Talk:Bain family murders

Untitled

This is not the appropriate place for a general discussion about the case. Please stick purely to the editorial questions at hand.

Judge Callinan's report.

I feel that the paragraph re Judge Callinan's report should be "fleshed out" to some degree, similar to what has been done re Justice Binnie's report. Providing no-one is in disagreement I will post my suggested additions/alterations on here so that other interested parties can discuss them.Mr Maggoo (talk) 22:24, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

OK, This is how I feel that section should read. First I would delete the first paragraph altogether. Start with the second paragraph. Then the next paragraph would read something like this.

In his report Judge Callinan wrote that none of David Bain's contentions with respect to the glasses address the absence of any satisfactory explanation of the presence of the distorted frame with one lens in it that was found in his room. He also found that the noticeable bruising on the side of David Bain's head was quite unexplained and that David had injuries consistent with a fight. David's fingerprints on the rifle looked to have been made by fingers covered in blood and Judge Callinan said was unable to accept Bain supporter Joe Karam's submission that the fingerprints were not in blood nor was he persuaded that blood was rabbit or possum blood. Callinan also said that it was an incontestable fact that David Bain's clothing had the blood of one or more of his siblings on it. He also made the point that in both tone and substance Bain's evidence at the 1995 trial differed from the various statements he made to police officers. Mr Maggoo (talk) 04:41, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/82734851/callinan-report-highlights-issues-in-david-bains-innocence-appeal — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Maggoo (talk • contribs) 04:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mr Maggoo: I would like to point out that your proposed edit did not come to my attention until just now, 2 days after you posted it, because it was auto signed by Sinebot within 2 minutes. The auto signing came to my attention in my watchlist, but I dismissed it as a signing of an old post. It is possible that others such as Melcous also missed it for the same reason. You apparently took the two days of no comments to mean that nobody was opposed to your proposed edit. That is not so, I simply was not aware and didn't comment. Now, I am totally opposed to the edit you proposed and which you just made, which is why I reverted you. Akld guy (talk) 00:07, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Could you please explain why you are opposed to it. I consider that first paragraph to be completely irrelevant and can see no reason why you feel the details I entered are not relevant. Mr Maggoo (talk) 00:41, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

If what I have inserted is not relevant then neither is this relevant in the Binnie report section, so you will not mind if I delete it.

After a year long investigation, Binnie concluded, in a 180-page report,[18] that Dunedin's police had made "egregious errors" and that there were "numerous instances" of investigative ineptitude that led directly to the wrongful conviction. In particular, he described the failure of the Crown to preserve evidence in the murder investigation, by burning down the house, as one of the "extraordinary circumstances" that the Cabinet should take into account.[47] Another was the failure of the police to test Robin’s hands and clothing for residue of firearms discharge.[18]:157 Police also failed to investigate information that Laniet had accused her father of incest and planned to expose him to the rest of the family and failed to follow up on evidence of Robin Bain’s mental instability despite the Detectives Manual specifically instructing police to pursue the issue of motive. They also misled the first jury on where the lens of David's spectacles was found and knowingly gave the jury the wrong time for the switching on of the family computer. Altogether, Binnie identified 12 different mistakes or failings by the police.[48]

Binnie decided the evidence established that "the miscarriage of justice was the direct result of a police investigation characterised by carelessness and lack of due diligence"[49] and wrote: "in what is essentially a circumstantial case, it is noteworthy that the Police chose to exclude the one suspect (Robin) who was alleged to have a plausible if challenged motive, and pursue for 15 years the other suspect (David) for whom they had found no motive whatsoever."[18]:173 He concluded that "on the balance of probabilities" Bain was innocent of the murders in 1994 and should be paid compensation for wrongful conviction and imprisonment.[4]Mr Maggoo (talk) 00:50, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I am not opposed to your "fleshing out" of Callinan's report. What I objected to was the removal of longstanding content that explained the sequence of events in the delivery of the report. Jumping straight to the formal announcement in August 2016 without explanation of the delay from when Callinan was appointed in early 2015 is not appropriate. Akld guy (talk) 01:01, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

OK. Well, in my opinion all that longstanding comment became irrelevant once the report was released. However I won't argue the toss as to whether or not it should be left as is. I take it it is now OK for me to add that paragraph relating to some of Callinan's conclusions.

