Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 6

• Previous discussion is available at Archive 1, Archive 2, and Archive 3.
• The renaming poll of June 2005 (now closed) is archived at Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll. (See also Archive 2 for many comments arising from this poll.)

Pictures

How's this?
File:300px-Macedonians.jpg
REX 17:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

That is quite good. Bomac 19:46, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Macedonians are not some kind of former people (Fyromians, don't make me laugh!). If you find any example in the world, call me. So stop with your emptied propaganda already. As I said before, justice comes slowly, but it'll come some day. The ,,date of use of the Bukurest treaty ends in 2013 or 2014. And who the heck are YOU?!?! I see you've made quite a long pause. Are you a sockpuppet? Bomac 09:58, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

BTW, the link FYROM leads to the truth - REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA (or simply, MACEDONIA). Bomac 10:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Gee, more and more sources

This morning, after church, I was flicking through my copy of the Hutchinson Encyclopedia and I found a rather comprehensive definition of Macedonian. Not Macedonian (ethnicity), not Macedonian Slav, but Macedonian. How curious :-) I guess this means that in conjunction with the fact that Britannica, Ethnologue, the UN etc refer to these people as Macedonians, then we can assume that prominent scholars would appear to disagree with Miskin and Vergina, who seem to believe that the SlavoMacedonians as they call them are mere Bulgarians on Prozac in Yugoslav style. Well, given that their view plays a fringe role in the scientific community, we can assume that we will have to ignore their views (which just coincidentally happen to coincide with those of ΛΑΟΣ :-)) and use the NPOV views as expressed by the vast majority of English language encyclopaedias and use the name that they use accordingly. They are the perfect sources; I wish I knew where Miskin and Vergina got their views. Not from credible encyclopaedias, that's for sure.

In case anyone's interested, here is the entry:

---

Macedonian

People of Macedonian culture from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and the surrounding area, especially Greece, Albania, and Bulgaria. Macedonian, a Slavic language belonging to the Indo-European family, has 1-1.5 million speakers. The Macedonians are predominantly members of the Eastern Orthodox Church and write with a Cyrillic script. They are known for their folk arts.

The Macedonian language and ethnic identification have been subject to repression, especially in Bulgaria and Greece. Although the number of Macedonian speakers in Greece is estimated at 100,000-200,000 (1994), they are denied official recognition.

[Then it had a picture of Macedonians in their traditional dress]

(©Helicon Publishing Ltd, printed from the Hutchinson Educational Encyclopedia, 2000)

---

I hope that Miskin and Vergina acknowledge the fact that they are wrong and that their views are POV. REX 11:12, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Some logical and usual facts

• Macedonian Slavs should NOT be the name for Macedonians because there are many other nations (in the region or in other parts of Europe) that actually belong to the Slavic group of people. According to this, the word Slavs is not used to describe a nation, but to describe only a group of people (for example, like Arabs, who you'll find in Saudi-Arabia [Saudi-Arabians], Egypt [Egyptians], Libya [Libians], Mauritania [Mauritanians] etc.) So, there are many Slavs: Russians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovenians etc. There is absoluttely no-need of adding the suffix Slavs after each nation (it's pointless).

• The UN refers to these people as Macedonians. Encyclopedia Britannica, also, refers to them as Macedonians etc.

• The people in the Republic of Moldova (or Moldavia), are called Moldovans (or Moldavians) worldwide. I'm mentioning this because the Republic of Moldavia borders with the region of Moldavia in Romania, similar "case" as Macedonia / Greece. There are so many other examples like this in the world (Republic of Armenia and the region Armenia in Turkey. The people in the Armenian republic stay Armenians etc.).

• Republic of Macedonia has no terittorial or any other kind of pretensions towards Greece. Because of this, it's non-sence these people not to be referred as Macedonians.

And, these people's democratic choise is to be called Macedonians. They want to be called like that. It's against all rules one country to tell the other how it's citizens to be called. Bomac 18:50, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The name Macedonian Slavs should not be used. There is no reason whatsoever to use that name except to please a few Greek nationalists, who hate this ethnic group and want to impose a label that they find offensive on them (ring a bell, Miskin?). The vast majority of sources refer to these people as Macedonians: Britannica, the CIA World Factbook, the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Harvard Dictionary of Music, Philip's Encyclopedia, the Macmillan Encyclopedia, the Crystal Reference Encyclopedia, Penguin Encyclopedia of Places, the Companion to British History, the Hutchinson Encyclopedia and Ethnologue ALL call this ethnic group Macedonians. To say that Greece also has a region called Macedonia and because of that we should call them Macedonian Slavs is ridiculous. There is a Republic of Mongolia, but that doesn't stop China and Russia having regions called Mongolia. The name Macedonian Slavs is inaccurate anyway; there are at least two Slavic peoples in the wider region of Macedonia, it could also apply to the Bulgarian Macedonians. This dispute has been going on for too long and it is time that the NPOV name be used. More people call these people Macedonians; this is an English language encyclopaedia, most English language sources call these people Macedonians. Macedonian Slavs is inaccurate and offensive to the people in question, it cannot be used. Wikipedia's naming policy also requires the use of the name Macedonians. I think that all this is clear enough, and the name Macedonians is the more appropriate one, and therefore that one should be used. NEXT! REX 19:43, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Due to some unavoidable duties I was not able to discuss here. Basically all has been said before. I would wish once again to stress that the Wikipedia:Naming conflict policy is pretty clear on this matter. In fact, tt couldn't get more clearer. Also it is a good thing to add that this policy has become a naming convention guideline. I think that it is a pity that Matia and Chronographos avoid answering the mediation proposal, it only gives them more options. --FlavrSavr 23:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

