Talk:Environmental effects of bitcoin

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Fresheneesz (talk | contribs) at 17:46, 14 October 2023 (→‎Revert of my edit). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconClimate change C‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Climate change, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Climate change on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Climate changeWikipedia:WikiProject Climate changeTemplate:WikiProject Climate changeClimate change articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
If you are looking for ways to improve this article, we recommend checking out our recommended sources and our style guide
WikiProject iconCryptocurrency C‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Cryptocurrency, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cryptocurrency on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CryptocurrencyWikipedia:WikiProject CryptocurrencyTemplate:WikiProject CryptocurrencyWikiProject Cryptocurrency articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject iconEnergy C‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Energy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Energy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnergyWikipedia:WikiProject EnergyTemplate:WikiProject Energyenergy articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Move

This article was created according to a discussion at the Bitcoin Talk Page by moving some content from the Bitcoin article to this article. For the list of the content's contributors, see the Bitcoin article history.

--Thereisnous (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the ewaste part back to Bitcoin because we cannot leave it out there. As for this article if it should make any sense as a stand-alone article it should 1) give an overview of the discussion in the CC community 2) cite sources that compare the environmental impact of different CCs and 3) explain how policy makers ans political leaders have tackled the environmental impact of CCs (excessive consumption of dirty energy and air pollution etc). CarlFromVienna (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

better coverage

This page was taken from the Bitcoin page, so was all about Bitcoin. I have:

  • broadened intro and added WSJ ref
  • added Bitcoin, mining, etc to headings
  • added section on PoS and other network types
  • moved Chia into section on PoS and other network types
  • standardised on capitalised BitcoinGreyStar456 (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Core theis

Do we have sources that state this?

"The main environmental impact of bitcoin is that it worsens climate change."

Or is this a WP:SYNTH based upon the statement that follows it?: "This is because bitcoin are made using electricity generated by gas-fired and coal-fired power plants."

Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:55, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Almost all sources only mention that environmental impact so I would be very surprised if anyone said that anything else was its main environmental impact. I suspect that they do not say ‘main environmental impact’ because its other environmental impacts are too small nowadays for almost all sources to mention. I am not an American but from what I read I understand the US has very strict controls these days on local pollution from coal power and coal mining. However I will root around a bit more and see if I can find a source which specifically says that GHG is the main environmental impact.
Digression: Having said that I should probably also take a look at Energy in Kazakhstan and polish that up a little in case bitcoin mining becomes more popular there. You think Kazakhstan will be able to import new mining rigs in future? Chidgk1 (talk) 16:21, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I suspected IEA says “ Many of Kazakhstan’s coal-fired power plants are old, inefficient and highly polluting.” Chidgk1 (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just found Talk:Electronic waste in the United States so have asked there how much of a problem bitcoin ewaste is Chidgk1 (talk) 16:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please review the above SYNTH link that I posted. We must comply with this policy. Please see if you can find sources that support above claims. For example 'Bitcoin consumes electricity, bitcoin is mined in Kazakstan, Kazakstan gets electricity from coal, burning coal creates carbon emissions' and therefore we will make the claim that bitcoin creates carbon emissions is classic SYNTH. I dont doubt that there may be sources to support the actual claim, but the sources are required to be put in the article. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What, exactly, is the problem? Are you contesting this claim yourself, or are you saying that it must be sourced because it could hypothetically be contested? Per MOS:LEAD, the lede should be written in more general language than the body of the article. As a summary of the rest of this article, this sentence seems perfectly fine to me. Bitcoin mining, currently, per countless reliable sources, damages the climate. The purpose of the lead isn't to equivocate on exactly how much it damages the climate, or how this will change in the future. Any claims that it doesn't actually damage the climate are WP:FRINGE as they are contesting the academic consensus on climate change. If this is really your position, I would suggest we bring this up with WP:FRINGEN. Grayfell (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If there are many sources to this claim, just add one please. No need to explain why it is missing. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I amended the lead to add local air pollution from coal-fired power and to remove the ranking of the different environmental impacts. I am pretty sure the ewaste is the smallest impact but I don’t have a cite to say so. You guys almost certainly know more about bitcoin than I do so may have some idea about whether the distribution of mining by country will change much next year - if so it would likely change the amount of local air pollution. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article starts with "One environmental impact of bitcoin is that it worsens climate change" but then goes on to discuss e-waste. I dont think e-waste is directly tied to climate change. Maybe the first sentence should be amended to make the article more of a catch all for various environmental issues relating to bitcoin? At least until there is an article about bitcoin e-waste (if it is ever notable enough to warrant an article). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt bitcoin ewaste will ever need its own article. Can you suggest a better first sentence here on the talk page? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Were some of my changes accidentally undone?