One further point. I did add to the comment re that givealiitle campaign that Binnie had donated $250. I sort of thought that was relevant but I see my addition has been removed. Reason? Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:37, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I think you should wait for other comment, perhaps from @Melcous: before adding that paragraph. The $250 donation was removed by me and the reason given in the edit summary: "Not in reference cited, nor does it appear on donation page."

A little Tutorial in case you're not aware of how to see edit summaries: go to the article. Click 'View history' at top of article. Scroll down to the relevant entry.

Please properly indent your paragraphs here by typing the same number of colons for each new paragraph that you start. I've done that for you in your previous paragraphs and I'm tired of doing it, especially since I've told you how to do it before. Look at how I've indented these 3 paragraphs with 5 colons each time. Akld guy (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, not interested in your pedantics. So long as the words are spelt correctly and the grammer is basically correct, that's all you need to concern yourself with. As you have already said that you are not opposed to my "fleshing out" of Callinan's report I fail to see why there is any need to wait for another opinion. At this point that page is not balanced.

Re Binnie's donation. I will insert again and link to donation page, though I would have preferred not to have to do that. Mr Maggoo (talk) 04:14, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually , I am a little surprised that anything that Roger Brooking has done is even referred to on that page , given his history with Wikipedia. http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/07/correct_wikipedia_editing.htmlMr Maggoo (talk) 04:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I have once again removed the assertion that Ian Binnie made a $250 donation. This is relevant only if the Ian Binnie was the honourable judge, and there is nothing in the reference to suggest that he was. The donation site accepts donations from people using pseudonyms. Akld guy (talk) 05:23, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

It so happens I emailed givealittle re that donation and they replied that it was legit, that is that is was made by the Canadian Judge and not some impersonator. However I am not going to argue the toss, not all that important , leave it out if that's what you want.

However I do intend to reinsert that piece I have written re Callinan's report unless you can give me a good reason why I should not. I have no wish to be a Wikipedia editor but if Wikipedia editors are not conversant enough with the subject matter , in this case the Bain murders, or more correctly the Bain killings, and more specifically Callinan's report , then I feel obliged to act for the sake of balance. I will wait until tomorrow so as to give you plenty of time to reply. Mr Maggoo (talk) 22:32, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

@Melcous: has not expressed opinion so far, and maybe she will not. I have no objection to "fleshing out" Callinan's report.

Be assured that I'm familiar with the case and have a copy of Callinan's report on my hard drive. I am not, and have never been, connected in any way with any participant in the case, or with any politician. Akld guy (talk) 23:18, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

OK. Well, I will give Melcous another day to reply, she may wish to change the wording slightly. I also have a copy of Callinan's report as well as a copy of his replies to concerns raised by Bain's legal team re his draft report. I am not connected with any participant in the case although I do belong to a group , some of whom believe David Bain is definitely guilty in the same way that Karam believes he is definitely innocent. I myself believe that David Bain is almost certainly guilty but that the possibility exists that his father could have committed suicide , just the same as the possibility exists that if I took a ticket in Lotto tomorrow I would win the big prize. I do not personally know any politician, though I have written to three different Ministers of Justice re the Bain case. I intend to make one or two further edits but I will discuss them on here first, unless they are very minor, like changing a word. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Here are a couple of changes I thought could be made.

Justice Callinan presented a draft report to New Zealand's Justice Minister, Amy Adams, in September 2015.[66][67] On 26 January 2016, Callinan's final report was delivered to Adams,[7] but she did not reveal to media that she had received it. On 18 February 2016, the New Zealand Herald was the first to report that Callinan's report had been delivered to Adams, and that his conclusion, apparently leaked to the Herald, was that David Bain did not meet the threshold of 'innocent beyond reasonable doubt'. After "leaked to the Herald" I would insert [ a leak that was later proved to be erroneous]. Also,I wonder if the words "but she did not reveal to the media that she had received it " have any value. Looks to me as if Wikipedia editors [or at least one editor] are trying to make out that Adams was being sneaky. Mr Maggoo (talk) 01:29, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Here is an addition I would suggest be edited into the "Response from Judith Collins" section to add balance.

