Talk:Macedonian

What the hell is to dispute here? It's just stating facts. You can't somehow not make the adjective not apply to something just because you don't like that something. The meanings have entered standard usage, like the negative implication of "hacker" for example, or the spelling "Hapsburg". Just because it's "wrong" that doesn't make it go away. --Shallot 13:52, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's just Vergina on his mission to delete all references to Macedonia that refer to the Slav country rather than the Greek province. Very tiresome behaviour. -- ChrisO 18:50, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Accuracy and NPOV

In case that someone wonders why is this disambiguation page is inaccurate and non-NPOV: It doesn't mention the national group of Macedonians. Instead, it speaks only about Macedonian Albanians, Macedonian Aromanians, Macedonian Bulgarians, Macedonian Greeks, and Macedonian Slavs. The last group is apparently intended to include Macedonians, it is not clear, however, whether it also includes Bulgarians and Serbs living in this area. -- Naive cynic 18:22 26 August

I am sorry, I don't really get your point. Macedonians are called in Wikipedia Macedonian Slavs and in the article Macedonian Slavs, it is explained that the people themselves call themselves Macedonians and are called both Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs. So revert the totally disputed. For the time being VMORO 11:13, August 27, 2005 (UTC)~

Perhaps it's explained there, but it isn't here. How someone looking for information about Macedonians is supposed to find it? -- Naive cynic 14:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Naive cynic, this disambiguation page probably has all the wiki-links available for Macedonians, so that anyone looking information about Macedonians can check the links to understand all the uses of the term Macedonians. The Republic of Macedonia (sic) is mentioned in the Geography section. I'm guessing your argument is about the citizens of that country, so instead of putting the totalydisputed tag I think you should suggest a description for the Macedonian Slavs wiki-link, perhaps something about their citizenship. I don't think you can put a totalydisputed tag here, if you just don't like the term of that wiki-link, see Talk:Macedonian Slavs. MATIA 09:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about the national group. This is a different concept from citizens of RoM, since several other nationalities, such as Albanians, Gypsies, or Serbs, live in RoM, and since many Macedonians live also in neighboring countries. As for the dispute tag, I have put it, of course, to ask for a discussion. I'm not sure why is information about Macedonians being removed from the disambiguation page. While I somewhat understand Greek unhappiness on the existence of this term, it is still does exist, is widely used, and it hasn't been invented by RoM. Could you explain it? -- Naive cynic 20:12, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Well it's a long ugly story. I could tell you what I think and try to present the pov's of the parties involved but I think it would be better to check the related discussions on the talk pages that this disambig page links to. Try Talk:Macedonian Slavs and then come and discuss at Talk:Macedonia. MATIA 21:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

You might want to check the history of this wiki, in its current form it looks like the version by ChrisO, one of the admins who tried in the past to help with this issue, with the addition of the macedonian dynasty and the greek idiom. MATIA 22:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I already have some knowledge of the convoluted history of Macedonia-related names. Probably more that is safe for my strained sanity, at least. -- Naive cynic 07:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I know what you mean. MATIA

Are your tags related to the 211.29.242.115 guy? MATIA

I don't know him, I fear. -- Naive cynic 07:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I meant if his changes led you that this article is inacurate. MATIA 08:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

And now we have the 203.23.27.1 guy. I 'm wondering if he shares the opinion of 211.29.242.115 that the Greek part of the region Macedonia needs to be liberated. MATIA 11:17, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes he expressed his unhistorical pov before. MATIA 11:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Person, place or thing

In grammar school, they told me that a "noun" is a "person, place or thing". Maybe this will help us. Here's a table I'm trying to develop:

