Talk:Kambojas

Disscuss pl.

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200k of material removed from the article has been deposited at Talk:Kambojas/removed. 03:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Handling citations

As I try to clean up this article, the one thing I am not sure how to handle is the numerous citations. They are sprinkled in within the overall narrative which makes it very difficult to read. Does anyone have a good example of how to do format this best?

Also, there doesn't seem to be an accepted style to present a sanskrit shloka, so I have adapted a style I have found elsewhere and expanded on it. Please comment.

Finally, I may have actually found an error in the first shloka I tried to style. The text of the article states that it is from the Mahabharata, book 12 (Shantiparva) page 207, verses 43 and 44. However, based on http://www.hindunet.org/mahabharata/txt/12.txt, the actual reference seems to be page 200, verses 40 and 41. I have changed the citation accordingly. Would anyone confirm that this is correct please? SpikedZebra 00:23, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• • Thanks SpikedZebra

Actually, there is no error.

The verse number (MBH 12/207/43-44) which you are refereing to I have based it on the Gorakhpore edition of Mahabhara.

You have changed it in accordance with online Critical Edition of Mahabharata.

To be noted here that there are some discrepancies and differences between Gorakhpore Mahabharata and the online Critical edition.

I have mostly relied on verse-references from the Gorakhpore edition.

KLS

P.S.

I'm also thankful to Bluemoose for sectionalizing the article.

Editing & Wikifying the article Kambojas

hello everyone interested in this task - actually here main problem is that the article size is very big than the size desired by wikipedia. A lot of references will have to be made compact. With all the materials avaiolable here a book may be prepared and placed along with the article. The size of the article may accordingly be made more compact, containing all the materials. No doubt, it is a challenging task, if not daunting. We all who are interested in this work must continue to work and exchange views. --Bhadani 16:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

• I'll take a crack at it. Bubamara 15:28, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
  • sorry - I went away for a week and didn't do any work. I'll try to pitch in with the cleanup effort, but it's hard to keep up. Bubamara 00:51, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Clean up

A massive clean up is required - language will have to be made simple and duplicate references and free flow style of presentation will have to be removed. Sections will have to renamed and several other things.... I am trying for one or two smaller sections. In case, any one donot want me to do cleanup in the manner I shall be doing, plz drop a message here. I will stop and step aside. Thanks.--Bhadani 14:27, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Bhadani and other good friends who voted to keep the article, but suggested a clean-up and wittling it down to a reasonable size.

Also I greatly appreciate your and PHG 's efforts in cleaning up the article.

I can cut down the artcle to anysize the Wikians want it and also remove all secondary source references if suggested, but I have suggestion that the pre-clean up full-size article be preserved at some site in the Wiki-domain so that someone interested in full details of Kambojas may have an access to that.

Thanks KLS.

VfD

On May 13, 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Kambojas for a record of the discussion. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 14:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

To All suporters:

I am very thankful to the friends who have expressed interest in this article. This article is indeed based on original research on Kamboj people, and all the information presented here is based on primary sources or else on highly creditable secondary sources. If any reader finds some thing which he/she thinks goes against established history facts, please do write. It should be our endavor to improve this article further. Important thing is that if all vital information about the Kambojas is to be presented here, the article size could be a bit longer. If some friend can creat sub-artcles based on the sections of this article, please go ahead. We would appreciate the initiative.

Thanks again.

KLS

Cleanup request

The references in this article don't have enough context to be useful. They need to be turned into footnotes that give full citations, or at least that use intelligible abbreviations. The talk page also contains a gratuitous amount of information. It should probably be moved to one or more subpages, and someone needs to check whether or not any of it still needs processing of some kind. -- Beland 06:29, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I cleaned up the talk page; the article itself still needs work. -- Beland 03:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Ashoka Column picture removed

This picture was removed because of possible copyright violation. The copyright notice on Wikipedia incorrectly stated that the picture is from buddha101.com and used with the permission of the author of that site. The picture is not on buddha101.com and no permission was given.