And, as some politicians and people say, Macedonians are not Fyromians! Nowhere in the world there aren't some kind of "former people". Macedonians are living in the present! They have their own history! Bomac 11:27, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

The people opposing the usage of the name Macedonians for this ethnic group are not answering us. I propose that we take their silence as an indication of approval, and replace Macedonian Slavs with Macedonians (ethnicity) and use a footnote saying that these people can also be known as Macedonian Slavs. The vast majority of sources use the name Macedonians to refer to these people. I fail to see why the minority name (Macedonian Slavs) should take precedence over the one used by the majority. REX 15:15, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Or, because in everyday talk noone uses the term Macedonians to describe the Greeks that live in the Greek region of Macedonia, we can simply move it to "Macedonians". Bomac 16:22, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Country is a country (in the R. of Macedonia live Macedonians) region is a region (in the Greek region of Macedonia live Greeks and other ethnicities). Bomac 16:29, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

No Bomac, we shouldn't call your nation plain Macedonians. Let's not take it too far; Macedonians (ethnicity), Ethnic Macedonians or Macedonians (ethnic group) will do for now. It is true that other encyclopaedias (ie Hutchinson) call your nation plain Macedonians and it may be an acceptable name, but given that Wikipedia is built on consensus, the claim to the name Macedonians just for your ethnic group, will provoke reaction from Greek and Bulgarians and result in violent edit wars and pointless lengthy discussions. My proposals above will do, I think, because they are not too questionable and they are accurate. It acknowdedges the fact that your name is Macedonians (that is the name you use for yourselves as opposed to the fictional Macedonian Slavs) and that you are a modern ethnic group, but it does not imply that you are the only Macedonians and that the Greeks and Bulgarians are not just unwanted tresspassers. REX 17:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Works for me. For now, it is the best solution - smth. like Macedonians (ethnicity). Bomac 17:24, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Good, at least we're sorted out. REX 17:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like to ask why the Macedonians (or people with close Macedonian origin) that live in other countries (such as USA with more than 150.000, with more than 40.000 in Michigan, Canada with more than 250.000, Australia with more than 250.000 etc.) are not mentioned at all in the text for the modern Macedonians?

Those people are actually the ones that can be the biggest proof of our distinct ethnicity. Most of them moved out of the region in the first 40 years of the 20th centrury, because of what they had no conection with Tito.

That makes the claims expressed on Wikipedia that the modern Macedonians are creation of Tito a complete non-sence, because these people identify as of Macedonian ethnicity, despite the fact that they never were under influence of Tito.

Also, I would like to mention the following:

The Bulgarian prime minister, Mr. Serge Stanishev recognized and again confirmed his Macedonian origin, saying that his whole origin from his father side is Macedonian. Just few days ago, during his meeting with the Macedonian prime minister Vlado Buchkovski he said that except Bulgarian, he also has Macedonian, Russian and German blood in his vains. He also said that his grandparents (the Macedonian part of the family) runned away from Kukush (today Kilkis, in northern Greece) in 1913th and setled in Dupnica. I know that someone will now try to change this fact and say that Mr. Stanishev was talking about the regions. So, it is necesary to explain that Mr. Stanishev did not reffer to the regional origin, because he mentioned another nationalities (Bulgarian, German and Russian) in the same context.

Mr. Stanishev expressed the same many times before during several interviews that he gave in the past.

As you can see, he lived all his life in Bulgaria, but he clearly knows his origin and the fact that he has other origin except Bulgarian.

Another thing I would like to add that every preposition of the United Nations for the naming conflict between Macedonia and Greece includes that we should be called Macedonians. This is also included in the newest preposition, which appeared just 2-3 days ago.

I almost forgot to mention the newest resolution of the senate of Michigan, USA, which clearly supports the Macedonian nation, its ethnicity, history, the constitutional name Republic of Macedonia, its church and language, giving a complete support over the naming conflict to Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonians.

Macedonian 20:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Another question... why the link http://makedonija.150m.com/ is constantly used, sometimes even without mentioning that is pro-Bulgarian web site?