Macedonian people(s)	Macedonian lands	Macedonian languages
The group which Greeks call Skopjans (from the capital city of the Republic of Macedonia) or "Macedonian Slavs" (is this a name this group likes to have applied to them? Template:Fn) - see Macedonians (ethnic group)	the region in general: Macedonia (region)	The modern (Slavic) Macedonian language
2.5million Macedonian Greeks	The Greek region of Macedonia: Macedonia (Greece)	The Macedonian idiom of Modern Greek
	Aegean Macedonia (see also ancient Macedon)	The Ancient Macedonian language, see also Macedon
	The Bulgarian region of Macedonia, also known as Pirin Macedonia

Template:Fnb Macedonian Slavs is NOT the name this group wants to have applied to them. That is a name which Greece wants to put on to these people. They are Macedonians, in this case, Macedonians (ethnic group). Bomac 16:51, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, I saw your answer: "NOT ... applied to them". I have modified the table above slightly, in response, but with your permission I'll keep the question open for a few more days. Uncle Ed 18:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

• Aegean Macedonia is a name applied to what you would call Greek Macedonia, and most of the time is associated with teritorial claims. It is not a name of Macedon (in Classic Greece it was called Macedonia plain-vanilla).
• Mac. Slavs is not a name that the Greeks apply or want to force to those people. The Greeks usually calls them Skopjans (from their capital Skopje), and many Greeks don't want any usage of the M* word from our northern neighbours.

Have on mind that many Macedonians don't want to be called "Skopjans", because the people, for example, from Bitola are NOT "Skopjans" (and it isn't very logicall if you call them "Skopjans"), just like the people from Volos are not from Athens (Athinians). Bomac 19:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

You're right Bomac. I've just noted that most people in Greeks doesn't call your people Mac.Sl. or Mac. but they use the term Skopjans.+MATIA ☎ 19:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• Starting conversations in many different talk pages might not be a very good idea. Perhaps you should move this table in a new subsection at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conflict#Macedonians.2FMacedonian_Slavs (that's just an idea). +MATIA ☎ 21:42, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Probably you should add the 2.5million Macedonian Greeks in the people column. And the RoM country in the lands. The lands of that modern country is a part of what you describe with the term Macedonia region (but it wasn't always part of the historical Macedonian region - this has been discussed somewhere before). +MATIA ☎ 21:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Most of the time, splitting the talk is indeed a bad idea. I'm conscious of that, and I've read Meatball's ForestFire article. But it's nice and peaceful on this talk page, so I'm just enjoying the chance to get into this issue slowly.

Sometimes a "divide and conquer" strategy works out well with this kind of conflict. I've mediated dozens of these at Wikipedia, over the last 3 or 4 years. (By the way, is "divide and conquer" from ancient Greece or ancient Rome? I forget which. Uncle Ed 04:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it was a Persian tactic ;) So you probably had in mind ancient Greece. I don't disagree with a peacefull place to gather clues but they are already scattered in about 10 talk pages. +MATIA ☎ 11:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

When it's scattered that widely, adding one more talk page won't make it worse. And I'm trying to use this one to being to tie it all back together. Is that okay? Uncle Ed 16:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't mind that. I was unsure if you knew that they are scattered :)

+MATIA ☎ 16:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Proof of Greeks who recognise themselves as Macedonians: www.mpa.gr Miskin 09:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

That is not a proof. That is a link to a press agency that got that name quite recently, just in order to help the Greek propaganda over the name "Macedonia". Why that name was forbiten during the time of general Metaxas and you started promoting it in the late 1970s? Macedonian^(talk) 01:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

FYI, Kostas Velidis, started the Macedonia newspaper in 1911. English link about the 90-years celebration http://www.hri.org/news/greek/mpab/2001/01-10-06.mpab.html#02

+MATIA ☎ 00:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

That is truth that the newspaper is present for 90 years. But, it did not have "Macedonia" included in its name untill some 20-30 years ago. Macedonian^(talk) 04:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you believe it was renamed at the '70s? Have you read it somewhere? +MATIA ☎ 17:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I do not beleive. I know. People were going in jail just because of mentioning the term "Macedonia" during the dictatorship of general Metaxas. Even after him, until recently.