Cleanup

It is quite clear from the two V/AfD's that the subject matter of this article is needed in this encyclopedid but it needs a lot of work. It needs a huge ammount of work. What I sugest is that we try to rewrite the article here. What we should do is slowly develop an article that wikipedia readers who do not know anything about this subject will be able to understand. Any objections? Anybody willing to help? Andreww 11:17, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks interesting I will take up the cleaning --Vyzasatya 07:58, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I think we should can the rewrite idea and just go with a major clean of the page. Andreww 09:08, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

This article needs some work. Looks like lot of talk and no work. (no wonder talk page needed formatting too).

• sorted references of Modern kambojas section and placed in References section in the bottom
• some of the sections seems to have disjointed pieces of random Information. I guess bulleted formatting is the way to for those
• Lot of one sentence small paragraphs. Pieced some of those together to make more free flowing logical paragraphs.
• Made a kambojas template to be able to access all sub articles from one place. Think it would be more useful to have in the top right corner. (right now it is in the bottom) what do you think?

--Vyzasatya 03:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I deleted this sentence from physical appearence section. Where do you think this should go?

"During the reign of terror in India (18th/19th century), it was the Kambohs (Kamboj) only who were most trusted by the rich bankers for carrying their cash in the disguise of faqirsTemplate:Mn

--Vyzasatya 03:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It is not obvious where to put that text - I can not see anything of simmilar date. Let's keep it here for the time being and sort that out later. I like the new template (top right) - this is where it belongs. Andreww 09:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I have just been and got all the footnotes so far into the "recomended" template. A pain. I had one left over:

• Template:MnbGlossary of Tribes, p 444; Panjab Castes, p 149; cf: Census Report of India, 1880.

but it looks like it belongs to the removed text above so I'll leve it here. What we need is some proper wiki markup for references and footnotes - then we could write a proper encyclopedia. Andreww 10:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You are right Andrew we need some solution for this. Imagine reorgnizing the notes in order everytime the text in the article gets reorganized. just like # system for numbered lists there should be a markup for notes numbering too. Anyways thanks for sorting out the order for now --Vyzasatya 13:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The method fails to scale to an article of this size... I sugest we inline references to scripture with footnotes for secodary sources. We could then add a footnote for the first apperance of each priamary source saying what it is and what the numbers mean. But that may not be a good solution. More thinking needed. Andreww 10:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Kambojas or Kamboyayes

Dear friends,

The term Kambojayes is used for Aryan people who settled as Scythians in modern Afghanistan and Tajikistan, including parts of the ancient Marakanda(Sogdiana), Margiana (Merv) and maybe as well for Khwarezmia (Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan), Pakistan and North-West India. This people were subordinated in three groups. Their names were Kambuji or Kambojayi, Ashvakan and Kambohs. The Kambujis spoke Avestan language and were located in modern Afghanistan, the Ashvakans spoke something like Vedic (Sanscrit) and later their language developed or picked out an own stock of the indo-iranian group of the indo-iranian languages which are today known as south eastern iranian languages like Shughni, Wakhi and Pashto (Afghanic). This people were unlike their neighbours neither Hindus nor Zarathustrians but Pagans till today. The great Al-Biruni wrote about these people, including Afghans who were one of those people who were not islamized.

the term Kambuji or Kamboja was used and today is used for Persians (Tajiks and Iranians) who spoke in modern Afghanistan the Avestan language. Later some moved to west like the historica Persians of Sistan from the Aratti region (between Iran and Afghanistan) and moved to Pars.

Nuristanis belong to Ashvakans of the Kamboyayes like Afghans and Chitral people and Ormurs while Kambujis(not Kamboyayes!!) of the aryanic Kamboyayes were zoroastrians.

The Kambohs were Hindus or they converted to Hinduism because first they were mithraists like all Aryan people.