Even the site is hosted on a free server (www.150m.com), which gives clear assumption that something is not the way it should be. All the objects that can be found on this site are of unconfirmed origin and could be easily a product of the Bulgarian tries to assimilate the Macedonians. This claim is even more posible when we have on mind that all the objects listed on this web page are kept in Bulgaria and most of them do not have support and can not be found in some international and neutral source or archive. Macedonian

"Assimilate" is a sharp word, you may like to avoid it. What's bad with it being a pro-Bulgarian website? Don't we have the right to have our own opinion? I don't think you had any evidence at all on the documents on the site being forged, it is very unusual to think of something as being forged without any evidence. Are you sure it's just refusing to accept it? Besides, this thing you said about Stanishev isn't trustworthy, Bulgarians with ancestry from the region Macedonia might usually say that "Macedonian blood is flowing in their veins" (и на български ще ме разбереш, "македонска кръв тече във вените им", нали така?). And we mean the region, as Kukush is obviously not a part of the Republic of Macedonia and has actually never been. Many Bulgarians fled or were expelled of the Greek part of Macedonia after the wars. It's just you that didn't get what he said, so you might prefer to avoid using such "evidence" in the future. File:Bulgaria flag large.png → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov _{→ Talk} 08:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Todor, there is nothing bad for you to have your oppinion. To be honest, I find it very offensive for me, but noone can take away your right to express your own oppinion.

Concerning the word "Assimilation", I can not avoid it, even if I want. You know by yourself that every day your TV stations and newspapers are full of claims that Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. It is time for you to wake up and realise the truth. I know very different historical facts than the ones you beleive in. And, both of us are right, because the history of the region is in fact twisted and quite unclear one, so both POVs (mine and yours) have a lot of supporting evidence. Whatever the past was, the present fact stays: We are here, our nationality/ethnicity is Macedonian and noone can change that. Actually, even this last post of yours is assimilative, because you obviously try to deny my separate (Macedonian) existance of your own (Bulgarian).

Concerning Mr. Stanishev... his words and aditude is completely clear. This was not the first time he said this (reminder for you at his interviews, where he never hided the fact of his mixed origin). His father was raised as Macedonian and he recognizes that. It is complete bulshit to claim that someone is calling himself Macedonian and saying that Macedonian blood is in his vains just because of the region. The blood does not have any sence of regions. I am sure that Mr. Stanishev would never say that French blood is flowing in his vains just because someone of his family is born in France. If you were born in Scandinavia, would you say that Scandinavian blood flows in your vaines? Sorry, but I have to characterise this as complete non-sence.

The difference between you and Mr. Stanishev, my friend, is that he spent most of his life out of Bulgaria and his brain is not completely washed by everyday programs that run on your TV (something that you can not deny and something that even I have seen). I recognize that many Bulgarians also lived in the area of Kukush before the 1913th, but they were not the only ones.

I have to stress here the fact that, despite his really mixed origin, Mr. Stanishev is obviously Bulgarian, because he feels like Bulgarian and identifies with that ethnicity. I have no intention to deny or hide that and I completely respect that feeling of his, it is his basic human right.

But, I have to protest that, like Mr. Stanishev, I have the right to identify my own nationality. It is not a decision that I or someone else took. It is a feeling that grew through the human development.

Macedonian 19:57, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that it is perfectly clear now that Macedonians is the name of this ethnic-group. There is no reason whatsoever to call them Macedonian Slavs. REX 21:29, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I strongly suggest this page to be replaced. Bomac 08:41, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The educational method used in the Communist countries consisted of the following: recite the Party line, ask for questions, answer the questions by reciting the Party line again, then ask for further questions, then re-recite the Party line, etc etc, ad nauseam. This is what our esteemed editors (who are actually fewer persons than what their liberal use of various nicknames might suggest) are doing. Which is what is to be expected of scions of the Communist "education" system. Endless repetition, however, is not argumentation; rather it falls into the spectrum of Autism. Chronographos 09:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Firstable, if you knew ANY history, you would know that Yugoslavia was much closer to USA and UK than to the other comunist countries. Should I remind you how the Yugoslav National Army became a world power after the WW2? Should I remind you that in that time Greece and Yugoslavia were actually in a military union?

Another thing I have to point out... neighter me, neighter my dad or grandfather were comunists. Read some literature, educate yourself. The Yugoslav communist was not exacly communism, especially after the death of Tito in 1980th.

And, the last reminder. Macedonia is not a part of Yugoslavia since 1991st. Another reminder... the problems between Greece and Macedonia started after 1991st, when we were out of Yugoslavia. Tito is long gone, we are completely independant now, trying to get in EU and NATO. Have you ever asked yourself why we still identify ourselves as Macedonians? If we are Bulgarians, why we simply do not join with Bulgaria and get in EU just in 1 year time? Why instead we decide to stay independant state?

Macedonian identity is the only one that we know (no matter did it start 2000 years ago, in the 6th or 19th century, 1945th or 1991st). It is simply not a choise, it is a feeling that won't disapear just because you would preffer it that way. Macedonian 20:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah Chronographe, welcome back! I can see that Δεαθήναι has activated you. Very nice! I hope you know that Macedonians is what this ethnic group should be called as the largest part of the available evidence points in that direction. It is the NPOV way to say it and that is what we should do. Greek POV is of very little value and the NPOV of Britannica, Hutchinson... etc... etc seem to think is appropriate to use the name Macedonians. Unless you provide us with a good reason to use the name Macedonian Slavs, it will be considered an indication of acceptance of our proposal. Also, the Greek "education" system is not that good either. Propaganda upon propaganda is forced on the students, most of it is a pack of lies anyway (believe me, I've been there). REX 10:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's a eurocent for your, er, "thoughts". Chronographos 10:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You should actually pay us for reading your comments, Chronographos. How do you dare talking about education, when your history books (same as your constitution) say that Greece has no national minorities? It is idiotic to beleive that any country on the Balkan can be "clear" (something reminds of the Nazi ideas, doesn't it?). No wonder there is no human rights organization which did not criticise Greece for its treatment of its minorities. Macedonian 20:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, Chronographe I think that you should know that the Partia e Punës e Shqipërisë did not impose education in that manner. It was more of a "if you know what is good for you, you will know what is true" attitude. You know, the same attitude that is used in Greece today. REX 10:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

