Talk:Anno Domini

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Objections

The objection by non-Christians to the use of AD is not that it refers to an date that used to be thought to be the date of Jesus' birth. It is that it means 'In the Year of Our Lord' and as such does not apply to non-Christians. It is not the year of Our lord, it is the year of Your lord. Its an expression of Christian belief, and is simply not right for a non-believer to use it. I personally have much less problems with BC, and I think others do, but since the thing comes as a parcel the only non-biased way to do it is to use CE and BCE. Which are, by the way, very common here in Europe. The Rev of Bru 18:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Technically, the initials 'BC' are also acknowledging something special. The term Christ is derived from the Greek translation of the Hebrew "Messiah". To say "BC" is to acknowledge that the Messiah promised in the Torah and Prophets has already come. To my knowledge, only Christians would acknowledge that, although the Qu'ran also gives Jesus (Isa) the title "Al Masih". --202.186.110.51 03:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• The word "month" is from pagan religions for moon. Should we not drop the word "month" because it is bigoted? This seems to be the logic of the people that want to drop AD and BC.

I moved the content of the A.D. page to Anno Domini tonight because I was having trouble getting redirects to work to pages of initials, like A.D. See the history of the A.D. page to follow the development of content before Anno Domini was created. <>< tbc, 11Aug01

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Question about "erae": is this the proper plural of "era". Isn't the Latin word "aera" already a plural (the plural of aes)? If so, "erae" can't be right. -- SJK

dunno. Don't have a Latin dictionary here, and I don't know the nominative.

Dictionary confirms era to be derived from the plural of aes, aeris. The difference in number and the fact that we dropped the a show that this is an English rather than a Latin word, so the plural is the normal eras.

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Can some actual historian please put all us dilettantes to shame here on questions of the meaning of and motivations behind "B.C.E.," etc.? --LMS

Should Common Era be merged with this article? <>< tbc

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I would say so, and I would rename the article Common Era. Anno Domini is not a noun or an adjective. "Common Era" is. -- SJK

I would strongly say no. They are two different terminologies used often by different people for the same numbering system. Using either CE or AD would be seen as POV siding with one side of the debate over the other. Similarly creating redirects would be seen as biased because whichever got the main page would be seen as the the winner, the redirect the relegated loser. The only NPOV way of doing this is to allow separate articles to exist on a related but different topic.

Re NPOV, by the way, the article did contain rather a lot of POV bits.

• It may be technically correct to put the number after AD but to say it is correct is factually wrong. The technical correctness comes from the latin, a language we don't speak any more. In english it is used by 99 times out of 100 in the form {number} AD. Language evolves and AD {number} is no longer widely used, no more than kyne remains the correct old plural for cow! {number} AD has through sheer usage evolved into an unambiguously correct term. When we all resort to using latin as our language of discourse we can start insisting on people following the latin terminology literally again.
• It is wrong to say that BCE and CE are the terms used in academia. They are the terms used by some academics, just as BC and AD are also used by some. Some accept both, some accept only one. To state categorically that either is the language of academics when it is still an issue of bitter debate in some academic circles is POV.
• The statement that some christians are unhappy with replacing BC/AD by BCE/CE because it will make them less popular is factually wrong. Their argument is that it would make them less visible, marginalising religion. Taken together with a range of issues that would marginalise religion, they suspect it may have an impact on popularity longterm on christianity. But using BCE/CE on its own is not a matter of popularity but visibility. FearÉIREANN 06:12 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It would be silly to have two separate pages for the same thing as CE/AD are just different names for exactly the same thing. Also if someone is going to be unhappy with a dating system centred around the birth of Christ, I dont't see how just changing the name is going to make this ok.

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Can somebody expand on the era of the Italian fascists? Was it intended to substitute te Gregorian calendar? -- Error 04:07 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I added a bit about that...I don't know if it was meant to eventually replace the Gregorian Calendar, but they did use both kinds of years. Adam Bishop 04:17 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Less exciting than what I understood. Early Francoist Spain added the "Year I of the Victory" (after 1939). Should this be mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if nazi Germany did something similar. -- Error

I don't think the Nazis did anything like that...maybe some of the more mystical members of the party did, since a lot of them wanted to go back to an idealized prehistoric Germany. Hitler didn't believe in that stuff though. There were terms like "thousand year Reich" but that just referred to the previous two reichs. Since Hitler set up the Third, I don't think he was trying to rewrite the calendar. I can't think of any instance where any Nazis ever used anything but the normal date, and I know Hitler talked about the future with normal dates, like "by 1950 we will do such and such", etc. But I could be wrong :) I also don't know anything about the Franco's Spain, so I don't know what they did with the calendar. Adam Bishop 03:43 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Looking around, official war reports from Franco bore this addition to the date: n Año Triunfal counting from 1936. I am not sure if "Año de la Victoria" appeared only in 1939 after April 1st. -- Error 04:35 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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About the AD 2003/2003 AD, isn't the discussion futile? Properly the year should be in Roman numerals? Besides, isn't Latin word order flexible enough to accomodate such moves? And what have the Romans done for us? -- Error 01:42 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Besides, the sewers, the roads, the aqueducts? :) Anyway, if you want to make it a proper Latin year, it's AD MMDCCLVI, isn't it? (2756?) Adam Bishop 03:36 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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The Carolingian use of A.D. may well have had twin ideological reasons of breaking away from using the Byzantine era and defusing certain strains of apocalyptic thought.