Probably you would ask me to give you some source. So, I will. The lates one that is comming from a German (sounds quite neutral) expert. I already posted that here on Wikipedia, so please reffer to the following link: | Foss says minorities are Greek big lie. Macedonian^(talk) 04:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I cannot understand what made you think that Metaxas prohibited the term "Macedonia". Check Macedonia newspaper's cover, March 1940 (perhaps you are aware about Metaxas refusal on October 28th of the same year). +MATIA ☎ 16:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I am sure you are aware that Metaxas hate the Macedonians (ethnic group). Every use o the term was connected with these people, thereore everyone who used this term was having hard represions agiants him, including inprisonning the person. Macedonian^(talk) 14:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Check the date of the newspaper. I assure you that Metaxas didn't imprisoned Vellidis or anyone else, and the Macedonia (newspaper) has nothing to do with your people. +MATIA ☎ 15:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, obviously I was mistaken with that one. But, I think you are aware that 2 facts stay:

1) the Macedonians (ethnic group) suffered a lot under Metaxas.

2) the name Macedonia was not so forced untill the 1980s. Actually, most of the moments of using the name Macedonia before that could and often was identified as just another try to prove the so called Greek property of the whole region.

The same thing was done (and still is) by the Bulgarians and by the Serbs (untill 1945th and during a couple of years at the beggining of the 1990s). Macedonian^(talk) 00:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

This is getting too boring. 1) if they lived in Greece, they suffered the same as anyone else under that dictatorship 2) I gave you an example with that newspaper. I could provide more examples but you won't be convinced, so let's end it here. +MATIA ☎ 10:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Disputed extent

The extent of the kingdom of Macedon (considered as a strict territory, not the lands it ruled at different times) is disputed by historians because of the fragmentary evidence. The more sure thing is that Greek Macedonia is pretty much all (if not all) included in ancient Macedon. Ancient Macedon extended beyond that too, but how far north, for example, is disputed. I will detail this stuff in Paionia someday. After Philip's conquest, Paionia became a tributary/semi-independent kingdom with little independent power, but it is debatable whether one can say that that area was in Macedon, though parts of it seem to have become virtually Macedonian. When the Gauls invaded, the Paionians were still around as a separate force, but I'm not sure what independence they had. Macedon also lost parts of Paionia to the Dardani at different times. I have references for this stuff, though I'm writing from memory of past research right now. It is best to avoid saying "see Macedon for the ancient history of Macedonia (region)." Alexander 007 12:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Prior to Philip II Macedon was well enclosed into Aegean Macedonia, check also the maps on the French article. Greek Macedonia is significantly bigger than Classical Macedon of Perdiccas III. Philip II's Macedon included parts of Thessaly, Illyria, Paionia and the Ionian colonies of Chalcidice (such as Stageira). Miskin 17:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The teritory of Macedon had different borders through the time. If we take the same beggining of Macedon, it would probably take only few brain cells in the brain of the first person who got the idea to unify the tribes that lived there.

According to me, any refference between modern teritories and Macedon can be seen as a POV push. Do not forget... more than 20 centuries passed since then. Why someone keeps ignoring that fact? Macedonian^(talk) 04:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a thought...

Why are the names in the form of Macedonian Albanian, Macedonian Bulgarian, Macedonian Greek and so on? Shouldn't it be more like Albanian Macedonian, Bulgarian Macedonian, Greek Macedonian... After all, the places are called Greek Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia; not Macedonian Greece and Macedonian Pirin. Izehar 12:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

All concept of Macedonian Albanian, Macedonian Bulgarian, Macedonian Greek and so on is senceless and unsupported. It is a fact that (when talking about demography), no-one of them (except the ethnic Macedonians) identify their national feeling as Macedonian Greek, Macedonian Bulgarian... They all identify simply with: Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian...

I understand if we put a new paragraph "regionality" where we can include artificial names as these that you counted. But, not when talking about demography.

