Talk:Conspiracy theory

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Influence of critical theory

This section is almost entirely made up. Latour's paper is a critique of critical theory and he simply uses conspiracy theories to illustrate how structurally similar conspiracy theory arguments are to critical theory arguments. But, there is no claim that critical theory has influenced conspiracy theories. The claims made in this section are not to be found in the paper cited. --I am One of Many (talk) 01:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Further reading

I am wondering if there are any thoughts on reorganizing the "Further reading" section that seems a bit extensive. Should books be grouped separately from journal articles? - Location (talk) 06:22, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits

I don't see what the stuff I have reverted [1] adds but I would like to hear reasons why it belongs. Per WP:BRD I have deleted it, twice. Dbrodbeck (talk) 01:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Hostile, WP:DOREVERT, WP:DONTREVERT. anyhow, it expands on dismissive usage of the phrase, as quoted by the book, which by the way was already used as a resource for another statement in the article. the section is about that, isn't it? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 01:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The statement in question appears to be this: "Michael Parenti argues that Noam Chomsky uses 'conspiracy theory' as a dismissive label to silence political opponents and to deliberately set up for disparagement the perfectly legitimate investigations by linking them to motifs which have come to symbolize the irrationality of conspiracy theories." This article is not about Chomsky or Parenti's view of Chomsky. It doesn't belong here. - Location (talk) 01:26, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Other authors, like Rebecca Moore, are quoted.. so where's the difference? Why is Kennedy example justified, Nixon example justified, and Chomsky's usage for Kennedy investigations not justified? After all, Chomsky is well known expert on linguistics, language, and public discourse and Manufacturing Consent. In fact, Chomwky's opinion has a whole section in this article! Statement could be made shorter though... 178.148.10.191 (talk) 01:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Location has summed up my thoughts nicely. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:02, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Upon close examination I find that Rebecca Moore is selectively quoted (or one might say cherry picked) to make it sound as if she condemns 'conspiracy theory' as an unfair and dismissive label, when she actually goes on to describe at length the paranoid irrational qualities of the vast bulk of conspiracy theories in general. The article does require a brief and reliably-sourced mention of the concept that "conspiracy theory" has occasionally been used unfairly. But this concept should not be given undue weight with selective or out-of-context quotes, especially ones from Michael Parenti. - LuckyLouie (talk) 02:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

If you include sources only from 'institutional view' supporters, you will never get a source for dismissive usage, will you? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

See WP:UNDUE and WP:Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia - LuckyLouie (talk) 03:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It is not WP:UNDUE, on contrary.. Both are notable for their work which is very much relevant to this article. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea of what you mean by "'institutional view' supporters", but there are various academic sources that discuss "conspiracy theory", "conspiracy theorist", and the use of the terms as pejoratives. Moore, in fact, offers a general statement in which she alludes to the use of "conspiracy" or "conspiracy theory" in two different contexts, and one of those contexts is as a pejorative. - Location (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

If Moore uses the term with both connotations, citing only one (as though that were Moore's view) does not comport with WP:NPV. This whole page is tilted to discourage suspicion of politically powerful people, while the politically powerful people themselves accuse everyone else in the world of conspiring against THEM. Just to name a few of the oft-cited anti-power conspiracies appearing regularly in popular media, there are KKKristians, Muslim International This, Muslim Brotherhood That, Antisemitic So-and-sos, Mafia Nostras, Ultra-Whitewing Gunnits, Trade Unionists, the Gun Lobbyists, Central American Drug Gang, LLC., and Anonymous Hackers Inc. It's all a little odd and off-balance. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 07:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You state that the "whole page is tilted to discourage suspicion of politically powerful people, while the politically powerful people themselves accuse everyone else in the world of conspiring against THEM", yet you want to remove an academic source that acknowledges that the term is at times used derogatorily. That is odd. - Location (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Possibly, you are confused between the remarks of different editors. I do not advocate removing any sources. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 07:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Awesome, than he will also reply to my reply instead of you... as I see you don't have one. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 02:04, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with his/her reasoning is all. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

So to argue Location's argument: This article is not about Chomsky or Parenti's view of Chomsky. It appears this article does have Chomsky's view on 'conspiracy theory', and views of other authors of people using 'conspiracy theory', and yet, somehow it should not have view of an author i provided on Chomsky's usage of 'conspiracy theory'!? Does this appear to be arbitrary and cherry picking? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 02:09, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The view that "conspiracy theory" is used dismissively as a pejorative is not unique to Parenti's or his view of Chomsky. Inserting that statement in the middle of a discussion about its use as a pejorative is not necessary. The reader is left to wonder why the article is switches gears to talk about Parenti's views of Chomsky, then switches back to discuss the pejorative use of the term. In other words, the insertion of that material is what is arbitrary. - Location (talk) 02:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This statement is not only about its pejorative usage, but about its deliberate use to dismiss political opponents, which is another and stronger usage. It expands on Rebeca's view, and also is relevant as later section talks about Chomsky's view. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

And how is that unique to Chomsky (e.g. [2])? A more thorough discussion of that point can be found in various academic sources (e.g. [3]). One other thing. You wrote:

"Michael Parenti argues that Noam Chomsky uses 'conspiracy theory' as a dismissive label to silence political opponents and to deliberately set up for disparagement the perfectly legitimate investigations by linking them to motifs which have come to symbolize the irrationality of conspiracy theories."

And this is what Byford wrote:

"Parenti argued that Chomsky uses 'conspiracy theory' as a dismissive label to silence political opponents, and that he deliberately sets up for disparagement the perfectly legitimate investigations into the plot to assassinate Kennedy by linking them to motifs which have come to symbolize the irrationality of conspiracy theories."