Is this a reference to the year 1000 and millenarism? How does using a system that uses big numbers that may be symbolic defuse apocalypticism (!) ? Or are you talking about number 666 plus Diocletian era? -- Error 00:37 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Byzantines didn't use AD years, they started with the creation of the world. I forget exactly what year they considered it to be in 1000, but it was somewhere between 6000 and 7000. Adam Bishop 00:51, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Byzantines counted in Anno Mundi. The creation of the world according to their chronology was placed on September 1, 5509 BC. The year 1000 AD was equivalent to their year 6509 AM under the reign of Basil II User:Dimadick

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Ugh. I have several criticisms of this article as it currently stands:

• Pre-Christian dating schemes in the West. In Europe & the related parts of North Africa & the Near East, years were identified most frequently by the name of an official, such as an archon or consul. (Both the Pliny the Elder and Livy identify their years by naming the consuls in office.) Thucydides dates the beginning of the Peloponnesian War in a relative sense, counting the number of years from several events, as well as providing the year of various priesthoods (Book II, ch.6). The Greeks later used a scheme of dating from the First Olympiad, but they counted the number of games celebrated, which occured every year.

There was also the Seleucid Era, which dated events from the death of Alexander the Great, & was in use as late as the 8th century; & the Spanish Era, which dated events from 38 BC, & was used as late as Isidore of Seville in the 7th century. Dating by AUC was actually quite rare, since even the Romans were uncertain about the actual year their city was founded in.

• Early Christian Methods of Dating. It took several generations for the Christian community to settle on the use of Anno Domini. One early practice was to date from the end of the persecution of Diocletian. Another was to date Anno Passionis, from the date of the Death of Christ, not his birth -- which is a far more important event to the Christian Religion. ISTR that this event was traditionally dated to the consulate of the Gemini (i.e., L. Rubellius Geminus & C. Fufius Geminus in AD 29), but I have been unable to find my reference for that fact; this event has been dated varyingly from AD 28 to AD 32. (I remember the character in de Camp's Lest Darkness Fall remarking that if the protagonist wanted to know what the exact year was from Christ's birth, he should ask a priest.)

Also at this time, dating by indiction was common, especially in official documents. I'm not sure how late this method was used, only that it was probably discontinued by AD 1000.

The article is correct about the Byzantines dating Anno Mundi. However the exact year A.M. varied from place to place due to disagreements over just how it should be calculated. And regnal years were frequently given as an aid to further identify a date.

Further, I believe that Bede was known not for his use of Anno Domini, but for inventing the use of "Before Christ" for dates.

• The section Other Eras in Common Use I'm puzzled why this is here. Isn't the discussion under Era enough? We lack similar sections under the articles linked to. (Although a mention/discussion of the Common Era is necessary. -- llywrch 16:48, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I encourage you to work on the article itself, at least for those issues you are quite sure that you are improving. --Zero 22:14, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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Removed the last paragraph since it didn't make much sense. The Gregorian calendar started in 1582, so dating something in the year of the Gregorian calendar wouldn't start the measure in 1 A.D.

--User:Roadrunner 8 Jan 2004

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From the text:

These abbreviations are usually placed after the year number. In strict literal latin, the number should follow AD, but in practice, the number has generally come to be placed in front of the letters, e.g. "1 A.D." (there being no year 0), etc.

I'm not a fan of proscriptive over descriptive usage, but I have to say the only places I have encountered the abbreviation "AD" after the number are (1) on Wikipedia, & (2) in clearly illiterate context. Would someone like to demonstrate to me that contemporary English has changed about this point when I wasn't looking, or should I consider that someone is trying to slip in a justification to excuse her/his persistent mistakes? If it's the latter, I'll happily delete these sentences & fight to the death to keep it from our pendantic shores. -- llywrch 02:53, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I see AD after the number all the time...and by "all the time" I mean, generally so often that I can't think of specific example...but I will look for one. (Obviously it's wrong, but for some people AD and BC don't really mean anything anymore, so it doesn't really matter, I don't think.) Adam Bishop 06:36, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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The use of CE and BCE is much more prevalent in North America than in the rest of the world. This can be seen in website usage of these terms. In Europe the terms are not at all common. Also, the statement 'This usage is preferred in much academic writing,...' would perhaps be more accurate as 'This usage is preferred in some academic writing,...'

Does anyone object to my editing the text to take account of these points? User:Arcturus 19th June 2004.

No comments received by 27th June so I've made the changes indicated above. User:Arcturus 27th June 2004.

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Should some reference be made to the fact that many Americans (wrongly) believe AD to stand for After Death (of Christ)? Chazzoz 15:39, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

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I'm sorry, but the image here "a monk, in a scriptorium" is a bit silly. It should either be Dionysius Exiguus (or at leas a scythian monk) or then an early calendar or something. As it is now, it's just pointless dab 15:50, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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As for a featured article, it has a pretty grave error.

The Anno Domini era is the only system in everyday use in the Western hemisphere, and the main system for commercial and scientific use in the rest of the world. Secularists, both Christian and non-Christian, however, object to a system based upon an event in the Christian faith; for this reason, the same epoch is also referred to as the Common Era, abbreviated CE.

In most languages the only system used is the "Common Era" system. English is an exception, not a rule. Taw 19:04, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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This is a very interesting and well done article. I'm new to this, so I don't feel qualified to make any changes myself, but I have a couple minor comments.
- In regard to Charlemagne moving to the A.D. system for political reasons, I thought you were going to say something about the fact that he was crowned Holy Roman Emperor on Christmas Day of A.D. 800, a nice round number. He may have even been trying to foster some millenarian ideas that would culminate in himself, but I don't know much about that.
- The B.C./A.D. system does not imply that Jesus was born in 1 B.C., as is stated several times in this article. 1 B.C. is "the first year before Christ," while A.D. 1 is "the first year of our Lord." Thus, the system implies that Christ was born in A.D. 1. -MatthewT, 6 Sep 2004