Hello @David Gerard

For your change

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Environmental_impact_of_bitcoin&type=revision&diff=1118767404&oldid=1118759461

you commented ‘if we have the academic cite, then we don't need some crypto blog’ and I certainly agree with your comment.

But as well as correctly removing the unneeded cite your change also undid some of my changes such as some of my shortening of the lead - I wonder if that was what you intended? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:41, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my error! I did indeed only mean to remove Cointelegrah - David Gerard (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for quick reply. As a sysadmin are you able to easily redo my changes? If not no probs I will get around to it once I am on hardware which is easier for editing than my current iPad without mouse - hopefully within a week. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
er, not easily, it's too complex to undo and a pile of people have edited after - David Gerard (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah I see I have a ‘restore this version’ link. I have never used it before but I think it will be easier for me to redo the changes by @Jtbobwaysf and @Grayfell than to redo my changes. As I have never asked for the ability to restore an old version I assume you guys all have that power too. So if I screw up sorry and feel free to restore to the version as it is now Chidgk1 (talk) 17:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done - it would be good if you could all check now Chidgk1 (talk) 18:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. Grayfell (talk) 20:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article title should be sentence case

The "B" in the article title should not be capitalized. Per bitcoin, the name 'bitcoin' is typically written with sentence case (similar to the word "dollar" or "scrip" or similar). This article should reflect that, and should be Environmental impact of bitcoin. That name currently redirects to this article.

This doesn't seem like controversial enough change to justify an RFC to me, but maybe there is some objection I haven't thought of. If not, I will post to Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting technical moves.

There is also the related issue that this article is arguably about the 'environmental impact of cryptocurrency' or the 'environmental impact of blockchains', with bitcoin merely being the most prominent example. Grayfell (talk) 09:17, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Moved it to lowercase bitcoin. FunLater (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know there are nowadays no other major cryptocurrencies which use proof of work, so the environmental impact of non-Bitcoin crypto is not notable enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia Chidgk1 (talk) 19:41, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This has nothing to do with this section, which is about sentence case. This is an encyclopedia article, so things which happened in the past, and which still have lasting repercussions, are still encyclopedically significant, per countless sources. Grayfell (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Considerable

Hi Greyfell (talk · contribs), you reverted to re-add "considerable" here which failed verification. Please show where this is coming from. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are you joking? It's coming from the entire article. Most sources currently cited support this. The purpose of the lead is to summarize the body of the article. Grayfell (talk) 19:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. No referenced source uses this term. The term considerable means notably large and really requires a frame of reference to be meaningful. In order to give proper context you need to compare Bitcoin to its closest real world analogue Gold. The CCAF states:
To provide some context, we compared Bitcoin's estimated annualised GHG emissions to those from other industry sectors and activities.
Bitcoin’s closest and most referenced real-world analogue is gold.
https://ccaf.io/cbnsi/cbeci/ghg/comparisons
Nacentaeons (talk) 20:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It should be noted that general practice is not to add citations to an article lede at all. I'm not sure why an exception has been made here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a hidden note at the top of the page saying "As the lead section is excerpted to "Bitcoin" please make sure it is properly cited". That's reasonable, but since this is already explained by template:excerpt at Bitcoin#Environmental effects I think the note does more harm than good at this point. Grayfell (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So does this mean that this cite is not applicable to the statement considerable? If nobody knows why it is there, then it should be removed. Which source says it is considerable btw? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Revert of my edits