This is both a copyright violation and a misrepresentation of the original quote. - Location (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I wrote above statement should be even shorter.. not a copyright violation as it is not under quotes, and also not a misrepresentation, as JFK was mentioned in previous sentence. It is not unique to Chomsky, but Chomsky is renowned scholar, Hillary Clinton is just a (lying) polititian. Parenti seems to be just as academic as Coady, judging by google scholar citations. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:48, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

First, not using quotation marks for copied material is still a copyright violation. Dropping a phrase from the quotation only misrepresents the quote; it doesn't mean it's not a copyright violation. Second, if you truly wish to make the point that "conspiracy theory" is used to dismiss political opponents (not just Chomsky), then Coady or some other academic source would be a much better source. - Location (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Section currently writes: ... in the aftermath of the assassination of US President John F. Kennedy, it has acquired a derogatory meaning,.. and somehow you think citing an example of the reason why that specific conspiracy theory is used in derogatory way is irrelevant? I don't understand why you think Michael Parenti is not a scholar? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 11:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, we have a reliable secondary source (Byford) that shows there is at least some independent awareness of Parenti's "I believe JFK was killed by a government conspiracy so don't dismiss all conspiracy theories" assertion [4]....but only as part of a larger discussion by Byford regarding the epistemic threshold between real and bogus conspiracies. Extracting only Parenti's POV from Byford's narrative would be misrepresenting the source. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:37, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Here's another one [5] but not sure why it would be any more valid than above? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 10:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Who has made the argument that it would be less valid? I cannot access the full article, but it appears to be written by two academics at Boise State. - Location (talk) 16:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This dissertation has a good list of resources at the end, grouped by official vs 'conspiracy theory' view.. not that those articles lack resources.. they have hundreds of them!. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 11:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Wait. Are we trying to use this article as a platform for discussing the JFK assassination? - Location (talk) 16:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

nope, there's separate article for that. JFK was onset of term usage, and that's why it is mentioned in the article.. you were mentioning other scholars, i thought i found a decent resource.. 89.216.22.102 (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Not usable here, though. Guy (Help!) 22:29, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

This RS seems to have the credentials. What is your objection, Guy? Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 23:21, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I am sure opponents have double-checked every statement in the article the way they are scrutinizing the one I proposed. :) 178.148.10.191 (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I will admit that I stopped reading after the first sentence: "Despite growing evidence to the contrary over the last fifty years, the mainstream media in America have stubbornly clung to the Warren Commission’s conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, assassinated President John F. Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963, and was himself murdered there two days later by Jack Ruby, who also was acting alone." - Location (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC) - Location (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I know how it is. The soul simply revolts at such heresy. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 00:39, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yep, conspiracies are only in our heads. I stopped reading after in a Central Intelligence Agency “benign cover-up” .. no way CIA would cover up anything.. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 00:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Getting back to the article, we should not be adding material that's sympathetic to the fringe backlash against the use of the term "conspiracy theory". - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks for the link, it is very informative, especially the video! I wondered why people here resist to alternative info, maybe they are subscribers to NSA checks as well :P But wait, are you opposing global research as a source (nobody provided it) or Cass Sunstein as a credible author ? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 08:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The question here is definition. Do you call such sources "fringe" because they lack credentials, or are they "fringe" because they oppose the Comintern Pentagon? Please explain. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 02:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I admit I was puzzled by what JFK and the CIA have to do with conspiracy theory as a term -- until I read the link, which makes it clear that fringers believe the CIA launched a program to discredit conspiracy theorists after the JFK assassination by actively demeaning the phrase "conspiracy theory" with the help of mainstream media, corrupt politicians, etc. I don't think we even need to discuss why stuff such as this qualifies as WP:FRINGE under Wikipedia's editorial policies. - LuckyLouie (talk) 02:09, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you re-read WP:FRINGE. It doesn't suggest what you propose. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 08:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sfarney: The objection is that this is a WP:PRIMARY source, we rarely include dissertations as sources in articles, especially when so many other sources are already cited. Guy (Help!) 13:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me see if I get this right, Sunstein's paper, which by the way supports a 'fringe' view that CT's should be taxed, and similar nonsense, gets the whole paragraph in this article, and yet a common perception among CTer's which I cited is more 'fringe'? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 09:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

No, you did not get it right. The Sunstein/Vermeule article does not support the view that the government should tax those who disseminate conspiracy theories. Their answer is the more nefarious sounding "cognitive infiltration of extremist groups". How the government should respond to conspiracy theories is a legitimate topic of discussion and should be expanded upon. This article certainly does not do it justice. Rather than use a quote that gives weight to the hypothetical responses in the introduction to their discussion about cognitive infiltration, perhaps this article should actually discuss what they had to say about cognitive infiltration.

Regarding the dissertation, I still haven't seen a specific argument for what material you would like to include. Primary sources are sometimes acceptable, but I agree with Guy that Wikipedia usually frowns on dissertations. You could always take this to WP:RSN, but again you will need to reference specific material. - Location (talk) 16:54, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

you didn't read the article for this talk page then. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 17:40, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I have, now stop being so vague. This is not a forum. Are you proposing to remove the material, add to the material, or leave it as is? - Location (talk) 17:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

i didn't link to dissertation for the sake of it, but for the sake of sources it provides on the bottom. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

So there is nothing in particular that you want to cite to the dissertation, but rather you are just pointing out that the dissertation has a list of sources in its bibliography. Is that right? - Location (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

you asked for more sources. I thought the one i provided was enough.. but you keep complaining about its merit just to avoid adding a sentence to the article. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 19:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)