Regarding BC/AD, note that our modern count of years is simply the extension of the year numbers assigned to known events by previous authors. To determine when Christ was born in this system we must consult the originator of the system, Dionysius Exiguus. Although he does use the term "Anni Domini Nostri Jesu Christi" (in the year of our Lord Jesus Christ) at the head of his table, he prefers the term "annus ab incarnatione Domini nostri Jesu Christi" (the year since the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ) in his discussion, making it clear that his epoch was Christ's Incarnation (or conception), not his birth. Furthermore, he only uses the term relative to his table of Easter dates beginning AD 532, thus if he had referred to AD 1 he would have meant the (proleptic) Easter one year after Christ's Incarnation. Combining this with the standard instituted by Bede for historians that 1 BC precedes AD 1 means that Dionysius placed Christ's Incarnation on the date we now call March 25, 1 BC. This implies that Christ was born nine months later on December 25, 1 BC according to Dionysius and in agreement with the article. Christ's actual Incarnation or birth is an entirely separate question. For Dionysius' table and discussion in both Latin and English see Cyclus Decemnovennalis Dionysii or Nineteen Year Cycle of Dionysius. — Joe Kress 23:18, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

I object to the following sentence in the introduction:

The Christian Era is the only system in everyday use in the Western World, and the main system for commercial and scientific use in the rest of the world.

The Unix epoch is assumed to have begun January 1, 1970T00:00:00Z, and is the dominant time stamp system on most computers. It is correlated to the Gregorian Calendar, but it is also correlated to dozens of other calendar systems transculturally. For commercial and scientific use, Unix time is both more common (in sheer number of transactions using it) and more universal. It is also misleading, as the grocer in my neighborhood (Vancouver, BC) hangs a chinese calendar, various religious organizations follow their specific calendars, and the calendar most popular in some sections of town is the Malaysian official which covers the Islamic, Budhist, and a half-dozen other ethnic/religious dating systems. There is no monolithic "Western World". Furthermore, almost no one in western culture dates an object, a check or a memo, "AD"; there is no common use of the specificity of the term.

I disagree. The Unix Epoch is defined as 1/1/1970, setting its place in 1970 AD. Your grocer in Vancover puts '2005' on his checks, which is the very definition of 'everyday use'. The very fact that he is using 2005 -- which can only mean 2005 AD -- is sufficient to demonstrate use. You would undoubtably recognize a difference between 'Canadian' and 'American' despite the fact that many (if not most) people consider the former to belong to the latter. Likewise 'Western World' exists whether you recognize such a thing or not. It is an objective distinction, not dependent upon your opinions.

Popularity of abbreviations

1. In the United States, how popular as of 2004 are B.C.E. and C.E. compared to B.C. and A.D.
2. How about in the United Kingdom?? 66.32.240.129 14:55, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Virtually 0% use of BCE or CE in the UK.

Errr

I'm currently reading treaties and the like from Post world war one. I note that 'CE' is prominently used in documents to differentiate between the years for documents which cover both the Islamic (or other) and our Calenders'.

just worth noting.

Punctuation

I just did a brief survey of my history textbooks and they all have one of the following:

A.D. xxxx

xxxx C.E.

Now, of course, we expect textbooks to be a bit more rigid about putting the A.D. before the date, and of course a random sampling of my textbooks is hardly conclusive, but why is it that this article does not at any point refer to the abbreviations as "A.D., B.C., C.E., B.C.E." instead of "AD, BC, CE, BCE"? If we decide that either format is acceptable (and I would like to be shown evidence that version without periods is acceptable in an academic or scholarly context—I'll take whoever's word for it that such evidence exists, but I would like to be shown it nonetheless), we should at least include a note in the article to that effect. See [1], but also [2].

I don't mind picking a standard for use on Wikipedia, but we should explain what the standard is and why it was chosen - and we should also make it clear that this is a Wikipedia standard and does not necessarily reflect usage elsewhere. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 14:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) makes it clear that periods must not be used, neither in the title of a page, nor in links to that page. Even when not linked they are not used by inference. However, no justification for that style is given, nor did anyone discuss the issue in the reams of discussion on its talk page that I can find (nine archived pages!). You should ask there to determine the reason, if any. In contrast, see calendar era for a page that only uses periods. Thus the original author of the page can influence the style of that page (until a copy editor gets around to making the page conform). Personally, I prefer no punctuation because it serves no useful purpose. Nevertheless, scholarly papers must obey the style manual of the journal within which they are published, which most of the time requires A.D., B.C. Yet it seems pedantic or archaic to insist on it. Not using periods in era abbreviations is becoming more common. The SI metric system may have some influence here—periods are forbidden in all SI units because they are regarded as symbols, not abbreviations. — Joe Kress 20:01, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll bring it up over there. (I don't want to insist that one version or the other is correct. I would just prefer to have this article acknowledge the existence of another, probably equally valid version.)--[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 22:00, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Split off Common Era

I would request that the article be split into two separate entries, Anno Domini and Common Era, as discussed above. I don't want to get overly humourless and ubersecular, but they are separate topics and the redirect does indeed give an impression of bias. --Suitov 15:02, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, maybe that's what should be done, but most references to CE/BCE should then be taken out of this article. Perhaps just a single mention of the controversy should remain, with a link to the new CE/BCE article. I hate CE and BCE so I would be happy to have mention of them expunged from this article. I see this point has been debated earlier in this Talk. If someone would care to write a new article on CE/BCE I'll amend this one to take account of it. Arcturus 18:22, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I would strongly agree that CE and BCE should be split off into a separate article that also looks at why CE/BCE exist separately from AD/BC. When I first learned the CE/BCE usage (in a university history class) it was like a revelation for me. It's always irked me that the calendar was so strongly tied to Christianity. I realize this is POV of course. Sbwoodside 07:55, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Not that C.E./B.C.E. is really any less strongly tied to Christianity, but you're right that it probably doesn't belong in this article except perhaps as one brief mention. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 12:30, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'll file the new article under Common Era prime and then someone who knows more about wikipedia than I do, can rename it to Common Era and fix the redirect or whatever it is. Sbwoodside 02:39, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, I have done the split off. All that remains is to move "Common Era prime" to where is should be, in Common Era (currently that just redirects to here, and I can't change it).