And here's another. Chronographos 10:34, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

And here's a penny for all your hard work. If I'm not much mistaken, a penny is worth more than a eurocent. Gee! Anyway, given that Chronographos's "argument" was a cheap mud-throwing meant to defocus the discussion and to conceal the fact that he has no arguments to support his views I don't think that he should be taken too seriously. REX 10:41, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

That's why I set up the New Chapter. I ignore non-constructive talking (or BLA-BLA). Bomac 10:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

New Chapter

Well, where were we? Ah yes... replacing the page in it's real name (or heading)! Bomac 09:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, given that there is NO reason whatsoever to call these people Macedonian Slavs and the majority of sources call them Macedonians, that is the name that should be used. REX 10:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You seem to have assembled a team of some kind :) Good luck in the World Championships. By the way, Boamc, don't you think your wording is a bit POV? I mean, this might be already decided, but this doesn't mean you have to show arrogance after a little win like this one. After all, there are people that don't actually think that the "real name" of the page is "Macedonians" (not that I am one of them, I'm not expressing an opinion as I don't have a one on this topic, I'm just stating). File:Bulgaria flag large.png → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov _{→ Talk} 17:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Todor, I do not have anything against your national flag, but putting it anywhere on your posts will characterise you as nationalist. This is not request, just a friendly advice.

Concerning the so called "team"... as you can see, this position is supported by users with different nationalities, not only by Macedonians. On the other hand, the opposites are all of Greek origin. Probably with time some sockpuppet of some Greek user will appear claiming his neutrality, but it is not easy to hide that. Macedonian 20:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn describe myself as a nationalist, actually. I love my country and am proud with it, that's why I've put the flag in my signature. I've seen other people do this here and I don't think it's a practice for nationalists only. That's certainly not what I've meant, to be viewed as a nationalist. It actually it isn't even common for me to take part in such complex topics like Macedonia and the identity of its people. I was just expressing an opinion about the course the discussion has taken and its overall tone. File:Bulgaria flag large.png → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov _{→ Talk} 20:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I just want to make it clear that I never described you as a nationalist. I haven't had much contact with you and I can not make any relevant judgement, but for now I think you are OK.

Concerning the flag, I just gave a tought. Your flag (same as anyones flag) does not bother me at all (why would it?). I am sure that many people will see me as nationalist just because of my nickname, so I just gave a tought (probably I will get another Eurocent from Mr. Chronographos for this :)). But, same as you, I am proud of what I am. But in same time, I have great respect for everyone here, no matter of their POV (even of you, Chronographos. Another Eurocent?). Only thing that I can not accept is someone trying to steal or ignore my identity. I am sure that no one would accept something like that.

I am sure that sometime in future we will have some disagreevment about some issue. But, untill we keep the respect for each other, we will be cool.Macedonian 01:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

With all my respect to you, Todor, but I am not being arrogant around here. Just look upwards and you'll see tons of arrogance from some other users. I am only arrogant when someone speaks to me with arrogance.

If you are talking about the last talks with Chronographos, he is only trying to make someone be arrogant with him, and in that way he'll gefocus the constructive talk around here. I mean, here we are to tell the things as they are: Every country has the right of it's opinion about Macedonia and Macedonians, but Macedonia and Macedonians are a fact, reality, and they don't want someone to interfere in "their" internal things, just as Bulgaria, Greece, U.S.A. etc. won't like that. Macedonians have the right of it's opinion, too (about their issues!).

As for the team, I don't know the other users, we only share the same opinions (and I don't see what is wrong with that?!?). I won't call this a "little win" because I am not a "player" and I am not "playing" around here. I just want the truth to make it's way through the darkness (no offence, my opinion). Macedonia has it's right to "live and breathe" in the way she wants. Bomac 18:01, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not talking about your dialogue with Chronographos, it's this "real name" thing that upset me and I found POV-ish. Just that. I accept the rights of Macedonians to be called whatever they want, everyone has this right. It's actually the history and language of your nation and more precisely the way you're describing them what we Bulgarians find untrue in most cases. File:Bulgaria flag large.png → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov _{→ Talk} 20:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Ever heard of Mentos? Chronographos 18:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

And you remember the pants thing? Bomac 18:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC).