I'm about to undo the reversion of my well-sourced edit that was done in this edit. The only reason given is "weasel words", but instead of weasel words being removed, the entire edit was reverted. This is not acceptable behavior. I don't see any attempt to start a discussion about this on the talk page, so I'm starting one now. @User:Greyfell please do not continue edit warring without engaging in discussion on the topic and coming to a consensus. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copying text left on my talk page here below. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:21, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello.
As I'm sure you can guess, the article for Environmental effects of bitcoin is contentious, and the lead is a product of compromise and discussion. Obviously the article's talk page is the place to go into detail, but I don't think calling saying "The environmental effects of bitcoin are highly controversial" is going to work for a few reasons. In addition to WP:WEASEL linked in my edit summary, implying that bitcoin isn't harmful to the environment is a WP:FRINGE position, so 'both sides' should not be presented as equivalent. It's also too vague. I would encourage you to start a discussion on the article's talk page about the other changes you made. Grayfell (talk) 02:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WEASEL does not apply here. It is quite clear that the environmental effects of bitcoin are controversial and that significant sources do not agree. I have provided several such reliable sources in my edit. Furthermore, none of what I wrote implies that bitcoin is not harmful to the environment, however it does state the facts that some significant and reliable sources do not agree with specific claims related to bitcoin's environmental impact. Its ironic you tell me "its also too vague" when you don't even make it clear what "it" you're talking about, and your complaints are incredibly vague as to what words are weasel words and what exactly implies bitcoin isn't harmful to the environment. Please make your arguments more clear and we can discuss. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is and is not "significant" is decided by reliable sources and consensus, not by unreliable sources and suggestive wording about what WP:FRINGE "proponents of bitcoin claim". As I said, presenting both sides as equivalent is misrepresenting what many already-cited sources say about this issue. Grayfell (talk) 02:29, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All the sources in my original edit that you reverted are reliable sources. I have now repeatedly asked you for specifics as to what I have misrepresented and what statements are at issue. If you cannot tell me which are at issue so we can discuss, then we have nothing to discuss. Fresheneesz (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)As explained at WP:BRD, the burden is on you to gain consensus for these changes, and I asked you to start a discussion on your talk page for this reason.
In addition to the issues I mentioned on your talk page, citing unreliable sources like "BTCTimes" for filler language like "proponents of bitcoin dispute this claim as inaccurate" is unacceptable. Per WP:FRINGE, it is not appropriate to 'balance-out' reliable sources with vague, unreliable claims by involved parties. Grayfell (talk) 02:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Grayfell here. Fresheneesz's edit was questionable, and per WP:BRD, reverting it was entirely appropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@GreyFell A discussion on my talk page is not appropriate. The appropriate place for discussion is here on this article's talk page.
You claim WP:FRINGE is relevant here, but I have reliable sources on basically everything I've written there. Your claim of WP:FRINGE sounds to me like original research. If you think my edits have problems, then you need to bring them up specifically. The only specific issues you have brought up is my use of BTCTimes which was not included in the first edit you reverted. Do you have other specific complaints about my edits? @AndyTheGrump your agreement holds little water in consensus decision making unless you describe your reasoning. What specifically is wrong with my edits? Fresheneesz (talk) 02:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong? Per Grayfell, weasel-worded fringe-POV-promoting content citing unreliable sources. And read MOS:LEDE - the lede is supposed to summarise the content of the article body, not introduce material not discussed elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are not being specific which is entirely unhelpful. Read my response to Grayfell. Fresheneesz (talk) 04:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I specifically said Obviously the article's talk page is the place to go into detail. I posted on your talk page as a courtesy, to get the discussion started, with the understanding that this should be continued here.
As for the other problems with you change, here's one additional issue among several: https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector doesn't mention cryptocurrency, so using it here is a WP:SYNTH issue. Specifically, that source was used to introduce a non-neutral comparison as a form of editorializing, as it falsely implies bitcoin has a level of real-world significance comparable to agriculture or steel. (Comparisons of bitcoin's energy consumption to different countries are commonly made by reliable, independent sources, and cryptocurrency and countries can both be seen as financial entities.) Grayfell (talk) 03:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I very much disagree that the statement I added was "non netural" and I disagree that making comparisons of one unit implies comparison of significance. But let's then agree to remove the statement sourced by that ourworldindata.org source. Let's also agree to remove the statement sourced by BTCTimes. If those statements are removed, do you object to any of the other material?
I'd like to note that it is very much bad form to simply revert entire edits because you think this or that small part of the edits is unacceptable. It is quite possible for you to remove line items. Furthermore, it is also bad form to revert edits without being specific as to what's wrong with them. And wikipedia articles do not generally require talk page discussion before an edit takes place, so please don't imply that is how things are done. Fresheneesz (talk) 04:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given your obvious lack of understanding of Wikipedia policies (e.g. where you describe Grayfell's comments regarding WP:FRINGE as 'original research', when WP:OR makes it entirely clear that the policy doesn't apply to talk page discussions), I don't think you are best placed to tell us what is or isn't 'bad form'. WP:BRD, while an essay rather than policy, is widely regarded as best practice when dealing with contested major revisions to articles - and it makes it clear that after the initial edit, and after a single revert, discussion should begin, with the status quo remaining until consensus can be arrived at for any change.
The fundamental issue with your revised lede is that it is based around a false-balance 'critics say' vs 'opponents say' structure, giving undue weight to questionable arguments put forward by involved promotional sources, and presenting arguments from mainstream science as if they are those of motivated 'critics'. That isn't the way the article body is structured - it would violate WP:NPOV to do so - and the lede must summarise the article body. The edit was fundamentally misguided, and demanding in-depth arguments over each and every phrase is inappropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, exactly. It's hard to know where to start with these changes. Above I said the comparison source was "one additional issue among several" because it was one example. Fresheneesz, if you do not understand the problem, providing more examples of that same underlying problem doesn't seem productive. If you have a specific issue with the current wording of the lead, take a look at this talk page's archives to see if it's already been addressed. If not, raise it here, but regardless, neutrality is not served by false balance, and sources will need to be summarized in context, not as factoids. Grayfell (talk) 06:36, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see you providing no evidence that anything other than the 2 items already brought up represent fringe opinions and I see that neither of you in your recent comment brought up any additional problems with what I wrote, and instead you are both simply attacking my character and ability, I'm simply going to address the points you brought up in a new edit. You can then decide to actually bring up specifics or I will simply continue to edit and open an arbitration case if you refuse to cooperatively discuss changes. Your aggressive and explicitly uncooperative behavior and ad hominem engagement is not appropriate. Fresheneesz (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I'd have to suggest that arbitration would be grossly premature. And very likely to backfire on you... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have explained the problems with your edits. You have introduced WP:WEASEL words and non-neutral false equivalence. Additionally, you have misrepresented cited sources. Grayfell (talk) 20:00, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let's discuss this reversion. @AndyTheGrump, it certainly is not a fringe concept that utilizing methane that would be otherwised offgassed is carbon negative. Many sources can be found for this. So what is your primary issue with this, not proper sourcing? Not proper wording? I did not make the claim that bitcoin will be carbon negative, because I don't think speculation is what this article is for. So why are you saying I'm making claims "from venture capitalists engaging in fundraising"? Fresheneesz (talk) 20:57, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