• I wrote the Common Era article from scratch
• then I moved the content on the subject of CE from here to there (adding to what I wrote myself)
• then I removed the CE stuff from this article. It was concentrated in the last section, so that was easy.
• Also, I fixed the introduction to this article where it referred to CE. The basis was wrong, so I generalized and and just refer people to Common Era to find out what's going on.

The new article should give the background of what the Common Era means, where it comes from, why people want to use it, and why other people don't want to use it. (Even though I'm in favour of CE I think I presented the POVs equally). Sbwoodside 04:29, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I copied the contents of CE' into CE. Common Era was a separate article until its contents were merged into Anno Domini on January 10, 2004, so I copied it rather than moved it to preserve the previous History and Talk of Common Era. See the next to last edit by Roadrunner in its History for its contents at that time. It might move back again! — Joe Kress 06:38, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

FYI, the proper way to copy the contents back to the redirect page would have been to first type Common Era in the search box and click Go. The article Anno Domini would have appeared but with the redirect page, Common Era, linked below it. Clicking on that link would have caused the redirect page to appear which could then be modified. — Joe Kress 05:08, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

I just came to this page on a redirect from 'Common era', someone more knowledgeable than I should change the redirect, as it makes no sense.

Done—Common era now redirects to Common Era. — Joe Kress 07:25, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Move this page to Christian Era?

I think that in fact this page should be title Christian Era. Anno Domini is the designation used for years in the Christian Era. The Christian Era itself (as first defined by Dionysius Exiguus in 52whatever) is the era that we are talking about here ... AD is simply a way of designating a number as being meaningful within that era. See calendar era for an idea of what an era is. Anno Domini is not an era; it is a designation. To quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia [[3]](which I think we can bow to on this matter):

"Christian Era ... This was introduced about the year 527 by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk resident at Rome, who fixed its starting point in the year 753 from the foundation of Rome, in which year, according to his calculation, the birth of Christ occurred. Making this the year 1 of his era, he counted the years which followed in regular course from it, calling them years "of the Lord", and we now designate such a date A.D. (i.e. Anno Domini)" [emphasis added]

Sbwoodside 03:02, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There are many other Christian Eras than that using AD years: The Coptic Church begins its Era of Martyrs at 284-85, the Ethiopic Church begins its Incarnation Era at 8-9, and the Byzantine Era began at 5509-08 BC, not to mention the many different AM years used during the first millennium by various authors and churches, like the Alexandrian Era at 5493-92 BC. — Joe Kress 05:08, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

There was also a Spanish Era that began in 38 BC. Adam Bishop 05:54, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether AD is a 'designation' or an era. One thing's for sure, it's a topic, and as such merits its own article. I think the new article of Common Era should include mention of Christian Era - that they are, in fact, one and the same thing, the former being just a politically correct device to appease those who can't accept reality. Arcturus 19:06, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, I linked to this article in the common era article (it's the first link). I would personally argue that they are not the same thing (and certainly they are not the same topic). I would agree that they coincide perfectly in terms of dates, but from a post-modern perspective, one is christo-centric and the other is not, which makes them different. I would argue that, instead, the Common Era primarily is a neutral Era, and secondarily that it coincides with the Christian Era as a matter of pragmatic convenience; in other words, it would have been better, but impracticable, to choose a new starting point. It's a different point of view on the subject than you might have, but valid in a post-modern (thus relative) sense, ignoring the politically correct (taken as revisionistic) sense.

Well, I think if numerically identical, that is BC=BCE, and AD=CE for any year, than we should merge them (I won't personally). The fact there were numbering differences in the past means little. Often synonomis emerge due to seperate histories. There's only one Falkland Islands article. We don't write a seperate article from the "Spanish/Argentine" side, and another from the British side. It's merged into one, since it refers to one thing. How is this different? --rob 19:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Accuracy of dating section

Someone (or maybe a couple of people) keeps tagging "if he existed at all" into this section.

I am only a beginning Biblical scholar, but my impression has been that most actual scholars do believe that there was some person who existed. I don't think the "if he existed it all" disclaimer is accurate. However, I'm willing to discuss other ways to make this section seem less POV. (And, of course, my impression is not worth much as evidence. Can we find some? I'll try to find some references.) [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 19:37, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Isn't it obvious, like by definition, that a Biblical scholar would assume that Jesus existed? The idea that there should be "if he existed at all" in there seems ludicrous. I should think that most historians, even non-religious ones, would agree that there's a strong probability that the historical Jesus existed (even if he wasn't truly the son of God) Sbwoodside 20:00, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is remarkably little evidence for a Historical Jesus. Even Christians admit that the only evidence they have for him are the gospels, which are not, and were not written as, historical documents. Most unbiased scholars discount the events claimed in the gospels... which leaves no evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. See historicity of Jesus for more. There are some documents from around ~2CE that mention christians... but that doesnt mean that there was a historical Jesus Christ. (if you dont understand why, ask yourself this question: is the existence nowadays of people who believe in alien abduction and flying saucerss proof that aliens are visiting the earth? (notwithstanding any other evidence)? The Rev of Bru 02:58, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The evidence, however, does seem to indicate that someone existed. Historians today are more interested in what we can ascertain about his life, not in whether or not he ever had one. The gospels are not the only source. There are references by such writers as Paul, Josephus, and Tacitus (source: [4]). Does anyone have clear evidence that there are, in fact, a significant number of scholars who don't believe that any such person ever existed? [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 15:40, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

