern-Central Europe. Bonn (no date), p. 204.) The small corner of Silesia that remained German would not be a significant population factor.

Since at least 3 million of Czechoslovakia's Germans were expelled, and most of Silesia's except for a sizeable number of (often bilinqual) Upper Silesians around Oppeln/Opole, one must estimate that the number of Germans expelled from "Silesia and the Sudetenland" was closer to 5 million. But the syntax should avoid giving the impression that they comprised the entire prewar (pre-Nazi) German population of these regions, since around 2 million Silesians had either been killed or had fled before the Red Army in the last months of the war.

Sca 18:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Part "After World War II" very misleading!

Sorry, but the part "After World War II" twists the facts in a very interesting way. First of all, the Sorbs were a minority in this region long before 1940, and many parts, especially of Upper Lusatia, didn't look Slavic at all. Secondly, the Sorb National Council was founded and based for a long time in Prague, not Bautzen. They were just *one* representative of the Sorbs and didn't speak for all of them. In fact, the older Domowina, founded in 1913, as the traditional organ of the Sorbs, was certainly more representative. Anyway, the long time Prague based (hint) Sorb National Council demanded the takeover of the Sorbian lands by Czechoslovakia (and the Expulsion of the German majority as a consequence). Which was of course not illogical since some parts, i.e. Upper Lusatia, were part of Bohemia until 1635. The Czechs liked this idea also because it would have connected two very remote regions, Sluknov and Frydlant. The Domowina however, based in Bautzen (hint), opposed this idea and saw the future of the Sorbs inside Germany. So, you can't say the Sorbs wanted this or that because two sorbian institutions, a small and a big one, wanted completely different things. Oh, another one: Sorbian teachers and priests were not deported from the Reich, at least not completely, but relocated to other parts of the Reich. 84.181.101.24 11:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorbs and genetics

I have reverted the following edit ny Nasz:

Recent paper on molecular genetics reports very high 63% frequency of R1a1 Y chromosome marker. This marker link Sorbs parentaly with dominating group of Scythian warriors. If two mens have the same YDNA marker they are descendants of one father.

There are three reasons for my revert:

1. What paper? It should be cited. With a reference the first sentence can be restored. It s however too short to be a separate section.
2. The Scythian link is unproved (and possibly unprovable). We do not even know what haplotypes the Scythians had. See discussion on Talk:Scythians. The sentence must be removed until some data on Scythian genetics are available. The haplotype links Sorbians to Slavs, which they are, not Scythians.

N But some sholras made papers on it.

1. The third sentence is a patent nonsense. Do all 63% of male (not "men"!!!) Sorbs have really only one father? What's his name? The thing Nasz meant is probably: The gene is inherited from the paternal side".

N But if women so far ar not born without father.

F:Sorbs have really only one father?

N not only Sorbs but all humans probably too.

F: What's his name?

Ydna do not cary this data, but you can search the legends.

Nasz, when you find your citation please insert the info back but do nt m ake a separate section from it as it should be one sentence like this: A recent paper on molecular genetics reports a very high 63% frequency of paternally inherited R1a1 Y chromosome marker in Sorb population (citation goes here), linking to genetically to other Slavic nations of similar haplotype distribution. --Friendly Neighbour 12:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

F:I made the correction for Nasz

N I think you editeing Wikipedia for evrybody, but thanks for deication.

I made the correction for Nasz. I even found out the page numbers of the referenced paper (not present in the linked pre-print). Nasz, the extreme sloppiness of your edits makes it necessary to spend hours researching and correcting them. I hope that you will at least appreciate my effort and time put into improving your edits. --Friendly Neighbour 12:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

N: ok good work, thanks for inserting references is rather complex task and F: did it nicely. Nasz 14:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Citation

I just had a look at the Constitution of Brandenburg and I couldn´t find an expression that "explicitly declares any inquiry about ethnicity unconstitutional and illegal". Can anyone verify that sentence? --134.93.52.8 23:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Serbs?

According to Byzantine historians, the Serbian people split: one brother led the White Serbs to the Balkan peninsular in the first half of the 7th century (the so-called Unknown Archont)), while the other remained; the latter's descendants are modern-day Serbs.

Oh, and I recommend checking the Dervan article - it's a Serbian/Sorbian ruler that joined Samo's Empire in the first half of the 7th century, before a part of the people migrated southwards.

