Talk:Assyrian Church of the East

Assyrian, Chaldean, Syrian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic

I doubt if you are right to say that a Chaldean Church in India is the same like the church called Assyrian in other places. It is a few years back that I went thru all this but basically: there are 2 Aramaeic- language church traditions. Syrian-Orthodox (Western Aramaeic) and Assyrian Orthodox (Eastern Aramaeic). Western means: Basically from the old church inside the Roman Empire; Eastern: from the christian tradition east of the the Roman Empire - inside the Sassanid Persian Sphere. The difference was based on the cultural difference between East and West in the huge Aramaeic-Speaking culture area, and also the two separate political spheres - and coming out in doctrinal differences. Inside the Roman area the state tried to take a lot of influence on the doctrinal development of christianity - this was much less in the Sassanid area where Christians were never the official religion, if though also an important one. Thus in the west the aramaeic church joined the socalled "Monophysite" schism (together with Armenians and Egyptians including Ethiopians) - whereas the Church in the East gave refuge and a place to teach to followers of Nestorius when their line of thought was banned in the Roman Areas = the West.

The modern western terms are convenient although they are more or less different transscriptions of the same semitic word: They call themselves something like "siryan" - add the article "al" which is joint with an initial "s" thus making from "al-siryan" >>"as-siryan".

So basically we have Syrian Orthodox (West) and Assyrian Orthodox (East). From each of these there were groups entering into union with Rome. The Roman Catholic Church has been trying to form unions since the great schism with the Greek orthodox Church after 1056. They tried with the Greek Orthodox tradition, with the "monophysite" traditions and also with the Eastern "Assyrian" tradition. They had some success everywhere; sometimes whole dioceses went into union with Rome, sometimes only splinter groups. These make the present Catholic Churches of the oriental rites (That are the Catholics under the pope whose priests do marry).

Now in the Aramaeic Tradition these are mainly three uniate churches: A) The Maronites (from Syrian-Orthodox origin, early separated, complete union with Rome since crusades); B) the Syrian-Catholic Church (from Syrian-Orthodox origin since 18th century) C.) the Chaldean Church (from Assyrian Origin since 16th century)

As far as India is concerned: Indian Old Christianity was connected to the "Assyrian Church" - largely separated from them thru the Portuguese influence in Southern India, then split: partly under Roman-Catholic, partly under Syrian-Orthodox, partly under Assyrian traditions and community. From what I hear Chaldean in India means the Catholic Uniate section of the old Indian Christian tradition (not the later Roman Catholicism like the one founded by Portuguese in Goa)- also called Syro-Malabar Rite *** --Kipala 22:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Mar Shimun XIX

Maybe someone who knows about this could have a look at Mar Shimun XIX Benyamin? This was originally a very POV article copied from somewhere (thought it is claimed that was the original author), that is now included in the talk page. I tried to make a stub out of what was there, but don't know anything about the subject. Rvollmert 11:21, 2004 Aug 22 (UTC)

Split?

Has anybody the slightest idea about the current situation?

It seems to me, that in addition to the

• Holy Apostolic Catholic Church of the East, Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV. Khanania residing in the US

there is an

• Ancient Apostolic Catholic Church of the East, Patriarch Mar Addai II. residing in Iraq

Pjacobi 16:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Just found (and linked) List of Patriarchs of Babylon but it isn't in full agreement with the article. --Pjacobi 16:35, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Number of church members

Can we discuss and agree about the number of church members to state in the article. And perhaps even on the number of Assysrians and a definttion who is included in this number.

• Church members:
  • 400.000 according to www.pro-oriente.at
  • 120.000 in the USA, 300.000 worldwide according to varying sources at www.adherents.com
• Assyrians
  • 3.300.000 according to www.unpo.org

Pjacobi 14:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• Assyrians

• 4-5 million according to
• http://www.aina.org/news/20040620144321.htm
• http://www.assyrianvote.com/vote/assyrian911.htm
• http://www.assyriannation.com/history/History.htm