See bibliography(ies) in rewrite in progress at Historicity of Jesus/. There are many scholars who question the existence of the literal person, but for very few topics is it specifically relevant (iow: if researching the crusades, it doesn't matter if he was, in fact, an allegorical character so long as he served as a motivation for the events studied, so it won't be an element of the research report.) Further, use of the term "scholar" is in question at WikiProject Jesus since it often a way to include a huge population of theologians while simultaneously excluding amateur historians (who, oddly enough, produce a surprisingly large percentage of published peer-reviewed journal articles.) Conclusion: the use of "majority" or "minority" view on this topic is disputed. - Amgine 21:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Proposed style change

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/proposed revision 1) proposes "BC" and "AD" (in contrast with "BCE" and "CE") as standard for Wikipedia, 2) apparently encourages linking of years, and 3) encourages linking of units of measurement, among other changes. It also reverses the style of many of the dates used within the guide (such as "February 12" to "12 February"). See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) for discussion. Maurreen 01:41, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not sure what this has got to do with the article, but Maurreen has not provided an accurate summary of the proposed revision. However, anyone interested in it can go to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) to discuss it, jguk 08:06, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

New proposal concerning AD and NPOV

I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:33, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Year calculation method in Taiwan (ROC)

I know that paragraph is a little bit off topic, yet someone put that in, so I'd like to comment on the accuracy. The way to calculate "in the year of ROC" is using the year in AD minus 1911. Therefore, should we put the correct year in the content? bobby 13:23, 5 July 2005 (UTC)

You are confusing many different events. The Wuchang uprising on 10 October 1911 was the event that led to the creation of the Republic of China—the republic was not created on that day. The republic was declared by Sun Yat-sen on 1 January 1912, which he also declared to be the first day of the Gregorian calendar in China. However, the republic ceased to exist the next year when China descended into a period of warlordism, which did not end until Chiang Kai-shek overthrew the Beijing warlord in late 1928 and decreed the new Republic of China to be in existence beginning 10 October 1928 (note the same date in different years). The Gregorian calendar was reaffirmed effective 1 January 1929 by outlawing the traditional calendar. 1929 was also the first year that ROC years were actually used, but they were backdated to 1912. Although you are correct that the ROC year is AD-1911, such a calculation should not be in the article—only the first year should be in the article. 1911 is year 0 of the calculation. 1912-1911=1, thus 1912 was the first year. — Joe Kress 6 July 2005 02:19 (UTC)

Cease-fire on eras

I've suggested a cease-fire on eras, at the Village pump. Maurreen (talk) 09:38, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Question regarding use of "Roman Empire"

I was confused by the bold part of this (from Anno Domini#The popularization of Anno Domini:

A few generations later, the Anglo-Saxon monk Bede, who was familiar with the work of Dionysius, also used Anno Domini dating in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People, finished in 731. Bede was different from historians working in more important places in two ways: First, he was in Northumbria, outside the bounds of the later Roman Empire.

Should it be "earlier Roman Empire", or "later Holy Roman Empire"? Or am I just confused? Chuck 23:48, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

You have a right to be confused. I am not sure what the editor who added that paragraph had in mind. He mentions Italy, France, and Spain, which were part of the Western Roman Empire until its dissolution in the fifth century. When Bede wrote his History in 731, they were not part of any empire and they certainly weren't "more important places". The Holy Roman Empire did not begin until 834. The only part of the Roman Empire still in existence in 731 was the Eastern Roman Empire which was the most important place at that time, especially its capital Constantinople. But its historians usually used the Alexandrian Era, which is just as good as any other very long term era. Besides Constantinople, the British Isles, including Northumbria, were indeed the most important places. Continental centers of learning, mainly in monasteries, were established a century later by disciples of Bede himself. The editor seems to be of the opinion that a plethora of regnal dating systems were in use, which simply wasn't the case in my opinion. I'm not sure how to better word that paragraph. — Joe Kress 20:58, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Why is the epoch Jesus' date of birth, rather than death?

The article doesn't address something I've occasionally wondered about.

Why was the year of Jesus's birth, rather than the year of his death, used as the epoch?

I would have thought the year of Jesus's death would be a much more natural starting point to use for both theological and historical reasons.

Theologically, the death and resurrection of Christ are far more important to Christians than his birth. Historically, Jesus was famous at the time of his death and therefore it has more and better historical evidence than the time of his birth.

So, why was the date of his birth chosen as the starting point? Dpbsmith (talk) 16:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

This depends on the luck of history. Many different Christian counts of years have been used over the last two millennia. The dominant Christian count during the first millennium did not even refer to Christ—it was the Anno Mundi (in the year of the world) era counted from Creation (several counts existed), used by almost all Western (originally Latin) Christians for the first five centuries, and by Eastern (originally Greek) Christians until AD 1700 when Russia adopted the AD count, and even by some Eastern Christians privately to this day. Relative to Christ, in AD 457 Victorius bagan his 532-year Easter table in the year we now call AD 28, where Easter is an annual celebration of Christ's Resurrection. During the first three centuries it was an annual remembrance of his Crucifixion. Sometimes both were combined into the Parousia. The errors in Victorius's table caused it to be replaced. Bede's great influence caused the count by Dionysius Exiguus to dominate. The habit of writing brief notices of what happended in a specific year in the margins of Easter tables caused the AD count to be used historically as well, even before Bede by Irish monks. Ironically, Dionysius does not even mention Christ's birth or Nativity, instead he always refers to his Incarnation or conception, which by the time he wrote in AD 525 was firmly fixed on 25 March, nine months before 25 December, which had been fixed as his Nativity in the fourth century. I'm not sure why Dionysius uses the Incarnation of Jesus as opposed to his Resurrection. After all, he only created a new Easter table just like Victorius (which was to replace it), and did not use his count of years for any historical purpose. — Joe Kress 21:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