Therefore, plz. change or correct some sources here on the article. It is important to make diff. between Ashvakan Kambojayes and the Kambuji Kambojayes or Kambohs. Nuristanis do not belong to Kambujis but to Kamboyayes.

With best Regards --84.59.4.1 14:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Give Evidence in support of your statements

Dear contributor with IP address 84.59.4.1, your statements on Kambuji/Kambojayi, Ashvakan and Kambohs are quite new, confusing and also lack evidence. Please clarify and cite sources in support of your assertions. In future, please also attach your full signatures and not the IP address.

Satbir Singh (talk) 01:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup per MoS

A cleanup is required here. For example, why are there over a dozen citations for one small sentence in the beginning of the second paragraph I'm not sure if it even requires one citation! Cleanup per MoS is needed. Cheers, ask123 16:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Heads Up - Fringe Noticeboard

There is a cadre of know-it-all editors who gadfly about frequent Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, a moderately scary project that, according to the noticeboard's talkpage, prefers to operate as a "private" discussion among self-styled "fringe" experts (one admin in particular) of whether or not all mention of entire subjects should be sent to the memory-hole en masse on grounds of being "fringe"; despite multiple calls for greater transparency, their policy remains not to inform the editors on the article talkpages concerned.

I have been lurking on that page, just waiting for them to stick their heads in way too deep. It appears they have now done so, someone has just proposed all Kambojas-related pages and templates for the usual dissection / merge job, which appears to have started already. They determined it was fringe, simply because none of them have ever heard of it, and they know nothing of the subject, therefore it must be "fringe". The great mass of cited historians and sources on this page suggests to me otherwise, however. Now I will sit back again and lurk to see how you all deal with this neanderthal "I know nothing about this, so it must be deleted as fringe" mentality. Blockinblox (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

so you know all about Kambojas then, eh? Then feel free to help us clean up this mess. I assure you I have heard of Kambojas, I have background knowledge of the field, and I certainly have an interest in transforming this unreadable dump of OR cum literature snippets into something encyclopedic. dab (𒁳) 19:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I responded on my talkpage. I also struckthrough 'gadfly'; after looking it up in the dictionary just now, I see it has a worse meaning than I intended. Sorry, I should be nicer too. Blockinblox (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

no problem. --dab (𒁳) 16:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you 100% Blockinblox. I have noticed this particular poster *live* on the article pages that are related to hinduism., vedas and so called aryan invasion, and make reverts, edits and effectivley shutting down ANY input that is opposed to his POV. Any valid references are completley ignored. Now this poster has no fear telling us that hinduism is far from vedic religion(?) as christianity is from babylonian relgions. Thank you for enlightening us Dab, for we are ignoramuses.

Seriously, what can we do to stop this particular poster from abusing his admin rights? I am new to wiki and not yet familiar with how to go about complaining about him. Ddviticus (talk) 03:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Article scope

This article is supposed to be about the Iron Age tribe. The kingdom is discussed at Kamboja Kingdom. The name itself at Kamboja (name). The tribe's appearance in Sanskrit literature at Kambojas in Indian literature. The modern tribe at Kamboj. All are duly linked. Avoid redundancies. See WP:SS. dab (𒁳) 16:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

some order please

Satbir, please read WP:SS and WP:CFORK. There is a full article on Kambojas in Indian literature. Feel free to develop that. Do not replicate the full topic of "Kambojas in Indian literature" here. The same goes for the other sub-articles of this one. dab (𒁳) 10:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed academic titles as per Wikipedia Manual of Style

I have just been through the article removing the proliferation of titles (in, particular, the massive overuse of "Dr." and "Prof" to describe some writers, while no titles were given to others - some of whom had superior qualifications) as per the "Wikipedia Manual of Style" - see: [1]. In the process I made a number of other small edits - mainly spelling and grammar mistakes.