• Church Members

Im sorry but I cant dont find my sources at the moment but i have them on my mind and I will ask around for the sources. 450.000 Assyrians in the US (Almost all Assyrian Church of the East) 1.000.000 Assyrians in Iraq (700.000 Assyrian Church) 90.000 Assyrians in Sweden (40.000 Assyrian Church) 100.000 Assyrians in Germany (55.000 Assyrian Church) 600.000 Assyrians in Syria (500.000 Assyrian Church) USA.Iraq.Sweden.Germany and Syria together about 1.300.000 so then theres about 3 million more Assyrians and I and many others would say that more or less than half of them belongs to the Assyrian Church of the East.I shall try to get my sources again since my computer crashed but these numbers are mostly true. --Sargon 18:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

That would be five time as much as pro-oriente.at states, which is usually considered a good source. Are we counting different things? Is pro-oriente.at only counting one of the two groups in schism? --Pjacobi 19:36, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Pro Oriente is only counting the members of Mar Dinkha's church. Those who are of Assyrian ethnicity are not necessarily members of that church. The difficulty comes when Assyrian ethnicity is predicated on those who do not themselves claim it. This article is about church membership, so it might be easier to leave the issue of ethnicity for another article. Numbers in Iraq are a political hot-potato at the moment. I don't know of any accurate figures, and Assyrian political groups, trying to grasp some power, may inflate figures to their advantage (such is the way of all politicians). Because of the situation, I would be hesitant to take onboard the figures provided by political groups (I know Sargon would disagree with me): all politicians may not be liars, but they do have ulterior motives. Gareth Hughes 20:33, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes it would be easiest to leave the ethnicity based numbers out of this article. But surely we should state the Mar Dinkha (Chicago) and Mar Addai (Bagdad) numbers. (Did I get the name/base relationship right? I find this always most confusing).

As an aside, adherents.org which is a relatively sober source (but always only compiling from other sources), recently discussed that previous estimates on non-muslim faiths in the middle east may be severely underestimated, discussing the case of Zoroastrianism [1].

Pjacobi 21:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I dont really know..Gareth is a vise man but 400.000 its hard to belive since we are about 4 million Assyrians and the 3 strongest churches are the Assyrian Church.Syriac Orthodox Church and the Chaldean Catholic Church.The Syriac Orthodox Church has about 400.000 members and the Chaldean Catholic church i dont really know how many they have but id guess on 700.000 so together it would be 1.1 million so where would the rest 2.0 - 2.9 million be? The Assyrians dont have a lot of atheist nor muslims so we all must agree that the Assyrian Church of the East have more than 400.000 members or am I wrong Gareth and Pjacobi? And by the way Gareth ive learned that your a smart man and i cant disagree with you on all points but on a few i do so its up to us 3 to decide how many are estimated to the Assyrian Church since some sources are not true.--Sargon 09:39, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

"Nestorianism" in China

Should "Nestorianism in China" be properly called by some other name? Was "Nestorianism" in China actually Nestorianism? --Dpr 03:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

This is a difficult one. Historians, rather than theologians or religious historians, would generally use the word Nestorian to describe the type of Christianity that travelled along the Silk Road. This is especially noted in descriptions of the Nestorians in the service of the Mongol Empire. However, of course, these Nestorians were descendents of the Christians of Persia who had been tarred with that brush by the Roman Christians. The Chinese sometimes called them Persians, and the never called them Assyrians. It may be best to keep the title and add some explanation, as there is not a convenient way of expressing it otherwise. --Gareth Hughes 11:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Mr Highes, by stating that the christian that reach China wer not Assyrian from the Assyrian Church of the East witch were accused of Nestorinsm is the same thing the dictator were and still doing to the Assyrian in the Middle east, Dening them credit what they have done. --67.166.133.88 01:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Can someone post a link to info on the active old parish in China that this page mentions twice? I'm very curious about it, but there is no citation and I have a hard time getting anything on it with Google.

===>I'm posting this at Talk:Assyrian Church of the East and User talk:Amber388 The information about the church in China was added by me, and I got that data from Reverend Father Shlemon Hesiqial of St. George's Church in Chicago, Illinois on Christmas of 2004. Apparently, the church was discovered in 2001, and has been in continuous operation since its founding in the eighth century or so. If you would like more information, I imagine that he can answer all your questions, or direct you to someone who can.