an opinion piece in Forbes, written by a freelance writer "exploring the bitcoin ecosystem. My work has been published by Bitcoin Magazine and Bitcoin News", quoting a venture capitalist seeking funding for a project utilising methane from landfill to mine Bitcoin is an entirely inappropriate source for claim regarding anything being 'carbon neutral or 'carbon negative', as should have been obvious. If you don't want to be reverted, find better sources before making edits. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Forbes' freelance garbage has come up so often it has its own shortcut: WP:FORBESCON. Neither of the other two other sources linked here are usable for this. One is just a recycled press release and the other is a "consultant report" submitted to a government website by Verdant Associates which never once mentions any cryptocurrency or blockchain-based scheme.
But the deeper problem has already been explained several times. Hunting around for sources specifically to dispute the mainstream assessment of this topic, and then presenting those as being of equal significance to more reliable, in-depth sources, is a fundamentally non-neutral approach. Additionally, this includes WP:EDITORIALIZING language based on these cherry-picked sources. Grayfell (talk) 21:22, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per your request, I have made an adjustment to one of your specific edits. The use of "however" is WP:EDITORIALIZING, and attributing this to "the Harvard Business Review" in general misrepresents the authorship of the source. Further, the author of that article, a crypto investor named Nic Carter, is presenting conflicting information here. In one paragraph, he claims "The vast majority of Bitcoin’s energy consumption happens during the mining process. Once coins have been issued, the energy required to validate transactions is minimal."[1] While in a later paragraph he mentions that "Today, miners receive small fees for the transactions that they verify while mining (accounting for around 10% of miner revenue), as well as whatever profit margins they can get when they sell the bitcoins they have mined." The problem should be obvious: Carter is misrepresenting what "mining" means. Miners cannot opt-out of verifying transactions. They are verifying as a function of mining. This is the entire point of the blockchain. The two are treated the same by " journalists and academics" because, by design, they are functionally the same, which Carter is bending over backwards to avoid directly acknowledging.
So when this source is neutrally summarized and attributed, it no longer really adds a lot to the article, but its status as pro-crypto apologetic becomes crystal clear. This reflects the problem with many of these proposed changes, as already explained. Grayfell (talk) 21:54, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realize certain Forbes articles aren't considered good sources. Fair enough.
I do not agree that the use of "However" is editorializing. The page on editorializing mentions that connecting words like that "may imply a relationship where none exists", but the fact of the matter is that the source directly mentions that "this metric" used by "many journalists" is misleading and the ones mentioned are exactly of the type he's talking about. So the use of "however" is indeed supported by the source.
You mentioned the author is presenting conflicting infomation, but the things you quote are not conflicting, but are in fact saying the same thing in two different ways. Mining is a for-profit thing and when X% of the profit comes from the creation of bitcoins and Y% comes from the fees attached to transactions, that's the split of how much mining work is done for each. This is what he means by both of the statements you quoted. Fresheneesz (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are presenting this obscure bitcoin investor's biased and non-expert commentary as a rebuttal to multiple reliable sources. You, as an editor, are using a flimsy source to cast doubt on reliable sources. As has already been discussed, this is a form of false equivalence. The bitcoin investor's point is not valid in this context. The total amount of electricity used divided by the number of transaction explains how inefficient this system is and how much it uses per person. That it also generates more bitcoin is just compounding the problem, and trying to shift focus to how the money is divided-up is sophistry. Grayfell (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In fact the edit we're discussing having been removed was not contradicting or casting doubt on any other source. It simply asserts the obvious fact that burning methane that would otherwise be released is carbon-negative. Your comments mostly don't apply to the specific edit in question. However I already conceded that the source is not reliable. I have found a reliable source that can be used in its place:
Fresheneesz (talk) 16:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since Talk:Bitcoin#LEAD NPOV issues was recent and appeared to have been prompted by a post to reddit, I decided to check and see if that was the case again. I found this post which speaks for itself. Being recruited into an ideological dispute is a form of meatpuppetry. Fresheneesz, please carefully review Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry#Meatpuppetry (as well as WP:CANVASS) and consider how you want to approach this. WP:GAMING the system is inappropriate even if you follow the letter of WP:3RR. Obviously, you should also review WP:COI and WP:CIVIL. Normally that would've gone without saying, but from the comments on that reddit thread it's worth emphasizing. Grayfell (talk) 00:24, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I don't consider anything the crypto-booster-bros on Reddit have to say on this article, or on anything else, even worthy of discussion, and would suggest treating Fresheneesz's contributions on their own (clearly questionable) merits rather than getting sidetracked by unverifiable claims of 'meatpuppetry'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, this isn't unverifiable. The usernames match. Grayfell (talk) 01:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd missed that. Discussions regarding meatpuppetry don't belong here though. Best take it to WP:ANI if you think it is worth it. I can't see real evidence for anything that would count as meatpuppetry by most standards. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, discussing this here isn't particularly productive. Grayfell (talk) 02:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your accusations of meatpuppetry are honestly embarassing. I have been a wikipedia editor for at least as long as you and I have the right to be motivated to edit certain articles by conversations online. Please stop being a wiki-lawyer busy body and just focus on whether the information is well sourced, accurate, and well written. Your discussion of meatpuppetry is really disgusting. You're not assuming good faith, and frankly you're being an unpleasant jerk. Stop it. We could have worked amiably together to fix my edits, but instead you're taking an antagonistic approach. Its not cool GreyFell. Fresheneesz (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you're in any position to accuse anyone else of being antagonistic, and your opinion of my coolness is irrelevant.
The information you have added is shallowly-sourced and is not accurate to those sources you have chosen to cite. The information you've added is also conspicuously incomplete. Your edits have damaged the article regardless of how long you've been an editor.
For several of these problems, you've responded with "I do not agree" or similar, but this isn't enough to actually change consensus. You are clearly already aware of WP:3RR, but repeatedly restoring this false balance is still edit warring. You cannot edit war to add your preferred wording while blowing-off legitimate concerns about the problems this introduces.
Since you just don't agree with broad explanations, I will use yet another example: For Ireland, the source mentions Ireland's electricity use compared to bitcoin's in 2018 (bitcoin's energy usage has increased since then, and no, it doesn't actually matter whether or not some of this is green energy). The source does not compared it to Kansas. Instead, it is contrasting the electricity usage to Kansas's carbon footprint, which is mentioned several paragraphs later. Picking one detail from one paragraph, stripping it from its context while adding your own, and then jumping to a different point later in the source and also stripping that context, is both editorializing and WP:SYNTH.
Comparisons of bitcoin's usage to countries is as a frame-of-reference so people can start to intuitively understand just how much electricity is used. It is not, as should be obvious, a comparison of functionality. If the people of Kansas or Ireland choose pay their power bills with bitcoin, in addition to grinding the network to a standstill for several days, at best, it would also consume dramatically more electricity for no global benefit whatsoever. Sources understand that these comparisons are for scale, and direct comparisons do not make any sense at all.
By cherry-picking a single comparatively obscure source from a single time-point and presenting that as "often compared to" you have used editorializing language to imply that this is a subjective comparison, which further casts doubt on this position. While the specific numbers are disputed and constantly shifting, this is not a subjective comparison, it is not credibly contested that bitcoin mining consumes the same amount of electricity as a country, and that remains true regardless of how "often" it is mentioned. Grayfell (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to focus on your points related to my edits.
> "you've responded with "I do not agree" or similar, but this isn't enough to actually change consensus"
The first time I disagreed, I conceded the point for the moment. The second and most recent time I did so, my assertion of "I do not agree" came with reasoning. Please don't be disingenuous.
> "repeatedly restoring this false balance is still edit warring"
I am addressing the feedback on my edits from you and Andy. This is very clearly not edit warring. The edits are substantially different from the originals.
> "it is contrasting the electricity usage to Kansas's carbon footprint"
Ok, fair point. I have corrected that. I appreciate bringing it up rather than reverting entire edits.
> "that remains true regardless of how "often" it is mentioned"
You well know that we aren't arguing about what is "true" here, but instead what is reported by reliable sources. How often reliable sources report thing is indeed relevant to content writing on wikipedia. We could argue plenty about what is actually true, but this is not the venue for it. Fresheneesz (talk) 16:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've separated out the conversations about each of the edits. Fresheneesz (talk) 17:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Off-grid energy