The link should be in the article, at least in some way. --PaxEquilibrium 00:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

White Serbs

Check out White Serbs as well. --PaxEquilibrium 00:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Theories on the origin of Serbs contains a lot on Sorbian history. --PaxEquilibrium 00:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorbs vs Serbs

Except for the name, there is not much genetic or any other co-relation between South Serbs and Lusatian Sorbs. When I checked into genetics between the two groups, I found that majority of North Serbs belong to R1a group; Most of the South Serbs belong to I haplogroup , close to 40% including myself (I checked) , and R1a<20%, and around the same ratio belong to R1b (15-20 %); Its proven that we mixed with Illyrs and Celts on the Balkan at the time of migration; Just like Lusitan Serbs mingled with Germans and later became Protestants; Now for the language; Ok, I can understand Bulgarians, Ukrainians and Russians; I can make out every 20th Polish word, hehe. So, since Sorbs are similar to Polaks, there you go, no language similarity either; That leaves us with the NAME, and culture; Even religion is way off; So God knows how we have the same name; —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Serbiancetnik (talk • contribs) 05:27, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

• Of course our genetics aren't the same, years of assimilation has made that clear, White Serbs = Sorbs, White Serbia = Sorbia, The Serbs moved southwards to the Balkans from great Poland.. //Written by a Serb. —Preceding comment was added at 09:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Lutherans and Catholics

According to Sorben: Ein kleines Lexikon published by Domowina, "Etwa 15 Prozent der sorbischen Bevölkerung sind katholischer Konfession. Als durch die Reformation das Bistum Meißen 1559 aufgelöst wurde, blieb allein in Bautzen ein katholisches Domkapitel bestehen, dem zum größten Teil sorbische Pfarreien unterstanden. Katholische sorbische Kirchgemeinden find wir in den Kreisen Bautzen, Kamenz und Hoyerswerda". Basically only the southernmost of the Upper Sorbs are Catholic; the remaining Upper Sorbs and all the Lower Sorbs are predominantly Lutheran. Which is interesting in that it makes the Sorbs probably the only Slavic ethnicity that is predominantly Protestant. Some more sources to read in this regard are http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-lu/uvod/mwalde-evangelischen_ger.html and http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-lu/uvod/mwalde-katholische_ger.html. However, I have heard that the language is being preserved better among Catholics than Protestants, so Catholics may well comprise a larger proportion of Sorbian speakers. This seems to be confirmed by the paragraph at the bottom of http://www.niederlausitz.de/web/6_19.reisetips_kultur_die_sorben.htm. But the Sorbian ethnicity includes people who speak only German, and they're pretty clearly mostly Protestant (by tradition at least if not by actual practice). —Angr 13:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, that we can't define what exactly a "Sorb" is. Maybe I'm a Sorb, because my grandpa was Sorbian. Maybe my friend from France is a Sorb, because he likes the Sorbian people. How many Sorbs are there? We can't answer the question. -- j.budissin 06:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

As with most ethnicities, it can only be defined in terms of self-identification. If you consider yourself ethnically Sorbian, you are. —Angr 16:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Flag

Could someone please clarify the status of the "national flag" on the article page? We don't normally have flags for ethnic groups. Does it have some official significance? Relata refero (talk) 13:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's recognized by the constitutions of Saxony and Brandenburg as the "Flag of the Sorbs". -- j.budissin (talk) 19:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Wendish

If "Since 2005, the Sorbs have their own political party, the Wendische Volkspartei." then why:

"N.B.: While the old German-derived labels “Wend” and “Wendish,” which once denoted “Slav(ic)” generally, have been retained in American and Australian communities, they ought not be used in place of “Sorb” and “Sorbian” with reference to Sorbian communities in Germany, because many consider them offensive these days."

194.46.188.194 (talk) 00:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Absurd distortion of Sorbian history

Most of this page seems to be written by slavic nationalists who project their issues with Germany onto the Sorbian people, but have no clue about the rich and complicated history of the region. The overestimation of the independence movement, which was supported only by a small minority, rejected by the majority + the Domowina and controlled by foreign interest groups (mainly the Czechs who wanted their slice of the cake (= defeated Germany)) is absurd. This episode plays almost no role in the historiography of the Sorbs (published by Sorbs itself!).
Ditto for the paragraph about Poles and Sorbs. The Sorbs never had special connections to the Poles. Because of the history of Lusatia and the geographical circumstances, they were always connected to the Czechs. Since the middle ages, when the Bohemian ruler protected them, and even after Bohemia lost Upper Lusatia, when the higher education of the Sorbs took place in Prague. The Poles on the other hand discovered their interest in the subject only after the rise of the Polish nationalism in the 19. century. For the history of the Sorbs, the connections to Bohemia and the Czechs are much, much more important. Karasek (talk) 08:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC) Please no OR and no insults against fellow editors.--Molobo (talk) 14:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Much of the glorifying Polish stuff seems to be OR. Without proper Refs much more should be deleted. Ißll try to put in more sources the next days. --Slavakav (talk) 21:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorbs in Poland ?