year 0; scientific/astronomical

Joe Kress changed the bit about scientific numbering. I reworded it again in an attempt to put in it in a wider perspective. What I mean to say is that the AD/BC numbering deviates from the standard western numbering system. But I wonder if the year 0 is only used in astronomical numbering. Isn't it used more generally in science, or is it just that the problem only presents itself in astronomy? Also, it makes sense to mention why the year 0 is omitted in the christian numnering system (the Romans didn't know a zero). And how often does one need a precision of one year? Rarely, I presume. And finally, how common is the numbering without a zero? There was quite some dispute over when the 20th century started, so one can't state that the non-zero option is the most common one. Actaually, most people celebrated it on 1 January 2000 (not 2001), but that was probably not for this reason. DirkvdM 08:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I am certain that the classical Romans knew about the number zero. We are taught that they did not know about zero because virtually all books and articles on the history of numbers only discuss number symbols, not number words. They had two perfectly good Latin words meaning nothing which would mean zero in an arithmetic context, nulla and nihil. I am certain that any arithmetic treatise by a classical Roman author would mention zero via these words. I suspect that some Roman may have even used a symbol for zero, the obvious choice being the initial of the Latin words, N, just as C from centum means 100 and M from mille means 1000. N was actually used at least once by Bede or a colleague about 725 in an epact table reprinted in the Corpus Christianorum.

Be that as it may, it has no bearing on the article because the Romans did not invent the AD era. But the person who did, Dionysius Exiguus, certainly knew about zero because he used it in the same table where he introduced the AD era, although in a different column. See my discussion in year zero#Bede.

No other scientific discipline besides astronomy uses a year zero. Archaeology uses several methods to date events, but none are negative years. "Years before present" literally means the number of radiocarbon years before 1950, but often means the same thing as "years ago", before 2000 or 2005. Of course, BC or BCE is also used, producing a number about 2000 smaller, and is preferred for historical dates because the artifacts thus dated can be correlated with historical dates obtained from written sources, which never use a year zero. Dendrochronology (tree rings) can be dated to a single year, but use BC/BCE. Geology usually uses "years ago". I can't think of any other scientific discipline that refers to years before the AD era.

Precision to a single year is normal for the first three centuries BC. Indeed, an error of one year is serious. No historian uses a year zero, which itself is over 99% of all recorded dates before the AD era (astronomy's use of zero is negligible).

— Joe Kress 04:36, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I just wonder about that last phrase; astronomy's use of zero is negligible. Do you mean by that that astronomy uses such big numbers that whether one uses a system with or without a zero doesn't really matter (as opposed to in archaeology). The only problem I can think of is with something like a supernova before 0 that was recorded at the time but later expressed with the BC/AD notation. And that would only be the case with European records. If they were Chinese the discrepancy would be so obvious that confusion is unlikely. DirkvdM 10:46, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

You're concern is warranted. I didn't like the phrase myself after re-reading it. I should have said "astronomy's use of zero is negligible by comparison, much less than 1%". Astronomy habitually uses a year 0, but the total of all astronomical dates in all books is very small compared to the total of all historical dates in all books, mostly because many more historical books are written than astronomical books. Furthermore, the phrase did not refer to a precision of one year, thus it should have been in another paragraph. — Joe Kress 06:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Upon rereading it was clear what you meant. I added the above info to the Astronomical year numbering article. See what you think. DirkvdM 07:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Removal of weasel words

I have removed the sentence "This terminology is often preferred in interfaith dialog." (when referring to BCE/CE notation from the introduction as it is non-specific - in other words, weasel words). The word "often" gives no indication of commonality and no source is available. Besides, most interfaith dialogue does not include discussion of events happening over 2,000 years ago, but concentrates more on the present and recent past, so the use of any terminology for dates is not at all in point. Also, I'm not sure the sentence adds anything to the article, jguk 20:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added this comment to CDThieme's talk page, as he, as yet, seems unwilling to explain his reverts on the talk page:

CDThieme, ArbCom merely ruled that I can't change BCE to BC or CE to AD in any article. I'm quite permitted to do anything else that is in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Eg, where appropriate, I can remove BCE and CE, replace a reference to, say "around 2000 BCE" to "around 4,000 years ago", remove references to "(the) Common Era" or "Before (the) Common Era". There's no need to overplay the position.

If you could argue that you would be making such a change in good faith, which, given that there have already been two arbitration cases against you, is pretty tough. squell 21:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The first one didn't rule against me. The second one didn't allow me to present evidence. Besides, the ruling against me puts me on a par with two ArbCom members, so I'm in good company. I suppose prolific editors have to accept that that will be the case from time to time in the current climate on WP. But to address your specific point, I have always edited in good faith, and there has been no finding to the contrary. Anyway, the question here is whether (1) there is support for the statement (in which case the statement can, at the very least, be revised so that it better reflects the evidence), and (2) whether, in any event, it is relevant to an article on "Anno Domini"?, jguk 21:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

What I mean is that even from my limited exposure, it seems apparent you have something against Common Era dating, and would prefer Wikipedia to steer people away from it. Also, on Wikipedia itself, there have been many discussions about AD vs CE dating, some of which you have participated in, so you should know that there is support for the statement. It is relevant to Anno Domini because it explains why someone would prefer a different name for exactly the same thing. — squell 08:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