Let's discuss this edit. You claim that "certain companies" is too vague, and yet if I actually wrote the company referred to in the article you clearly would object to it being a promotion for that company. You can't have it both ways. I can report what's in the source or I can leave it vaugue. But removing the information because of your personal feelings about "promoting" some company on wikipedia is not sufficient reasoning to revert my work there. There are numerous sources that can verify bitcoin mining using off-grid gas that would otherwise be flared or release is being done:

Take your pick. So does the edit need more sources or does it need a wording change? Fresheneesz (talk) 16:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly the best source listed above is the Fortune article (non-paywall archive link here [2]) The one that describes the use of gas that would otherwise be flared to power Bitcoin mining as "a novel but dubious solution". Then explains why it is dubious, and could quite possibly have in negative consequences "...building a new industry around gas leaks creates a financial incentive for maintaining them...Selling gas leaks instead of flaring them could also allow oil majors like Exxon to technically write down their own carbon emissions by shifting responsibility to their new customers, instead of genuinely eliminating the issue..." That's actual thought-out commentary on the Bitcoin-from-flares technology, not just uncritical regurgitation of what the promotors have to say. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While looking for additional sources, I found these:
  • Calma, Justine (4 May 2022). "Why fossil fuel companies see green in Bitcoin mining projects". The Verge. Retrieved 12 October 2023.
  • Carleton, Audrey (17 March 2022). "Inside a Bitcoin Mine at a Natural Gas Well In Texas". Vice. Retrieved 12 October 2023.
  • Jaffe, Mark (29 August 2022). "Oil and gas and cryptocurrency miners are Colorado's new odd couple. And they're making quite a bit of coin". The Colorado Sun. Retrieved 12 October 2023.
The last one adds some interesting context: The stakes in Colorado are different. The state is rich in pipelines to carry away oil and gas, but it also has a ban on flaring, the burning off of natural gas from wells. If an operator can’t connect to a gas pipeline or find some other use for the gas — under state rules — the well must be shut down. In other words, flaring is not an unavoidable necessity, it is a cost-cutting convenience for oil companies, and it is not legal in all places. So these start-ups are, in practice, allowing bitcoin buyers to partially subsidize drilling for oil strictly for financial speculation. Without these subsidies, these wells would either remain untapped, or the gas would have to be put to some other, non-speculative use in the future.
I also found this one, which is not directly related to gas flaring, but seems useful anyway:
Grayfell (talk) 23:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for finding additional sources. All of those sources support the statements made in the edit in question that you removed Grayfell. So how about we add back the edit with those additional sources? You both are speculating on the "dubious" benefit of doing these kinds of things, but all the sources we've collected agree that using uncapturable methane to mine bitcoin is happening, which is all the edit in question said. Fresheneesz (talk) 17:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Energy per transaction