What about Mentos? Do you (Chronographos) consider them to be Greek because of the "s" at the end of its name? Do we have another joke that can be a part of "My big, fat, Greek wedding", Part 2? Macedonian 20:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

All right! Bomac, Chronographe; if you want to play games and be rude to each other, go to one of those simple chat websites. Bomac, stick to the issues. Chronographe, provide valid arguments, or be ignored. REX 18:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I am doing that all the time, but Chronographos wants to make Circulus vitiosus. Bomac 18:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, my suggestion is not to respond to Chronographos provocations. Chronographos, instead of cheap attempts to provoke an emotinal reaction from Bomac, please be more constructive. It's a pity that your use your knowledge of psychiatry this way. The both sides need an atmosphere of mutual respect to engage in to a civilized debate - it's one of the key Wikipedia policies. For a start: You didn't state your opinion about mediation on the naming dispute? --FlavrSavr 18:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I will have to review Wikipedia procedure first, and will do so in my own time. Unlike you teenagers I am a busy professional, especially this time of the year, and am going through a computer system migration. I have seen very little good faith on your behalf: for example you have failed to accept the outcome of the June poll, and I have not seen a single instance of you reverting the outrageous edits of your compatriots (assuming they are not the same person), or even offering the slightest criticism. Contrast this with my explicit disavowal of Miskin's practices. Until you prove, with deeds rather than words, that you are honest and trustworthy, and until I review the Wikipedia conflict resolution guidelines, I will have to withhold my approval. Chronographos 18:58, 11 October 2005 (UTC) (As to who provoked whom, be advised to get a whiff of the stench that emanates from your esteemed friend, Bomac)

Err, no Chronographos. You do realise that if it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that Macedonians is indeed the name that should be used for this ethnic-group according to the evidence as it is interpreted by Wikipedia policy, it doesn't make any difference what you think. Even if you did accept mediation, it wouldn't make any difference as everyone else has refused. I really do hope that you will find an acceptable pattern of behaviour (at least for Wikipedia). Your tormenting Bomac is hardly doing you any favours and is a disruption of Wikipedia, so I would advise you to stop. Mature behaviour (something which you clearly lack) is something very important, especially when dealing with "teenagers" as you seem to think that everybody is. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 19:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Will three eurocents satiate your hunger? Chronographos 19:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Your immature behaviour is apparently incurable. Your provocations with the intent of disrupting Wikipedia are not helping anyone, including yourself, as I have already told you. You are aware, I trust, that not many people will be willing to take you seriously if you persist in behaving this way. As far as I can see, you haven't made any significant contribution to this discussion and your presence here is merely a waste of bandwidth. So, I advise you to stop patronising and to find some reason why the final state of the article should be the way you want it. You obviously dislike some aspects of this article. Why don't you tell us them with valid reason why they should be amended and then we can have a healthy debate. I appreciate that not everyone here would be willing to do that (Miskin, Bomac and the rest of the "teenagers"). If you perceive yourself to be above their level, I would expect you to act accordingly, instead of sinking to their level. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 19:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, four eurocents, you Shylock. Chronographos 19:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Chronographe, I think I've told you that I don't wish to engage in the other debates until the naming dispute is over. If you haven't noticed I've never made a significant edit to this article (check the article's history). I had only reverted Miskin absurd claim, 3 or 4 times, and after that, I didn't even tried to do that. I honestly don't remember that you somewhere criticized Miskin's edits (Where?). I also didn't engage in the edit wars, I didn't revert neither of the POVs regarding the number of Macedonians in Greece, or the pictures. I think we should resolve the naming issue first, and then discuss the other topics.--FlavrSavr 19:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

As for Bomac, he's relatively new in Wikipedia, and to this dispute as well. I think that he's a being a bit overdramatic, but it is understandable, considering the sensitivity of this issue. I also happen to lose my temper, sometimes, but I try to stay cool, as possible. I don't approve personal attacks on both sides. In this particular arguement, I think that it was you who started the unnecessary attacks by labeling him as a communist propagandist, or whatever. That doesn't not mean that he should have responded (and he responded in a really ugly manner), because, as he put it, we would enter the magic circle. We have a specific topic to discuss, and we needn't involve our personal frustrations with this issue. Chronographos, I would appreciate if you stop making sweeping generalisations such as - "You're only doing this because your country is poor, and it has communist history". That is not an argument, it's a personal attack, and tends to lead to an another quarrel. It is better for both sides to cite their sources, instead.--FlavrSavr 19:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that you are misinterpreting the outcome of the June poll - first of all, the poll was a draw. Second, the poll was an obvious disaster because the participants of both POVs didn't even pretend to be NPOV. Third, polls are not meant to be elections - they are means of reaching a consensus (at least 60% of the votes, or actually, the stated opinions) - see Wikipedia:Poll.--FlavrSavr 19:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I urge you to see the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, as soon as possible. There was a Mediation request 10 days ago, and we still don't have a definite NO or YES from you. I hope that our future discourse would become a bit more civilized. Regards. --FlavrSavr 19:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I will not be able to meet your schedule for at least a month. This is what I propose to you: I would like you to edit the text of this article and then request that it be locked for a month in the form you will have given it. I am disgusted by all these "various" "Macedonians", "Bomacs, "Macap"s, "Grandfathers" and "REX"s (i.e. sockpuppetry galore). Then we may discuss. Chronographos 20:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

If you have any evidence, please "sing" them to us. Othervise, shut the f*ck up and concentrate on the topic. (I exuse myself for my language, but I had to find words that can be understood by hronographos).