Also, it seems to me that there are a tremendous number of references - more than anyone could easily check on (even though most of them are from just a few authors). Maybe this could be cut down or condensed somehow??? Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 03:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

To-do list

I added a to-do list, using suggestions already on this talk page. Please discuss. In the meantime, I am starting on the task that I have listed first, i.e. checking that I can find all the sources mentioned by searching in catalogues (COPAC, Library of Congress, Amazon). Itsmejudith (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I have added the references from 2000 onwards to the new section. I have left out any that I could see were recent reprints of much earlier material. I had problems with three sources.

• Rashid, Haroon (2002) History of the Pathans‎, Islamabad. Haroon Rashid. COPAC reference gives Haroon Rashid as the publisher. Is this then a self-published text?

• Singh, S Kirpal (2005) Kambojas Through the Ages. Cannot find it in any catalogue anywhere. Nothing in COPAC, Library of Congress, Amazon or Google.
• Vasisitha, Mehta Dev Mohan, Northern India. Same. Can't find it anywhere.

Of course the books might be hard to find because of translation or transliteration of the titles. Does anybody have any information about them? Do you know whether they were written in English or another language? If nobody can trace where they are available, then I don't think the article can refer to them. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Itsmejudith (talk) 16:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I also would welcome comments on any of the following, which I didn't add to the 1990s references in the bibliography, for the reasons given in the italic headings:

Can't find

• Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, 1990, Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland p 142. Author, article title, volume and series all needed. ISSN: 0035-869x

• Raja Poros, 1990, Publication Bureau, Punjabi University, Patiala. University has a Publications Bureau, with catalogues of English and Punjabi publications, but the links are dead.

Reprints or re-editions of earlier texts

• Chakraberty, Chandra, 1997, Racial Basis of Indian Culture, including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal. Introduction by M.C. Joshi. New Delhi: Aryan Books International. ISBN 8173051100. A reprint of a much earlier text (1920s?)

• Thapar, Romila 1997 [1961] History of India, Vol. I. ISBN 0140138358 ISBN 0140138366 (1990 London: Penguin Books edition)

• Dineschandra Sircar, 1990 [1971], Studies in the Geography of Ancient and Medieval India. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass

• Dutt, Nalinaksha, 1998 [1978], Buddhist Sects in India. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. ISBN 8120804279

• Raychaudhuri, H. C. 1996 [1923], Political History of Ancient India. Revised edition with commentary by B. N. Mukerjee, Bombay, Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195637895

• Erdosy, George, 1995, The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity. Berlin, New York: Walter de Gruyter. ISBN 3110144476

• Singh, Fauja and L. M. Joshi (eds.), 1999 [1972], History of Punjab. Patiala: Department of Punjab Historical Studies, Punjabi University

• Lévi, Sylvain, Jean Przyluski, Jules Bloch, Pre Aryan and Pre Dravidian in India, 1993 [1929], Prabodh Chandra Bagchi (transl.). Asian Educational Services. Or Calcutta: University of Calcutta, 1975.

Possible self-publication

• Koenraad Elst, Linguistic Aspects of the Aryan non-invasion theory, Part I, Published on the author’s website.

Editions of traditional or ancient texts, possibly to treat as primary

• Konow, Sten 1991 [1929], Kharoshthī Inscriptions. New Delhi: Director General, Archaeological Survey of India

• Hewsen, Robert H. (ed.), 1992, Anania Shirakats’i, The geography of Ananias of Širak: Ašxarhac’oyc’, the long and the short recensions. Series: Beihefte zum Tübinger Atlas des Vorderen Orients. Nr. 77. Wiesbaden: Reichert. ISBN 3882264853

• Sharma, Rama Nath (ed.) (1999) The Astadhyayi of Panini, New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal. (6 volumes published 1987 to 2003). ISBN 8121500516

• Beni Madhab Barua, Binayendra Nath Chaudhury etc. Inscriptions of Asoka: Translation and Glossary, 1990 [1946]

Further note

With reference to one of texts questioned above, "Kambojas Through the Ages", I've now seen this[2]. It says that the author was a civil engineer (now presumably retired). He seems to have no qualifications in history, so I doubt whether the book is a suitable source for this article. Would anyone care to make a case? Itsmejudith (talk) 11:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Kirpal Singh Dardi

If one goes through Kirpal Singh Dardi's research book "The Kambojas Through the Ages" dispassionately, one will really wonder if he (Kirpal Singh Dardi) is a Civil Engineer or else a dedicated researcher and historian.