St. George's Church
Reverend Father Shlemon Hesiqial
7201 North Ashland
Chicago, IL 60626
Office: + (1-773) 465-4777
Fax: + (1-773) 465-0776
Source

If I can be of assistance, let me know. -Justin (koavf), talk 20:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Church in Japan?

I've heard rumors that the remains of a very old church were found in Kyoto beneath a Buddist Temple. Can anyone confirm or deny this? If it is true, then the church would have spread all the way to one of the easternmost areas of Asia. Impressive indeed.

Check this out [2] Chaldean 20:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Text available from cleanup elsewhere

In cleaning up the "Orthodox Church" disambiguation page, I removed this paragraph. It seemed like a good paragraph, so I am putting it here in case someone more knowledgable on this topic would like to work it into the article:

In contrast to the Syriac Orthodox Church (part of Oriental Orthodoxy), the Assyrian Church is part of neither Eastern nor Oriental Orthodoxy, having split from the rest of Christianity in the Nestorian Schism of 431 AD, under the accusation that its believers heretically divided Christ into two persons. However, the Church does not characterise itself as Nestorian. It was active in the spread of Christianity to China and to India, where it is known as the Chaldean Syrian Church. Despite its historic importance, it is now a relatively small denomination.

--Iggle 07:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The old Nestorian Church

Could someone please explain to me what happened after the seperation of the Nestorian Church from the rest of the other Churches, who were the people which consisted of the Nestorian Church, wasnt it all of the Christians in today's middleast, Iran and Turkey??? could someone please clarify this to me Thank you.. 124.187.153.75 09:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Not Turkey or Syria, which were part of the Eastern Roman Empire. But Christians in the Persian Empire (Iran, Iraq etc.) and areas further east (such as India, China) were largely in this church. --Henrygb 00:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move of interest

In case anyone here wants to weigh in, Eastern Rite Catholic Churches → Eastern Catholic Churches: See Talk:Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. Fishhead64 07:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Mar

I'm guessing it's an Assyrian or Aramaic word, but can anyone tell us what it means? I can make a guess but I'd rather get more reliable information. Thanks

--Maha Odeh 10:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Rating

I'm new enough to Wikipedia to have no idea how an article moves from Start to B-Class, but I can tell you that, with all due respect to those who have contributed to this article, there is no way that it should have been upgraded to B-Class in its present form.

At a brief reading, the following topics are either unaddressed, grossly incomplete, or inaccurate in their coverage:

- as regards the terminology "Assyrian Orthodox", the fact that there was, briefly, a body by that name associated with the Russian Orthodox Church and consisting of clergy and faithful who separated from the Assyrian Church

- the lawsuit between the Assyrian Church and the Syrian (Syriac) Orthodox Church in the 20th century in regard to the usage "Assyrian"

- the present schism in the Church involving Mar Barwai, as a consequence of statements that he made arising from his role as the Patriarch's chief representative to the Catholic-Assyrian dialogue commission

- the proper styling of the Church's Indian jurisdiction

- the nature of the issues and present status of talks between the Church and the Ancient Church of the East

- the description of the Holy Leaven which fails to describe the premise on which the Sacrament is based in any form that might be understandable to the average reader

- the scope of the Pastoral Agreement between the Catholic and Assyrian Churches

- the scope of the Church's involvement in China in the first millenium - during which it had some rather amazing number of jurisdictions in that country

- the architecture of its temples, the structure of its liturgy (the title of which I don't even remember seeing mentioned), its religious artistry (or lack thereof)

The External Links incorrectly label the official news service site of the Church as its official site - it isn't. The links list also denigrates another site (or, minimally, inserts a non-NPOV) as by an "amateur historian". The site, in fact, belongs to a deacon of the Church was, last I knew, also the webmaster of the Church's official site.

All in all, that doesn't say B-Class to me.