I do not understand why we keep asking Chronographos, Miskin or similar characters like that for aproval. I do not remember that the Macedonian side was asked when the name "Macedonian Slav" was given. No Macedonian can accept forced change of his ethnicity.

Just look at the "eurocents and pennies" that Chronographos threw here. Quite childish behavious from a "non-teenager".

Can we ask some other users to include, some that are from neutral nationalities? Their presence on this issue is obviously of good use (no matter which side I support, aldough that is too obvious). Macedonian 21:13, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You barely even know me. How can you say this? Bomac 20:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC) And, please, stop finding "excuses" about why you don't want to participate. You are becoming very "obvious". Bomac 20:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Not knowing you is one of the many reasons for which I thank God every morning. Not ever knowing you is one of the things I ask of Him. Would it be too much to ask Him that you never address me again? Chronographos 20:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC) (the same goes for the Albanian writing below)

Said the nationalistic crap Chronographos.

You don't have to "expose" anymore, it's worthless talking to you and requesting co-operation. Bomac 20:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

GrandfatherJoe and FlavrSavr, I can't understand why you are even bothering trying to reason with that sad individual. Chronographos doesn't want to find the NPOV and use that. The wants to see his POV in the article (which coincidentally happens to concur with that of ΛΑΟΣ). He fails to see the sad state of his country when compared to the other EU countries which are wealthier and more influential that his rather remotely located country (Ευρωβλάχοι). You can see even now that he is making fun of you when you asked for sincere co-operation and his display of bad faith is overwhelming. He can't see that his consent to mediation wouldn't make any difference; he is just trying to make a nuisance of himself. As for his accusations of sockpuppetry, the glittering hypocrisy of it! What about User:Theathenae? If you want to talk about sockpuppets, let's talk about him. I agree with GrandfatherJoe, he is a waste of bandwidth. REX 20:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos, who do you think you are? You can't just waltz in here and lay down the law. If you are not going to be here when we decide what is to be done, we will just have to proceed without you. You can't have the page blocked at your pleasure, so that no one can edit it in your absence. Wikipedia is a free encyclopaedia, that means that anyone can edit it at any time and that all editors are equal. You will just have to accept whatever we decide while you are away. Also, what do you mean by Shylock? GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 20:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, he means that he is so full with knowledge. I don't share that opinion, no way! Bomac 20:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that Chronographos has completely discredited himself with these ludicrous requests and authoritarian demands. Well Chronographe, I hate to break it to you, but on Wikipedia you are on equal terms with the "Albanian" and the "Slavomacedonian". You cannot dismiss other users as sockpuppets because you fell like it. You have no proof, so you will just have to listen to the "sockpuppets" and watch them make decisions on the articles. On Wikipedia, even a baby from Mali (the poorest country of earth) is equal to you and has the same influence and rights as you, and don't you forget it. So, you can either co-operate, or you can leave. Take your pick. REX 21:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos, I'm sorry, but your proposal is unacceptable. First of all, I cannot and I do not wish to forbid nobody from editing - if you feel that the changes they did are unacceptable, please state your reasons why in the discussion page, accompanied by relevant sources. I will not interfere in neither of these discussions until the naming dispute of this page is not solved. It's a free encyclopedia, as GrandfatherJoe properly put it, and I am by no means privileged to make edits as I please, and request those edits to be protected, because me and you had made some deal in the past. Second, I have some remarks on the edits they've made, but I have already stated that, until the naming dispute is not solved, I do not wish to have anything to do with the edits of the contents regardless whether they come from Greek, Bulgarian or Macedonian side. Because the very name of the ethnic group is disputed, this dispute takes precedence over all other disputes. I actually discouraged editing of other topic until the naming dispute isn't solved. Third, this lasts for too long, and I don't see any reason for prolonging it for an entire month, just because you happen to have those PC shifts - I am by no means obliged to do that. The request for Mediation has been made 12 days ago, and you have had enough time to answer it. I've been at this dispute for nearly half a year, and I think I have shown more than enough patience, despite the sensitivity of the issue, and despite taking loads of serious personal attacks against me, and as well attacks towards my ethnicity, from some proponents of the other POV. (to remind you: some of these attacks have been made by you, Chronographos)

To conclude: I am willing to wait for another day, to make your decision whether you accept the mediation or not. After that, I'll be asking some admins to tell me the further steps that should be made concerning the naming dispute. --FlavrSavr 22:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

No need to wait one more day then: I have other priorities (including a couple of Wiki-projects of my own) for the next month or so, therefore I, in my turn, do not accept your Mediation proposal. Chronographos 22:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC) (I think I offered you a fair and balanced deal: I am sorry you prefer the mess of edit wars and the consequent inflammation of emotions)

Thank you for your answer, Chronographos. After the neutrals decide on this matter, I assure you that I will do my best for this article to be edited according to the NPOV policy. --FlavrSavr 23:02, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

As for the others engaged in this discussion: let's focus on the naming dispute. It is by far the most important dispute, and it is fundamental to the article. I can not forbid anyone to edit the contents of the article, but it would be better (for all) to concentrate on the naming issue. Please don't make edits to the contents that are not supported by relevant sources. Regards to all --FlavrSavr 23:02, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I see... Rexhep Bojaxhiu 20:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Unrealistic population estimates

Someone estimated over 200,000 McdSlvs live in Canada/US/Australia nad the like even two of those census don't even list Macedonians due to their insignificant populations and one (US) lists less than 10,000 (of whch could be Albanians).