The infobox states that up to 15.000 Sorbs live in Poland. Strangely enough the article tells me nothing about them, although I can learn alot about the Polish solidarity with the Sorbs in Germany. If up to 15.000 Sorbs can maintain their traditions and language in such a similiar environment like Poland, where assimilation is so much easier, there have to be strong Sorbian institutions, schools etc.. Could we please get some enlightenment? How many Sorbian schools exist in Poland, and where? Is there a Polish Domowina or something like that? Karasek (talk) 18:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

There are no sorbian schools, no sorbian institutions and no sorbian native speakers left in Poland. -- j.budissin (talk) 14:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Where´s the coherence between the creation of West Germany and the activities of the "Polish guard over the Lusatia"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HerkusMonte (talk • contribs) 09:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

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For all you guys surprised by current Polish claims at wikipedia, remember that Poland based its claims of "re-establishing the Oder-Neiße Line" based on the "historical Poland of the Piasts a 1000 years earlier, when Boleslaw I thought to 'unite all the Slavic people, where-ever...". Naturally the Oder-Neiße Line was only the minnimum requirement, actually it was supposed to be the Rhine-Line.

How historically Polish is the land around the Oder-Neiße ?

'Map of Poland 992 AD, larger than beginning of Poland and already with conquered area in Silesia

Much is written that Poland today is about the same size as land of of the Polans, the later Poland, a 1000 years ago, that is in its beginnings of the early Piasts. This is a MAP of POLAND 992 AD]. Some territory was already conquered from Bohemia, such as around Wroclaw area, named for duke of Bohemia, which was part of the Holy Roman Empire. Small pocket was already conquered from Pomerania, but Poland was nowhere near the Baltic Sea

In the year 1000 Emperor Otto III made Boleslaw I 'brother and co-worker of the empire'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.64.78 (talk) 03:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC) After Emperor Otto III's early unexpected death in 1002, Boleslaw I Chrobry (son of Mieszko I, dukes of the Polans (around Gniesno), who both pledged allegiance to the Ottonian emperors), seized the imperial lands of Lusatia and Misnia (Meissen) and the principality of Bohemia (also allied to emperor). These actions started a series of three wars between Boleslaw I and the German king (later emperor) Henry II that lasted until 1018, when, by the Treaty of Bautzen, Boleslaw retained Lusatia and Misnia (Poles do not like to remember: as a fief of the empire) and Henry II won Bohemia. Boleslaw's expansionist policy continued. He defeated Grand Prince Yaroslav I the Wise of Kiev.... The year Emperor Henry II died, Boleslaw I tried to claim all conquests for himself and crowned himself king...Mieszko II had to return the conquests again and so on and so on...

In other words, they base(d) all their claims on conquests made a thousand years ago, which they held for a (few) dozen years and then had to return. But they tried and tried again, always "for the glory of re-gaining" or "re-establishing the glory of the Piasts empire". Molobo and others are just mirroring this trait. MfG 5 May 2008

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Interesting theory, but completely false. Naturally Boleslaw only inherited parts of territories Mieszko had. Territories of Polan were within that region [1]. The boast about emperors mean little, they had no power over Poles or Poland and were just representing occasional invaders with whom Polish rulers made peace. Also Poland was the state there, it joined tribes under its statehood. Your Germany was far away and within those borders slightly resembling modern West Germany: [2]. Only with Germanic crusades and conquest of Wends, Sorbs and other Slavic people, most of who were destroyed by the invasions, did the borders of Germanic kingdoms shifted East. The process went on for centuries, untill events of 1945 reverted some of Germanisation. --Molobo (talk) 04:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Faced with extinction due to Germanisation, Sorbs plead for help to President Kaczynski

More on calls for help in face of Germanisation issued by Sorb people towards Poland [3]. Current event, has to be included in neutral way into the article.--Molobo (talk) 23:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)