I'll try and offer some text to correct some of this, but it's going to be slow and piecemeal, as I have a major project underway that is occupying most of my spare time right now. Irish Melkite 10:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Questioning the name of the Church

I just so have happened to come across, the first line, which reads, quote: "The Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East", and also at a particular Assyrian Church in Sydney, it stated "The One Holy Apostolic Catholic, Assyrian Church of the East". This is a stark contradiction and in fact I would like to see that very line removed for a number of reasons, and in turn I would like it to be called the Assyrian Church of the East. Is it not the Assyrian Christians that are moving themselves away from the Pope and the Catholic Church, so then how can you turn around and state it is a Holy Apostolic Catholic Church? Furthermore, the One True Holy Apostolic Catholic Church is the Roman Catholic Church, and it just so happens to be that Assyrians are under the impression that they are, quite funny I believe. In addition to this, was it not Mar Bawai who was taken to court because he had the pillar of unity with the Catholic Church, but wait if you are already Catholic what is the need of this pillar? Finally, this article is set in the ORIENTAL ORTHODOXY Wikiproject, and it is called a Catholic Church? It is clearly evident that the name of the Church should be removed, and left as Assyrian Church of the East, because they say they are Catholic, then Orthodox, then say we want to be Catholic, WHICH ONE IS IT? And the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, is not the Assyrian Church of the East as you would have people believe but the Roman Catholic Church.

Andrew.hermiz 01:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, when I was working in Australia earlier this year, I went to an Assyrian Catholic Church of the East, however, when i appearently went inside, it turned out to be an Orthodox Church, and this was evident by seeing no statues at all, and that the priests I was talking to admitted to be Orthodox and were married. This Church appears to be in a Suburb where my cousin live called Gleenfield Park, I am as counfuesed as any one else, both followers of Orthodox and Catholic appeared to be celebrating the Eucharist together, could someone please clarify this to me, as a professor I should not be confused, but this is something I have never come across.

Asm ccc 11:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Professor Marco

I am not an Assyrian, nor a follower of the Assyrian Church, but I too agree that it is seemingly a contradiction on the church's part for the name "Holy Apostolic Church of the East". Is it not blatantly so, that "Apostolic" refers to originating from the apostles, and namely St. Peter, first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church? Therefore, to me, is seems that the Roman Catholic Church can only truly be refered to as apostolic, with adequate, endorsed justification. I have also heard the argument that, perhaps, as there were 12 apostles, another could have created and initiated the Assyrian Church. However, as Apotolic refers to conservative, traditional Catholicism, the initial doctrines and dogmas must be recognised, for example the law of religious chastity, for example. Lastly, it seems pompous that "Professor Marco" seems to believe that professors can never be confused- this is wrong and every one makes blunders, for example, his spelling of the word "confused".

RakiRaki 00:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I second all of the above notions raised. I mean all you have to do is too take a look at the article yourself and you will see a section saying that thre was a schism in the church between Catholic and Orthodox. The only way it can be known as the Apostolic church is if it can be traced to the line of St Peter. Since this has been broken through their Schism. THye cannot be called Apostolic and all references should be removed.

Professor Marco is a very busy man, with al his university work and such and family commitments and i would like to thank him for pointing out the inconsistencies in this article. THE MILJAKINATOR 00:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Their their, please calm down. Obviously you 3 don't know anything about the word Catholic. To clear things up once and for all Catholic#Divergent_usages; "As noted, in addition to the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East all see themselves as the "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" of the Nicene Creed. The holy catholic assyrian church of the east is the offical name of the church. Chaldean 08:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to thank Raki Raki, the Miljakinator and Andrew Hermiz of pointing this out, but dont put to much pressure on these people, not only do they know if they are Catholic or Assyrian they dont know what to call their Church either

"The East-Syrian Church of Persia became in the course of the history known as,, The Church of Persia”; “The Church of the East”; “The Nestorian Church”; “The East-Syrian Church”. Since 1976 its name has been changed in,, The Assyrian Church of the East”." http://www.aramnahrin.org/English/Testimonies_Historians.htm and now they are claiming they are apostolic, I demand the article to be changed as evidence has been provided this article is bias to an extent where it is not longer acceptable, and just to clear something up for Raki Raki i spelled confused correctly, dont teach me how to spell, when you recieve a degree such as mine, you will discover for yourself that spelling is not the most importantly, aspect of getting information over to someone. Professor Marco

Asm ccc 09:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)