All this unreal naming of "Macedonian something" is made in order to satisfy the Greek nationalist, who think that they have exclusive right over the name "Macedonia". Macedonian^(talk) 04:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

It's very funny to talk about greek nationalists who think they have exclusive right over the name Macedonia while you have a tendency to deny that the Greek Macedonia was always called Macedonia, and the inhabitants are called Macedonians (and not Macedonians Greeks as they are labeled here). +MATIA ☎ 16:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)]

But, it was not always called Macedonia. You can not deny that the name Macedonia was even orbiten or years untill the 1980s. The same is conirmed by many relevant sources, including a amous Greman historian, Mr. Foss link of news from Deuche Welle. Macedonian^(talk) 14:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect entries

The ethnic section of this disambiguation page is clogged with entries which have nothing to do with the function of the page to clarify, disambiguate and redirect to relevant pages. Whereas there is some sense in the case of Aromanians and to some extent in the case of M.Bulgarians and M.Greeks to be represented on the page as there are ethnographic, linguistic and cultural distinctions between them and other Bulgarians and Greeks and as they are referred to as "Macedonians" in the respective languages, such sense is TOTALLY absent in the other entries. Even with regard to Albanians - they do not refer to themselves in any context as to "Macedonians" and even talk about the portions of Macedonia which they inhabit as "Iliriada", there is no "Macedonian" ethnographic or linguistic group in the Albanian ethnicity. So, I am making a move to remove the superfluous disambiguations. VMORO 20:03, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to react here. The cases of some Bulgarian or Greek (talking about ethnicities here) that identify himself/herself as Macedonian are extremely rare. All of the Bulgarians and Greeks identify themselves clearly as that, Bulgarians and Greeks.

What happens with the Macedonians that live in Bulgaria and Greece? How will you distinct them? Macedonian^(talk) 01:44, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

There are almost 2 and a half million people (I refer just to those who live in :Greek Macedonia") who self-identify as Macedonians, and wikipedia calls them "Macedonian Greeks". See also: A Controversy over the terms. +MATIA ☎ 16:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, you know that this is not truth. They reffer to themselves as Greeks, Thesaonikians, Kilkisians etc, but extremely rarely as Macedonians. Actually, they only do that as a confirmation of their claims for the name "Macedonians", but it is a fact that the use of this term is completely artificial for those people. I know this because I regularly have contact with Greeks rom that part. Actually, first time I heard this claim here on Wikipedia, no matter I am a personal riend with many people that live in that region. Macedonian^(talk) 14:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Macedonian, Bulgarians and Greeks use the name "Macedonians" as a regional and ethnographic identification, and "Bulgarians" and "Greeks" as a national identifications. "Ethnic Macedonians" in the region use "Macedonians" as a regional identification, that's the way you distinguish between them.

Matia, what you say is not right: if the population of Greek Macedonia uses the name "Macedonians" as a national identification, then they are not Greeks, they are "Macedonians" (say a different type of Macedonians from the Slavic Macedonians) and should not be disambiguated to the Greek page. If the name "Macedonians" is used as a regional and ethnographic marker, which is my opinion, then the entry should not be in the Demographics section.

To all users: please, see the way disambiguation pages are constructed and stop writing nationalistic claptrap. In this format, the disambiguation page is not a disambiguation page but a free flight of fantasy. VMORO 14:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

VMORO, that is my point. If anyone uses the name Macedonian for himsels, but he is not a member of the Macedonian ethnicity/nationality, then he uses it as regional identification.

Now, explain me why can a Bulgarian use "Macedonian" as regional identification, but when a Macedonian (ethnic group) uses "Bulgarian", it can not be because of regional identification?

Why double standards?

Also, I think that you definitly do not know anything about the Albanians that live in R. of Macedonia, so you can not judge.

The Albanians in R. of Macedonia are often reffered by others and often reffer to themselves as "Macedonian Albanian". It is because of regional identification.