Collins said that Binnie went far beyond his mandate and that Robert Fischer QC had identified an "extensive" list of errors. http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/justice-binnies-report-markedly-generous-to-bain-2012121314Mr Maggoo (talk) 02:05, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

I haven't commented because I haven't had time to look at all the sources being cited in detail and I am not someone who follows the Bain case. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as wikipedia is meant to be neutral and only include what has already been reported in reliable sources rather than being edited to push some agenda or other. My concern is with keeping this article as what it is meant to be - a general introduction to and overview of the whole topic, written primarily for people who know nothing about it. And to keep it well-formatted (which is important not "pedantics" - for example, the continued addition of bare links for sources is really unhelpful and it would be great if you could learn to cite sources fully as explained at WP:CS). Here are my initial comments in response to the above discussion:

• The donation should definitely be left out - there is no reliable source about it and as far as I can see no way of obtaining one (emailing the site yourself is original research and not allowed)
• With Callinan's report, fleshing it out is fine to some degree, but it needs to be done in a way that summarises what the sources say neutrally. I also think the detail in your proposed paragraph is excessive (i.e. rehashing specific issues in the case). The point of including this information at this point in the article is not to re-litigate the case or show who is right or wrong, but to summarise the fact that the report has been released, the overall conclusions the report reached, and any notable responses to the report as reported by the secondary sources. So I think there is still work to be done on the paragraph you are proposing before it can be included.
• I agree that there is a problem with the statement that Adams "did not reveal to the media that she had received" the report. It needs a source that actually says that, which there doesn't seem to be. Even if there was, why is this information important enough to be included? Now that the report has been made public, it doesn't really matter who said what about it on what day in the context of an encyclopaedia article about the whole case (NOT a day by day accounting of how everything unfolded)
• The quote from the article about Collins' responses seems fair enough, however I think that whole section could be trimmed down a lot, again it reads as a step by step accounting of how things occurred, which might be appropriate on a website devoted to this case, but in a general encyclopaedia I would suggest a summary from the current perspective would be much more appropriate.
• Oh and regarding the other commenter below, as gadfium says, a blog poll is simply not reliable.
• Cheers, Melcous (talk) 04:16, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for that, Melcous. So are you saying that when I flesh out the Callinan report section I should cite the actual report and not van Beynen's article? That would mean I would have to use Callinan's words and not what might be an interpretation of them. I wouldn't have a problem with that. Mr Maggoo (talk) 05:18, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

No, just to be clear, Callinan's report is the primary source. What you are looking for on wikipedia is reliable, secondary sources that you can cite. So for example from the source mentioned above, I'd think something like "Callinan's report raised doubts about Bain's account of events, finding that the evidence provided by his defence failed to reach the threshold of proving he was innocent on the balance of probabilities." would be one way of summarising the key point of that article. Melcous (talk) 06:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree that what you have written summarises the key point and I have no problem with that except for the fact that the section relating to Binnie's report does not cover just the key point. There is what I would call a lot of "waffle" in that section.

So for balance I would suggest that either much of the "waffle" in the Binnie report section is deleted so that just the key points are referred to [maybe just delete everything but the last paragraph] or else I be allowed to more or less add what I have already suggested. I have made some deletions in the Callinan report section to remove some of the "waffle". Mr Maggoo (talk) 22:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That removal is good, creating more space for "fleshing out" Callinan's report, over which I have some serious concerns too. Akld guy (talk) 22:57, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

This is an excerpt from the Binnie report section:
After a year long investigation, Binnie concluded, in a 180-page report,[17] that Dunedin's police had made "egregious errors" and that there were "numerous instances" of investigative ineptitude that led directly to the wrongful conviction. In particular, he described the failure of the Crown to preserve evidence in the murder investigation, by burning down the house, as one of the "extraordinary circumstances" that the Cabinet should take into account. First of all , all the evidence the police needed was removed from the house , and second , it was not the police that burnt down the house. Once the police had concluded the scene examination and removed all the evidence they needed, such as bloody door jambs , etc., the house was handed back to the trustees and it was their decision, in consultation with David Bain , to burn the house down. Mr Maggoo (talk) 22:52, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

I have just noticed that the misinformation re the burning down of the house is on the Wikipedia page relating to Joe Karam.

However I have no intention in editing that page, editing one page is enough for me.