Anonimous IPs should not even be alowed here. Please register a nickname and include in the discussion, if you would like. This way, we can always doubt that you might be someone's sockpuppet.

Anyway, Here are some links for you:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=D&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-mt_name=ACS_C2SS_EST_G2000_PCT026

Here you can find about people with Macedonians ancestry that live in USA, which is at about 40.000 that reported their Macedonian ancestry. Macedonians, not Albanians.

By the way, the site is the official site of the US 2000 census.

Here is about Canada:

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/ETO/Table1.cfm?Lang=E&T=501&GV=1&GID=0 (official site of the Canadian census)

Just a note that the Canadian embasy in Skopje released a information that in the last 5 years, 3500 Macedonians move in Canada every single year (5years*3500=17500), and 1500 yearly in average since 1991st (14years*21000)... What about the ones that moved before, during the whole 20th century?

Now little about Australia:

http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3110124.NSF/0/87BD8C1561992B644A2564D400286575?Open

By the way, this is just for Macedonians born in Macedonia. What about the people that are born in Australia? Toshe Proevski's concert in Melbourne had 15.000 visitors. Just in one city...

Now, I would like you (or anyone else) explain me the estimates given on Wiki for the Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks etc. which live outside their countries and provide proofs in the censuses of those countries... Also these estimates look funny and far too high on the first sight, but not when you dig a little in the history.

(By the way, we all know that many of these people register as citizens of those countries, not like Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks, Macedonians or anything else).

One question for the end... Do you really think that George W. Bush would risk his friendship with the Greek side if the Macedonian comunity in US was not big enought? Maybe you should check how many official meetings he had in the last few years with representors of the Macedonian comunity in USA. Then, try to imagine the number of the unofficial ones... Macedonian 04:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Now, I would like you (or anyone else) explain me the estimates given on Wiki for the Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks etc. which live outside their countries and provide proofs in the censuses of those countries... Also these estimates look funny and far too high on the first sight, but not when you dig a little in the history.

I think the Bulgarian and Serb statistics are overrepresented too. I never said I didn't. But the ones you're giving make no sense in the longrun. Of the estimated 50,000 Macedonians in America, who's to say they don't include Albanians, Greeks, and Bulgarians? Remember, the census asks for the area of peoples origin; they don't care about how nations are infact formed. The modern territory of Macedonian is only minimally occupied my McdSlvs.

Finally, if you want to include statistics for the diaspora above. I think a total estimate of 200,000 for US, Canada, Australia, and Western Europe would be satisfactory. Perhaps with another 5 - 10,000 living elsewhere.

The statistics for Macedonians is separate from the ones of the Greeks. Even a 2 year old kid knows that any Greek, Bulgarian or Albanian when asked about their origin, they will say it to be Greek, Bulgarian or Albanian. Only the Macedonians identify as Macedonians, all the rest is just unrealistic propaganda.

So, please stop saying that those numbers might be from Albanians, Greeks or Bulgarians. If that is so, Switzerland would have more than 50.000 Macedonians, which are actually Albanians from Republic of Macedonia. Only person without any knowledge of the region can claim what you say about this issue.

These days I will search the web and fill the page with official statistics and estimations which are supported by relevant people. Anyway, be sure it will be at least 500.000. Official statistics of Republic of Macedonia shows that just in the last 15 years about 50-60.000 Macedonians + 40.000 Albanians left Macedonia. In the same time there are Macedonian families that live in the diaspora for more than 3 generations. Macedonian 01:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, the estimates for the Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs will be changed too, untill the numbers are confirmed in the same way as the ones for the Macedonians will. Macedonian 01:54, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Another thing. You anonimously said:

"Remember, the census asks for the area of peoples origin; they don't care about how nations are infact formed. The modern territory of Macedonian is only minimally occupied my McdSlvs."

Do they count the people from Scandinavia as Scandinavians, rather than Swedish, Norwegian or anything else? Or do they count the Kurds as Turkish or Iraqi? This comment of your is extremely senceless and to be honest, a little bit dull.

One thing for the end... MY FUCKING ETHNICITY IS MACEDONIAN. GET USED TO IT, AS*HOLE!!! Macedonian 02:03, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the real deal behind the naming problem?

Taken from: http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/agencija/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=1&NrIssue=254&NrSection=10&NrArticle=11661&ST1=tekst&ST_T1=vest&ST_AS1=1&ST_LS1=-1&ST_max=1

(the whole interview can be found on Macedonian at: http://www2.dw-world.de/macedonian/temamace/1.157534.1.html. Before anyone try to deny this, have on mind that this is from the official Deutsche Welle web page) Macedonian 04:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

---

Foss says minorities are Greek big lie

Bon/Skopje, 13:54

A big lie of Greeks is their attitude towards ethnic minorities i.e. the denied existence of other ethnicity in Greece, German historian Christian Foss said.