What I have against it is that, in world terms, it is little used and little understood. On google searches BC has precedence over BCE by a margin of 9 or 10 to 1, in real life (bearing in mind that google searches on the subject will give greater weighting to usage by the US and by academia) it has been estimated at 50 to 1. It's a question of conveying information clearly to as wide an audience as possible, and that means using terminology a wide audience will understand. Here, I am not against making reference to the term "Common Era", and would agree that it is inappropriate to delete it (after all, we're in the business of providing useful information, not deleting it). What I am questioning is the usefulness of the sentence afterwards, which is "This terminology is often preferred in interfaith dialog". That sentence is meaningless for this article, has no providence (or at least no providence for which a source is provided), and suggests the terminology is far more prevalent than in fact it is (and if I'm wrong on this, it ought to be possible to provide sources to contradict me - and ought to be possible to be more exact than the imprecise word "often"), jguk 09:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I've noted your arguments before. It's not really relevant to bring that up here, anyway — personally, I don't care about AD/CE. I just think going on about this at length is a waste of time and likely to corrupt articles. I'm going to be bold and change the statement (drawing from Common Era), interpreting it simply as an explanation of why some prefer CE dating. — squell 11:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

On Anno Domini I have removed the sentence "This terminology is often preferred in interfaith dialog.", which, quite patently, can't be described as changing BCE to BC or CE to AD. I have elucidated on my reasons on Talk:Anno Domini, as well as mentioned in the edit summaries that these are "weasel words". My explanation on talk goes further and says that these are unsupported by references and, in any event, would be irrelevant to a discussion on "Anno Domini". If you wish to disagree with me, please explain why on the talk page (Talk:Anno Domini. If you do not wish to argue a case alternative to mine, please allow my edit to stand, jguk 21:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I look forward to a constructive response, jguk 21:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Squell, thank you for your suggestion, which is to add "because of its less overt religious implications", but I am still going to remove it as it is a statement that I do not believe to be generally true. For example, many Jewish scholars use CE because it is, in their view, not Christian, rather than because CE is less overt - had AM notation been used instead, they would not object. The difficulties in explaining the arguments and history in using the term "Common Era" appear to have been discussed in some detail above, and to have led to a new breakaway article at Common Era being created to discuss the issue. The sentence preceding it makes clear that there is more to be read on "Common Era" if a reader so chooses - thereby encouraging the reader to learn more about it. To my mind this means we don't need to offer a summary of the reasons, which will necessarily be inaccurate, here, jguk 22:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to remove my addition again — you removed it, and CDThieme apparently also doesn't think it is a proper substitute; it's not my intent to pepper this article with superfluous by-sentences. I would like to ask CDThieme to explain what "interfaith dialog" actually means. I'd also suggest Jguk and CDThieme stop editing this article and wait for other editors who will have this page on their watchlist to jump in. I get the feeling this dispute is too much about ideology, while what is needed are practical arguments by people who don't give a rats ass about either dating style. squell 09:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I apologise that I didn't read your note until I'd just reverted CDThieme. As my edit summary noted (without the benefit of reading your comments), I also think "it's often preferred in interfaith dialogue" is meaningless. It's also, as you note, an aside. I'll leave it for others to discuss now, jguk 19:19, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with jguk. However, I suspect that it is possible to find a verifiable source that says this, and it would be more productive to go look for one than to carry on a revert war over a sentence that is plausible but is vague, unsourced, and weasel-worded. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Instead of trying to develop consensus, people just keep editing, even though there are now three people here who cast their doubts about the factual accuracy of the statement about interfaith dialog, and then it gets expanded thus:

The use of CE has become increasingly popular in recent decades as a recognition that Christianity is not universally accepted, and that others should not be forced to accept the divinity of Jesus, even implicitly, by the use of the Anno Domini system.

This is highly POV, since it implies that indeed, using AD is an implicit recognition of said divinity and more egregiously, that using it is forcing christianity upon others.

This is backed up here: http://www.ucc.org/ucnews/jan03/asiseeit.htm. How is it POV to suggest the some people prefer CE because of the perceived bias (whether real or not) of using BC/AD. Do you have an alternative reference explaining the reasons to use CE rather than BC/AD? Note that I don't say that using BC/AD implies a belief in the divinity of Jesus, but rather that some of those who use CE believe that. Sortan 22:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Then you should agree that ".. as a recognition that [...] foo should not" is too strong language. It was also tautological because it said the same thing about christianity twice. If you don't mind, I think this Talk section has been blown tremendously out of proportion for such a small piece, and second, I'm very content with dpbsmith's last edit, which is a major improvement over anything that was here previously squell 00:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I would be fine with rewording it with other language, but I feel that it is important to include that at least some people feel that BC/AD are religiously charged, and hence prefer BCE/CE. As stated below, I am not happy with the current version as it implies that CE is only used in "interfaith" dialog. I would agree that this is being blown out of proportion, but it was jguk's incessant revert warring that started it. Sortan 19:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

He's obviously highly critical of CE, but he's using the talk page (which CDThieme, who reverted both me and him, has not yet done). He complained about a weasely worded "interfaith dialogue" sentence, the result of which is that the weasel words have been replaced by a sourced statement. squell 20:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The use of the Common Era system is particularly predominant in academic, historical, and archaeological use

While this sentence may be true if you would append "in the US" to it (I don't know!) it certainly isn't true as a general statement. squell 00:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Note that the version I reverted to did indeed include "in the US", and was simply the version that CDthieme was defending. From the table of contents of the reference Sortan added, I gather that it is an inherently religious book (be it jewish or christian centric, I don't care) which to me makes it immediately suspect to draw any conclusion from. However, if you can cite from that reference to address the points I raised, go ahead. squell 00:37, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The equivalent of the Common Era system is the only one used in China, and CE is widely used even in the UK (despite what jguk would have you believe). To claim that it is only used in the U.S. is misleading. As for the reference, you would only get "inherently religious" books talking about interfaith dialog. The current version by User:Dpbsmith is inadequate as it doesn't cover the reasons some people have for using CE, as well as misleading by implying CE is only used in interfaith dialog. Sortan 22:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Find better source(s), then. But quote authority, don't try to be authority. If what you want to say is widely held to be true, it should not be hard to find someone, somewhere, who says so. (And ditto for opposing views, of course). Dpbsmith (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It is only absolutely necessary to "quote" authority when the facts or opinions are disputed (among other "authorities"). For example, there is no need to "quote authority" when saying the "world is approximately a sphere", where a reference is sufficient. Similarly, saying that some people prefer BCE/CE because of the perceived religious bias of BC/AD is perfectly fine, as well as saying BCE/CE is preferred in interfaith dialog (unless there is a source that claims that BC/AD is preferred). Sortan 19:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