According to media commentator Paul Holmes, Karam was appalled at the way the family, the Police and the Fire Service arranged to burn the Bain house down.[10]

The problem with misinformation is that once it is reported by media hacks who have no real knowledge of events it spreads like wildfire. The only place I can find that gives the correct version of events is the 1997 Police Complaints Authority Report on the Bain case and unfortunately that report cannot be cited as it was never downloaded on to the internet. I have referred to it in my book, but I am not allowed to cite my book as a reference. Mr Maggoo (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

A Eureka moment. I have found a reference to the Trustees authorising the burning down of the house in Robert Fischer's report.

8.7. Justice Binnie's statement, at paragraph [57]. that the Police "authorised" the burning down of 65 Every Street - it appears that the decision to burn the house was made by the Bain family which Mr Bain apparently consented to.Mr Maggoo (talk) 00:55, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

OK. If no-one has any objections I will delete all but the last paragraph in the Binnie Report section as per my earlier suggestion. I mean readers don't need to be told how good a singer David Bain thought he was [ Many of those that heard him sing reckon he was no better than average ] nor does anyone need to know he had a couple of teeth knocked out when he was in jail. And the second paragraph is citing media reports that are not correct.Mr Maggoo (talk) 22:09, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I object. The reader will make up his/her mind as to whether that was relevant or not. It is longstanding content that no other person has objected to. You need to show much better reasons for deletion than WP:DONTLIKE. You originally came here with the stated intention of "fleshing out" the Callinan report, apparently desiring to balance it with the content of the Binnie report. I have no objection to your doing so. What I do object to is that you now appear to be about to diminish the effect of Binnie's report, presumably before intensifying the impact of the Callinan Report. You are once again displaying a disturbing lack of balance, possibly indicating that you are closely involved with the authorities which caused Bain to be incarcerated. Akld guy (talk) 23:13, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I seem to be going round in circles. My stated intention was to flesh out the Callinan's report section , more or less in the same way as the Binnie report section has been fleshed out, but Melcous was not happy about that. The way I see it either I go ahead and do what I originally suggested and leave the Binnie report section as is, or I do what Melcous has suggested, in which case some of the Binnie report section would need to be deleted so as to provide balance to the article. Wikipedia should not be seen to be lending more weight to Binnie's report than Callinan's report. So it's either or. My preference would be to flesh out Callinan's report as per my original suggestion and leave it at that and that is what I now intend to do. Should anyone delete part of my edit then I will be left with no alternative but to delete part of the Binnie report section for balance. I object to the suggestion that I am closely involved with the authorities that caused Bain to be incarcerated. Up until the retrial I had not followed the case apart from reading one book on the subject. I was gobsmacked by the retrial verdict and that is when I decided to become involved.

Reading the two reports and trying not to be biased I would say that Callinan was able to get to the nub of the matter by concentrating on the evidence whereas Binnie concentrated on perceived errors in the police investigation. Binnie's report was full of errors and incorrect assumptions. And some of those errors and incorrect assumptions have been repeated on Wikipedia, I might add. By rights they should be edited out, but , oh no, no-one is allowed to do that. I have found very few errors in Callinan's report, although, to be fair, he was given the opportunity to correct any errors he made in his draft report before presenting his final report.Mr Maggoo (talk) 03:00, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Nowhere above does Melcous suggest that some of the Binnie report section should be deleted. She did suggest that Ms Collins' response to Binnie's report "could be trimmed down a lot", but that is in an entirely different section. I suggest you do your "fleshing out" of Callinan. Then it can be debated (hopefully by others too) whether the balance is right and whether the Binnie section needs re-evaluating. I encourage others to come on board and involve themselves. Akld guy (talk) 05:10, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

The reason I suggested Binnie's report should be trimmed down was because Melcous said she thought the detail in my proposed paragraph was excessive as per this excerpt[I also think the detail in your proposed paragraph is excessive} I was just making the point that if my detail was excessive then so was the detail in the Binnie report section excessive. Now we have got that sorted I will go ahead and do what I first suggested I would do and flesh out the Callinan report section.Mr Maggoo (talk) 21:44, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Censorship is alive and well at wikipedia. outdated and unreliable left-wing media poll results by uninformed respondents is shown - while a recent poll from whaleoil, after the Callinan report, to provide balance, which shows 86% of informed respondents now believe david is guilty, is quickly removed. censorship belongs in tyranny's - not the free world. DiscoStuart (talk) 10:46, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Media polls are conducted by professional polling companies and are generally considered reliable. Polls on blogs are not.-gadfium 21:36, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