Here are some sources of that: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], UN source... enought?

So, stop removing my edit about this fact. I hate when someone is stubborn, but has no idea of the reality about some people, neighter has sources. I meet those people every single day, I definitly know more than your stubborn head on this issue. Macedonian^(talk) 00:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid your first phrase (the one that ended with "then he uses it as regional identification") and your last paragraph (stuborn people etc) are around the problem. +MATIA ☎ 10:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to ask anyone to provide a proof that some Greek or Bulgarian identifies as Macedonian, but a proof that is older than 15 years. This way we will exclude sources that are obviously motivated by the Macedonia-Greece dispute. Macedonian^(talk) 01:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the majority of the books that are in public domain (at least before 70 years) is an example... Or Pavlos Melas, a greek self-identifying as Macedonian... +MATIA ☎ 10:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

question

What is the ethnicity of an "ethnic Macedonian" (who sometimes self-identify as a "Macedonian Slav")? +MATIA ☎ 19:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstable, the Macedonians never identify themselves as "Macedonian Slavs". I have said many times to you and I will do it once again. I think it is about time you to understand it and accept it.

Simple: when reffering to "Macedonian Slavs", the Macedonians understand "a member of a Slavic tribe who is ancestor of the modern Macedonians". Please understand it, or give a relevant source if you do not agree.

Answer to your question: His ethnicity is "Macedonian". If you read any definition of ethnicity, also the basic human rights, you would understand that the nationality of these people (including me) can only be "Macedonian" and nothing else. Othervise, several international laws and threaties are broken.

Also, it won't be a bad idea for you to search google for the word "Macedonian", excludong "Bulgaria" and "Greece". You would notice that this search gives at least 10 times more results than "Macedonian Slav" does (a search for "Macedonian Slav" that includes the members of the Slavic tribes from some 15 centuries ago).

I also would like to ask you something and I hope on your answer, same as I answered you.

What is the ethnicity of an Arvanite (who sometimes self-identifies as an Albanian)? I know a substantial number of them call them Albanians because a reliable source (Helsinki Report tells me so). Macedonian^(talk) 00:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You mix ethnicity, nationality and citizenship (three different but related terms). By the way, if you have read the related discussions before voting at Arvanitic language straw-poll, you would knew that Arvanites are ethnicaly Greek... And a hint: most historians use the term Slav in byzantine texts, historians from RoM use the term "Macedonian Slav". But you also deny that politicians from RoM have used sometimes that term, so perhaps there's no point in discussing the same things over and over again. +MATIA ☎ 10:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You're wrong +MATIA.

• Ethnicity refers to a group of people with a common language, culture and supposedly ancestry – you are mixing it up with the Greek word εθνικότητα, but that in fact means nationality.
• Nationality refers to the legal relationship between an individual and a state.
• Citizenship refers to the rights and obligations of a national.

A good way to distinguish between these term is the existence of a state. Without a state, nationality and citizenship don't exist. Therefore, majority group of Greek Macedonia, identify ethnically as Greeks (as they have the same language as other Greeks, etc), they also identify nationally as Greeks and hold Greek citizenship, by virtue of their links with the Greek state. Greeks in America, are ethnically Greeks, but are American nationals and citizens - do you see the difference? The only way in which the Greek Macedonians can identify as Macedonians in the regional sense - just as I can say I am from Dublin, I am a Dubliner. I am not saying that I belong to a separate ethnic group called the Dubliners; I belong to the Irish ethnic group. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

With regard to the Arvanites, if they have their own language, history and culture as the article says, then they are not ethnically Greek; they are ethnically Arvanitic. They may be Greek citizens and nationals, but that is not the same thing. Self-identification with the Greek state stems from the Greek nationality, just as their political rights stem from their citizenship. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Quite simply, the only ethnic group which exists today and claims the name Macedonians as their ethnic identity are the ethnic-Macedonians. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)