This is incorrect. Wikipedia:Verifiability requires sources to be provided, and I think it's accepted amongst the regular contributors here that ideally everything would be sourced. Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words says that we should avoid using imprecise terms, such as "some". Does "some" mean 0.01% (at which point it is too insignificant to mention) or 99.99% (in which case it can be better worded) or somewhere in between? The idea that we should accept any statement (in this case "BCE/CE is preferred in interfaith dialogue") unless someone can cite a source that supports the exact oppose (here "BC/AD is preferred in interfaith dialogue") is preposterous, jguk 20:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

It may not be absolutely necessary, but it is a good idea and I think will help stabilize this part of the article. This seems to be a part of the article where people are having trouble agreeing on what the proper summary/summaries of authoritative opinion.

Also, this is a difficult area because one can choose to use BCE/CE or BC/AD for a huge variety of reasons, and one can perceive the use in a variety of ways, and I don't know that there are any accurate tabulated statistics about people's motivation for their choice. So I think it's wise to give specific examples of what specific authorities say or think rather than to try to make broad generalizations.

Completely tangentially: I don't think I've ever seen "CE" on a tombstone... has anyone? Dpbsmith (talk) 20:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

This is largely a tempest in a teapot created by a single determined editor. Every source I've seen says "CE" is preferred in interfaith dialog (especially in regards to Judaism). Every source says that CE is preferred by people as an alternative to the perceived religious bias of BC/AD (whether the bias is real or imaginary is up for debate, but that fact that some people think it has a bias is not). I would be very interested to have a source which gives an alternative reason for the growing use of CE, or that BC/AD is preferred in interfaith dialog. These facts aren't disputed anywhere but here, and mostly by one single person, and there is no need to qualify statements that aren't contested. Sortan 21:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Books about religion, and books engaging in religion are two entirely different things. To all other points mdash; this is an article about AD, not CE, so any reference to the latter should be factual and concise, not duplicate Common Era. The current edit is excellent in this regard, and points to two further sources of information. Please let this subject rest now. squell 00:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure which book you're talking about, but neither of the sources I added are "engaging" in religion, but "talking" about it. I also don't think its appropriate to shunt criticism of Anno Domini to the Common Era article. That article deals with the criticism of Common Era, this article should deal with the criticism of Anno Domini. Sortan 19:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Look, there is just one dominant year numbering, and AD and CE are two names for it. Calling it CE is a cognitive choice out of preference or political correctness, to avoid the christian association. So Common Era should host all pro- and contra points (as it does now), while Anno Domini should simply talk about how the dating scheme itself. The two articles shouldn't engage in politics against eachother. squell 20:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. That there are criticisms of Anno Domini and its perceived religious bias (along with the abbreviations AD and BC) is directly related to this article dealing with "Anno Domini". The criticism is not really directly related to Common Era, and saying move it there is no more appropriate than saying move the criticism to Hebrew calendar, or Islamic calendar. Sortan 21:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I made my last comment here before noticing that someone had added the Cunningham and Starr source. Whoever it was, thanks - a quotable reference is just what this discussion needed. I'm not sure how best to segue the reference into the text. Now we have something quotable to latch a comment onto, I have made a short "Common Era" section to discuss this - but I'm not sure it flows as well as it could (and also I think the way the reference was initially added didn't help the flow - but that's a small matter that can be corrected, providing the reference is far more valuable than the cost of fixing that). I'd be grateful if others can help word the new "Common Era" section better though - it may now be demonstrably correct, but it's worded too stiltily, jguk 21:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

(I'll add my comment here as this is where I intended it to go before the edit conflict.) Apologies to other editors for having to edit war to make my edit stick [5], but I do believe it deserves to be considered on its merits rather than to be blindly reverted by CDThieme. Whilst I have been writing this comment, it seems someone's jumped in to protect the page, which wasn't my intention. As noted above, I'm grateful that we now have a quotable source, which in turn allows us to make a specific comment about the issue. We need to make the text flow better, and I believe my edit in a step in the right direction there, though I also believe it is not the last word. Further ideas to improve how the article covers the Common Era designation would be appreciated, jguk 22:06, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

As I've said before, I don't think there's a need to discuss it ad nauseam in this article. Frankly, I don't think that the editing of you, Sortan and CDThieme is going to be productive so I will again ask all three of you to simply stop trying and let editors who manage to use civil edit summaries to take care of this article. squell 22:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't appreciate your tone, nor you claiming authority over who does and does not get to edit this article. Please point me to where I haven't used civil edit summaries, or how adding sources is not "productive". Sortan 22:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I've looked at the previous interactions between you and Jguk, and you don't mix well, all the while calling eachother trolls and/or vandals; the revert-war between CDThieme and Jguk has now resulted in page protection. This article (and Common Era) has other structural problems, yet they are not being addressed. But, since "you don't appreciate my tone", I will keep quiet now. Have a nice day. squell 23:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand... are you saying that "I don't appreciate your tone" is uncivil? If so, I will apologize, and say I didn't intend it that way. It was a reaction to you accusing me of using uncivil edit summaries in this article and claiming that it was not productive to add sources, and finally telling me to stop editing. Sortan 00:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't remember why I have this on my watchlist, but you are all seriously pissing me off, therefore you have won the "page is now protected" sweepstakes. SOLVE YOUR DAMN PROBLEM HERE FIRST. Thanks. Adam Bishop 22:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)