gadfium. Couldn't agree more. But I doubt you will see another poll on Bain's compensation conducted by a professional polling company for the following reasons. One, the fact that Bain accepted that ex gratia payment means the matter is now closed and two, I believe that were there to be another poll it would show that the majority would vote against Bain receiving compensation. If one reads blogs such as Kiwiblog and message boards such as the Trade Me message boards it appears the worm has turned. More people are becoming informed about the subject and are now able to see through all the smoke and mirrors put up by Bain's defence team.Mr Maggoo (talk) 04:46, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Your speculations on what might be are not suitable for the article, or appropriate on the talk page.-gadfium 06:12, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

And stop using this Talk page as a soapbox. Akld guy (talk) 06:52, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I resent being accused of using this talk page as a soapbox. Polls such as the ones relating to whether or not Bain should receive compensation are only called for by the media to create publicity. So that while the Poll section on the main page of the article is correct as it stands it no longer reflects the true position because no professional poll has been requested recently. As an example. Mike Hosking has for some time virtually demanded that Bain be paid compensation. The last time he did that was in February this year and he asked for readers to vote. When the votes were counted the result was 60/40 against Bain receiving compensation. Since then we have not heard a peep out of Hosking re Bain's compensation. Nor will there be any more professional polls on the subject.Mr Maggoo (talk) 21:57, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I had fleshed out the Callinan report section as agreed and now I see someone has deleted that without discussing it on this page. I have reinserted that edit. Very few editors appear to looking at this talk page now so I see no sense in waiting for others to discuss the issue. I intend to add "The former judge was not nearly so scathing of the Police investigation as Justice Binnie was. He said that tests, if available , might just as likely to be inculpatory of Bain as exculpatory . Callinan said he found the incest evidence unreliable and described Laniet as a fabulist". If anyone objects to that addition please let me know their reason. The article I am citing appeared in at least two major newspapers.

In his report Judge Callinan wrote that none of David Bain's contentions with respect to the glasses address the absence of any satisfactory explanation of the presence of the distorted frame with one lens in it that was found in his room. He also found that the noticeable bruising on the side of David Bain's head was quite unexplained and that David had injuries consistent with a fight. David's fingerprints on the rifle looked to have been made by fingers covered in blood and Judge Callinan said was unable to accept Bain supporter Joe Karam's submission that the fingerprints were not in blood nor was he persuaded that blood was rabbit or possum blood. Callinan also said that it was an incontestable fact that David Bain's clothing had the blood of one or more of his siblings on it. He also made the point that in both tone and substance Bain's evidence at the 1995 trial differed from the various statements he made to police officers. Mr Maggoo (talk) 04:41, 25 August 2016 (UTC) Mr Maggoo (talk) 03:00, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm happy with what you added and readded, except that the bruising on David Bain's head was explained, but not to Callinan's satisfaction. It's disingenuous to say that it was "quite unexplained", so I've made clear that Callinan was not satisfied with the explanation. Akld guy (talk) 06:52, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mr Maggoo: I find it very difficult to follow your posts and timestamps above, but if when you say "someone has deleted that without discussing it on this page" you are referring to my edit here I gave my reasons for deleting in the edit summary. As you have been referred to before, WP:BRD puts the onus on you as the person who wants to add something to the article to discuss and get consensus, not on the person deleting to discuss it here first. As far as I can follow, you said here that you would "flesh it out" but only added your proposed text here after you had inserted it in the article (and I had deleted it, and you restored it). As I said in the edit summary, I strongly think that kind of content is unnecessary detail at this point in the article, and ends up attempting to 're-litigate' the case. This is compounded as has now happened when another editor thinks the wording is not quite right and adds a qualification as @Akld guy: has done, and the likelihood is that we will be back where we were a few months ago with people editing and re-editing to make sure the details are not being 'spun' in a way they disagree with. People who are as interested in this case as you guys are can follow the links in the references and read more if they want to. A wikipedia article is supposed to be for the average reader with no special knowledge of the topic, and thus doesn't require this level of detail. To restate what I said in my edit summary, in my opinion, the section on the report should focus on the fact that it has been handed down, its overall conclusion, and any notable responses to it, rather than re-hash the details of the case. Melcous (talk) 09:25, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm perplexed by Melcous' comments. I have no doubt that your "average reader with no special knowledge of the topic" would be interested in the salient points of Callinan's report and how he came to a conclusion that was diametrically different to that of Binnie. If the just-added "fleshing out" is removed, we are left with an analysis of Binnie's decision, but nothing telling readers why Callinan reached the conclusion that he did. Either we remove most of Binnie and the just-added fleshing out and leave the reader to search for analysis elsewhere, or we proceed to get the fleshing out to an acceptable standard.