By the way, Damodar Dharmananda Kosambi, an acknowledged Indian historian was a Mathematician and statistician by training but he was also polyglot. He made great original contributions on Ancient Indian History. Does this surprise anybody?

Satbir Singh (talk) 23:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it doesn't surprise me, and I know that respected history books can be written by people who come to the discipline in later life. But we need some objective criteria to go on. We need the date, place of publication and publisher of the book, and (if not English), the language and original title. And details of some reviews in independent publications will help to settle whether it is a well-regarded historical text or not. These criteria apply to all history articles - please refer to the History WikiProject. Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

For some information on "Kamboj Yugan de Aar-paar" (Punjabi) i.e The Kambojas Through the Ages, See Link: [3]. The book was written in Punjabi language, and the references cited in the text are from the most notable scholar community. The reviews for the book appeared in The Tribune published Chandigarh and Hindi newspapers published from Jullundur. The book really contains a well researched information from ancient Sanskrit and Pali texts. It is indeed good work to cite on Kambojas.

Also, i am removing the irrelevant tag unless some specifically points out theinappropriate or misinterpreted citations in the article. Itsmejudith, you do your best to clean-up the article, but if you try to delete any relevant information on the Kambojs, I will sure restore it back.

Satbir Singh (talk) 05:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, so now we have the book's Punjabi title. Please note that we should prioritise English-language sources. We don't yet have a publisher or place of publication. The link you sent and another I found by googling the title raise many questions. The link you sent appears to be an advert for sale of the book, posted by the author. This points to self-publication Wikipedia:V#SELF. But if you can show that it did in fact issue from a mainstream publishing house, that could be cleared up. The other link I found is a reader review praising the book. Unfortunately it is crassly nationalistic in tone, bordering on hate speech. Well, it's only a reader review, but we don't have details of any other reviews. I don't want to put you to too much trouble on this, because I think the easiest thing will be to remove this reference, given that so many scholarly English-language texts are already cited. The final sentence of your post could be construed as threatening, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt at this stage. I believe that tidying up the referencing will allow us to clean up the articles without sinking into a long and fruitless edit war. In order to avoid misunderstanding, I want to make it clear at this point that I am not very familiar with ancient Indian history. That has its good and bad sides. The bad side is that I can't always tell the difference between a minority and a majority point of view. The good side is that I know whether the article makes sense to a non-expert. At the moment, please believe me, it makes no sense at all. It is information overload. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Aha! I have found an earlier book by Dardi in the British Library catalogue.

Dardi, Kirpal Singh, 1936- Title details: Iha kamboja loka : Kamboja dā itihāsaka te sabhiācāraka adhiaina. Published: Jalandhara : Shahira Ūdhama Singha Prakāshana, 1979.

So he was writing on Kambojas (I guess from the Punjabi title) back in 1979. That looks a bit more promising. But we still need to prefer English-language sources. Normally, a historian will publish scholarly articles as much as books. Any of those translated into English, for example? Itsmejudith (talk) 11:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

There were several reviews of these books in news papers in Tribune and some papers published from Jullundur/Punjab. Currently I do not have any reviwe handy with me.

But go ahead with your clean-up efforts. We will see if your cleaned-up version makes better sense than what you deem a messy information-loaded article. But since you admit of not knowing much of the scholarly information available as primary sources on Kambojas, so if you trip somewhere, rest assure I will raise you up.

Cheers!