And let's discuss this edit. You removed the bit about reporting on energy usage per transaction being misleading. I can find several other reliable looking sources with similar assertions: 

I would like to reinstate the content with additional sourcing, and perhaps slightly different wording to incorporate the aggregate characterization among these sources. What do you think? Fresheneesz (talk) 16:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't waste people's time with blogs and providers of "paid-content" [3] features. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a self-goal that you attempted to cite Competitive Enterprise Institute, a dark-money climate-change denialist advocacy group for this point. The other sources appear equally bad or cherry-picked. Until you address this false equivalence and cherry-picking problem, as Andy says, this is a waste of time. Grayfell (talk) 20:29, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep your personal attacks to yourself Grayfell. Don't assert that you know what my goals are. And how do you determine what sources are reliable or not? I can find this page that says cei has a low score on factual reporting. But the businessofbusiness.com article is written by Iulia Ciutina who seems like a legitimate writer, and not paid content. Fresheneesz (talk) 17:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Energy consumption inconsistency

The article lede cites the 2023 CBECI revision, while the source cited in the paragraph about mining as an energy-intensive process cites the numbers from 2022. Wouldn't it make more sense to cite the 2023 revision and numbers in both places? 2003:CD:EF1C:6400:D560:A41F:3792:AE7F (talk) 23:46, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Environmental_effects_of_bitcoin&oldid=1180123122"