On the possibility of heavily editing Binnie: I'm well aware that the Binnie section appeals on an emotive level and there are those who don't like it on that basis. However, those emotive details, such as the alleged assault on Bain in prison, the alleged torture with lights on, and the alleged loss of a singing career, tell us that Binnie, after reaching a decision that Bain was innocent on the balance of probabilities, judged that he deserved compensation on the basis that he had been "the victim of exceptional circumstances", thus meeting the requirement of the law. Therefore, I'm opposed to watering down Binnie by heavily editing it. Disclaimer: I believe I have never contributed content to that section, apart from possible grammar/typo corrections.

On "re-litigate": Our pursuit towards an acceptable article should not be set aside because tensions between editors are likely to resurface. Editors should step aside if that becomes a problem. Or did I misinterpret what Melcous meant? Akld guy (talk) 19:33, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

OK. I accept that Callinan was probably being disingenuous when he used the words "quite unexplained" because the defence did actually put forward an explanation. Callinan didn't accept that explanation because he said Bain did not complain at that time about his head hitting anything and that he had complained previous to that incident that he had a headache. All I will do now is add what I said I would add. So far as the Binnie report section is concerned, it was never my original intention to edit it, but I felt that if my "fleshing out" of the Callinan report section was not going to be allowed then some of the Binnie report section should be deleted so as to balance the article. Providing that page is left as it stands at this point of time I would consider the article to be reasonably well balanced and that no further editing is necessary. . reMr Maggoo (talk) 21:12, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Joe Karam

The intro reads: Bain's case was taken up by businessman and former All Black, Joe Karam. After his name I added "who believed that David was innocent." I am amazed that these words has been removed by three different editors. Karam fought for 13 years to prove David was innocent. He wrote four books about it.

• The first was called David & Goliath: the Bain family murders. It was reviewed on Crime.co.nz where the reviewer wrote: "There is no doubt that Karam believes in David Bain's innocence."
• The second was called Bain and Beyond. A reviewer wrote: "Joe Karam goes out of his way to try and prove David's innocence"
• The third was called: 'Innocent!: seven critical flaws in the conviction of David Bain. The title makes it clear that Karam thinks David was innocent.
• The fourth was called Trial by Ambush. A reviewer wrote: "The conclusion of Karam's book supports a compensation claim, considering that David Bain was and is innocent..."

David was interviewed by TV3 (screened) on Sunday 4 March 2012, 7.30pm, TV3. A reviewer wrote: "Controversy continues as Joe Karam and David Bain seek to prove his innocence."

In this article in the NZ Herald, Karam's inner voice defines the man, the author interviewed Karam and wrote: "The same doggedness, the same sceptical attitude towards authority, characterise the fight, which he says is far from over, to prove the innocence of convicted murderer David Bain."

The fact that Karam thought David was innocent is so well documented, it should not need to be discussed on this page. The deleted words should be reinstated. Histrange (talk) 05:32, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

You do not know what Karam believes. He might have believed, and might still believe, that Bain is guilty but deserved to be found innocent because a miscarriage of justice occurred. In a case where you believe a miscarriage of justice has occurred, you can only press for a not guilty verdict. You cannot argue your case while saying "I want him to be found innocent because a miscarriage of justice occurred, but I believe he's guilty." That would be a crazy tactic. So defence attorneys always have to proceed with their public face proclaiming "This person is innocent", even when they know that is not the case. If you can find a quote of Karam saying that he believes DB is innocent, maybe we can re-insert it. Akld guy (talk) 07:31, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I have done much better than find a quote. I found a whole book Karam wrote called Innocent!: seven critical flaws in the conviction of David Bain. Histrange (talk) 18:54, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

The fact that a book title uses the word innocent does not mean the author believes the person to be innocent. As I said above, the defence has one option and one option only: claim innocence in order to establish that a miscarriage of justice occurred, despite what members of the defence might actually believe. Akld guy (talk) 20:23, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

You said I "do not know what Karam believes." Neither do you. You asked me to provide a quote. I did. I provided four books by Karam including one where he says Bain is innocent in the title. The fact that the book, including the title, was written by Karam and uses the word 'innocent' clearly means that Karam believes David to be innocent. To argue otherwise is churlish.