Satbir Singh (talk) 13:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I hope that was meant to be supportive. You know, you could help out with the clean-up. It is a bit tedious searching for ISBNs. I wonder if I am the only person who finds this article difficult to wade through. I'll go to WikiProject India to see if there are any other views on how it can best be cleaned up. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Taken to WP:RSN

I have started a discussion about this source on the reliable sources noticeboard. Please contribute there. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:48, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Beginning to absorb what is behind this Kamboja-mania exhibited by Satbir, I think we are looking at a number of recent publications by Punjabi authors, probably people of Kamboj families infected by the family-research virus. The WP:SYNTH presented by Satbir appears to eventually boil down to

• S Kirpal Singh, The Kambojas Through the Ages, 2005
• J. L. Kamboj, Ancient Kamboja, People and the Country, 1981

Because of the insane online pushing of these titles (by what I must assume is Satbir's work, or that of his associates; this all smells strongly of WP:COI), it is by now futile to google these titles on the web. Google books doesn't return any hits for either title. Until some sort of positive justification of these titles as WP:RS, we safely can, and should, ignore them, and remove them from article space.

Oh my Gosh, these few F* ignorant self-styled Wikipedia Administrators who are not even remotely conversant with the Kamboj people and their history are overly asserting themselves to be the sole arbitrators and judges on the Kamboj history and are trying to steer the Wikipedia simply by virtue of the fact that they have, by hook or crook, become the self-styled administrators of the Wikipedia!!!!!.

For the sake of these jahl ignorant self-styled adminstrators, the title Prācīna Kamboja, jana aura janapada: "Ancient Kamboja, people and country" by Dr (Prof) J. L. Kamboja of Delhi University is listed in the Google scholar. It is undoubtedly one of the best and exaustively researched book based on ancient Sanskrit/Pali sources and numerous ancient inscriptions. It would be in the fitness of things if these few dorks first spend some time and read this title and become familiar with the basic information on the Kamboj people.

Serious scholars like Dr J. L. Kamboj, Dr M. R. Singh, Dr Vidyallankara, Dr H. C. Raychaudhury, B. N. Mukerjee etc have plodded through numerous ancient literary (Sanskrit/Pali) as well inscriptional sources and presented numerous new and original hither-to unexplored facts on the Kambojas, not previously presented by any other European writers or scholars. But this new factual information on Kamboj is indeed causing serious stomach flue to these self-styled wiki-admministrators since they are themselves virtually jahl and blank about this new information on Kamboj people and therefore want to eliminate it from the public view by the force of sheer majority of the like-minded fellow dorks. Strangely enough, these so-called Wiki-administrators do not want to digest this new and genuine information on the Kambojs simply because it is not found in the titles written in English or French by any European writers..

Come what may, I would keep trying my level best to defeat the nefarious ill-intended designs of these few fanatics and dorks.

Satbir Singh (talk) 04:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. For info, there are two books by Kirpal Singh Dardi cited. There is also the question of how closely these books follow each other, and whether Satbir has plagiarised one or both, by simply translating. We don't have any way of checking. I have some worries about the strategy of taking out references to these books. Hardly ever are these books cited alone. There is always reference to one or more, usually many, earlier texts. These are likely to be the references that Singh and Kamboj cite themselves. So if all we do is remove the Singh and Kamboj refs we still have the same argument, only it has become an original synthesis, sourced only to very old texts. And those old texts are scholarly in their own way, but also a kind of nationalistic history, British Raj divide-and-rule, perhaps even racism in a sense, if not in the worst sense. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

'Hello, if you can not check or verify the information on the Kamboj presented here, then accept it unless you come up with sources which clearly refute the information. Knowledge should be spread nor suppressed or eliminated.

Satbir Singh (talk) 04:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Pakistan Review

There's a reference in the article to Pakistan Review, 1962, and a page number. Pakistan Review is, from what I can ascertain, a prominent and serious publication, although not a scholarly journal of historians. The problem is in this case that we have no article title or author. If an index is available, the page reference might resolve the issue, but I can't find one online. Can anyone help out or suggest how to proceed? Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)