It is not the role of editors on Wikipedia to take what people have said and place their own interpretation on it - which is what you are doing. Wikipedia simply reports what people have done and said (using reliable sources). Joe Karam has clearly said that David is innocent and I have provided an extremely reliable source - his own book. This is what you asked me to do and that's what I have done. I think you need to let this go. Histrange (talk) 21:45, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I have not in any way said that Karam believes, or believed, that DB was guilty. I have illustrated how defence attorneys are obliged to present a not guilty or innocent stance because that is the only option available to them. Nobody knows what Karam believed when he took up the case, which is the point where you want to add the words "who believed that David was innocent." If you can find a quote from that time period (circa 1996, when Karam first got involved) saying that he believed Bain innocent, those words can be added. Now, a person can change their mind in 20 years. What Karam believed then, may not be what he believed in 2001 or 2007 or today. The onus is on you to find a reference from circa 1996 saying what Karam believed. Not from 2007, not from 2009, not from yesterday. Akld guy (talk) 22:16, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Your argument about defence attorneys is irrelevant. Joe Karam is not an attorney. Innocent!: seven critical flaws in the conviction of David Bain was published in 2001. What difference does it make when he came to believe it? But if you are going to be so picky we can change the words to "who came to believe that David was innocent." Would that satisfy you? Histrange (talk) 01:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Joe Karam is by far the most prolific speaker on behalf of the Bain defence team, and it's nit-picking to claim that my illustration of an attorney's stance does not apply to him because he wasn't an attorney. Your suggestion means that the Lead would read "Bain's case was taken up by businessman and former All Black, Joe Karam, who came to believe that David was innocent." You are going to need a compelling quote from Karam himself at some time that that is what he believed. Quoting from the titles of books is not good enough, for the reasons I have already stated, and is in fact WP:SYNTHESIS (drawing a conclusion based on your opinion of what may be implied by the titles). Akld guy (talk) 03:10, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I was asked to comment on this discussion by @Histrange: I would say that these words do not belong in the lead. At the end of the day, they are a statement about someone's opinion/beliefs/state of mind, which we can't assume or extrapolate, regardless of how likely it is due to their actions that they hold this view. Therefore if this statement was to be included at all, it would need a reliable source actually stating that that view was held by that person at that time. And therefore, even there was such a source, and then consensus to include that statement, I'd still suggest it would belong in the body of the article, rather than in the lead. Cheers, Melcous (talk) 22:10, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The title of the book is Innocent!: seven critical flaws in the conviction of David Bain. The word 'innocent' in the title comes straight from the horse's mouth - ie Karam's. If you quote someone else claiming what Karam said, such a source would clearly be less reliable than what Karam said himself. Therefore there is no assumption or extrapolation involved in quoting Karam's own book title. Histrange (talk) 06:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Here is a quote from someone who reviewed Joe Karam's first book, David and Goliath: The Bain Family Murders published in 1997: "A good book for anyone interested in the David Bain case. Though I didn't agree in the slightest with Karam's conclusions that it is certain that Bain is innocent." Histrange (talk) 07:03, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Here's another source who thinks David Bain is Guilty. He says: "Lets go to the heart of Joe Karam's assertion that Bain is innocent". What more do you need? Histrange (talk) 07:42, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Since no one disagreed with my last points, it appears you now accept that Karam's books are a reliable source on what Karam thinks or believes (which seems totally obvious). I will give it another few days before restoring the wording that has been in dispute into the article, but "if you disagree, the onus is on you to say so". See WP:Silence. Histrange (talk) 21:10, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

If you restore the wording, you will be going against consensus and will be edit warring. You have been given the valid reason that nobody knows what Karam believed or now believes. Even though book titles and reviewers' comments seem to indicate that he held a particular view, nobody knows whether he believed DB was innocent, or whether he sought to right a miscarriage of justice and on that basis alone was obliged to press for a not guilty verdict. You have already been told that, and your quoting of WP:Silence is misguided, since we are not obliged to argue with you on the same points over and over again. Akld guy (talk) 22:56, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

You have not given a valid reason. Everyone knows what Karam believes - and I have provided numerous sources proving what he believes. You have been told that over and over again but for some reason, you seem to be unable to accept it. You seem to have a problem following the wikipedia rules about reliable sources - which makes you the one who is edit warring. Histrange (talk) 05:25, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

As User: Akld guy has said, this is not a case of WP:Silence. You have asked for opinions, we have given them, and thus there is consensus not to include the additional wording. We understand your reasons, we just do not think they are valid. Continuing to repeat them with additional sources (which, by the way, as a blog and a review both fail WP:UGC) does not change that. Please leave it be. Melcous (talk) 05:37, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Neither of you has been able to make a case explaining why you think Karam's books are not a reliable source on what Karam thinks or believes. And of course you can't because there can be no better source for what Karam believes than his own books. I have posted this issue on the dispute resolution board.Histrange (talk) 08:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I think multiple reasons have been given for not including this content in the lead, but just to recap:

#1 I don't believe it is necessary; the fact he took up the case can speak for itself (particularly in light of the history of editing on this article, which you may not be aware of, where one editor has added a comment that then leads to another editor adding a qualifying comment to give 'balance' to the 'other side' and this has led to even more edit warring).

#2 If it was to be included, I don't think it belongs in the lead, but you have not proposed an alternative.

#3 The way you want to word this is stating that Karam believed at the time he took up the case that Bain was innocent. This is an opinion and so you would need a reliable source that actually says that, and so far you have not provided one. The title of his book is a conclusion looking back on the whole thing, not a statement of his particular belief at that particular time. (It could also be argued that a book title is just a title, but that's a different topic). The other two sources you have included above are a blog post and a review on goodreads, both of which are WP:UGC and therefore do not meet WP:RS. (And even if they did, the review again states that the is a conclusion Karam reached, not when he reached it; and the blogpost is talking about Karam's assertion in the book, not any belief he held before getting involved in the case)

By the way, you are required to notify people on their talk pages that you have opened a WP:DRN discussion. Cheers, Melcous (talk) 09:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

1) So why are you edit warring with me if you are concerned about such behaviour? You are contributing to the very problem you say you want to prevent.

2) Where the words you have deleted should go is not under discussion. That was a side issue raised by you. But if you think 'who believed that David was innocent' should go in the body (rather than the lead), that shows you find the words acceptable. Why don't you just add them in the body instead of complaining that Karam's book is not an accurate reflection of his beliefs?

3) I did not say "believed at the time he took up the case". Once again that's your spin on it. I offered a compromise wording of "came to believe" but you both rejected that as well.

4) If the title of the book is a 'conclusion' as you call it, then Karam's conclusion is clearly that David is Innocent!: (and there were) seven critical flaws in the conviction of David Bain.'

5) Karam's own books are primary sources - "original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved". ie written by Joe Karam. The other sources are secondary sources. They "contain an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." They are written by people who have read and reviewed Karam's books. They endorse the point that Karam believes Bain to be innocent. They also demonstrate what everyone in New Zealand knows: that Joe Karam fought for 15 years to have David's conviction overturned because he 'came to believe David was innocent'. Histrange (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Karam may have believed Bain to be innocent. On the other hand, he may have fought for 15 years to overturn what he perceived as a miscarriage of justice, which it was, and which was a separate issue to his belief about Bain's guilt or innocence. Can you not get it through your head that fighting to right a judicial wrong does not imply a belief one way or the other? Every single defence attorney has been in cases where they defend their client by claiming Not Guilty, even though they know the accused is guilty. I don't think you're stupid, and by continuing with this nonsense are starting to look like a troll. The fact that Karam appears to have never made a definitive statement about his belief in Bain's innocence should tell you something. Akld guy (talk) 21:34, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

His books are very definitive statements. Perhaps you should read one. Histrange (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I have. Akld guy (talk) 22:14, 18 September 2016 (UTC)