"This also refers to Macedonians given the official non-recognition of Slav minority in northwest part of Greece, which clearly declare themselves as Macedonians. I reckon that minorities-related issue stands behind the big agitation over the name of the Republic of Macedonia," Foss told Deutsche Welle Radio.

Historian Foss stressed that name issue ignited by Greece is "artificial".

"The problem was created artificially given the fact that the name Macedonia plays no role as far as Greeks are concerned. The Ministry in Northern Greece used to call itself a Ministry for Northern Greece, and following the rift with the Republic of Macedonia in 1991, Greeks started to glorify Alexander The Great and his heritage, the Vergina Star, in particular the name Macedonia, which has been too much exploited on national level," Foss said. In this context, he also mentioned the renaming of an airport in Thessaloniki, and Alexander-engraved 100 drachma coins.

As regards the historical context of the name, Foss said the problems occurred in early 20th century, when the three Balkan neighbors of Macedonia forged ahead with grabbing its territory.

"In the course of Greek dictatorship era in early 20th century, Greece had mistreated the Slav-speaking population. Greece took an advantage of the civil war in late 40s (of 20th century) to banish tens of thousands of Slav-speaking residents fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with communists. This is an important factor to comprehend why Greeks block a solution to the so-called Macedonian issue.

Up to present days, these refugees have been derived from their right to return home as Greece challenges Macedonian identity, German historian said in an interview with Deutsche Welle Radio

---

By the way, Angela Merkel will be the new chancellor of Germany. Not good news for the Greek position about this issue, because her party was the one who actually voted for the recomendation of the German parliament to the goverment (then lead by Gerhard Schröder) to recognize Macedonia's constitutional name and the Macedonian identity. By the way, maybe Great Britain, Denmark, Netherlands, Italy or Spain have some suprise... who knows? Some of the parlaiments of these countries already did the same as the German parliament did... Macedonian 04:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Pictures again

Look everyone, can we leave this picture business for now. We'll fix the picture in the fullness of time. Just leave the pictures out for now. They are obviously disputed and this kind of dispute cannot be solved. I'll see if I can find anyone to replace Samuel and Cyril with. REX 07:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I would only accept Samuel and Cyril not to be included in the Macedonians picture only if noone else includes them, because their ethnicity is obviously disputed. Maybe we can try Kiro Gligorov, Boris Trajkovski, Milcho Manchevski, Darko Panchev, Gotze Delchev, Dame Gruev, Jane Sandanski, Nikola Karev, Dimo Hadzi Dimov, Naum Ohridski, Simon Trpcevski, Mike Zafirovski, Blaze Konevski, Petar Naumovski, Vrbica Stefanov and many others from the history whose names I will try to avoid in order to avoid conflicts with the stealers of the Macedonian history. The fucked up thing is that till the beggining of this century the Macedonians were saying that they are Bulgarians just in order to protect themselves from the Greek assimilation and because the Bulgarians were pretending to be our brothers at that time. It is idiotic to beleive that just 100 years after that there can be about 2,5 million people around the world that feel very strongly as of Macedonians ethnicity and would never accept to be called Bulgarians or anything else. It is especially interesting because they lived in many different counties around the world and some of them are out of Macedonia for more than 70-80 years. Macedonian 02:24, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I made another picture. You can find out who they are by clicking on the picture. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 09:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

So, one of them is a person who published a collection of ... folk songs, except he himself called them "Bulgarian folk songs". How very apt ... Chronographos 09:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry Κρονόγκραφε, but I am not Macedonian. I am Greek (!). Given that you know everything, why don't you find a famous Macedonian and a picture of him/her. You are useless, all you do is sit back and critisise. Anyway, I think that given that the Macedonians were called Bulgarians then, had this individual lived today he would have called them "Macedonian folk songs", but don't take it on my authority. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 11:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You are a "Greek"? Yeah right ...

Find a famous "Macedonian"? Yeah, right ...

He "would have called them"? Yeah right ...

Which reminds me of the famous little ditty:

All the Woulda-Coulda-Shouldas

Layin' in the sun,

Talkin' 'bout the things

They woulda-coulda-shoulda done...

But those Woulda-Coulda-Shouldas

All ran away and hid

From one little did.

Chronographos 11:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, most amusing! Why are you here again? To make a valuable contribution to the article (lol) or to cause trouble? BTW here is another penny on top of all that aid that the EU (including the UK) have given to your country. Might help you repay that debt for the airport, the games etc :-))) Rexhep Bojaxhiu 11:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Too bad that even those friends of yours are slowly abandoning you, Chronographos. Maybe your behavious can give us a clear hint why is that happening... Macedonian 02:24, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Evasion

As Chronographos and Miskin are not presenting any reasonable arguments in favour of calling these people Macedonians, I'll take their silence as an indication of their acceptance of the impending renaming of this page. REX 13:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

No, dear. You will not decide the outcome of this long-standing dispute on your own. Not only will this arbitrary, unilateral move not stand, but you will have repercussions. Chronographos 18:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you talking about me???? As far as I know, it was Bomac who moved the page. I know that you like to direct all your malice at me, but he started it and you joined in the edit war after him and then I joined in. I did not make the first move. It was you and Bomac who started the edit war. I sicerely hope that you will retract those lies, or I will have to report you. Regards. REX 19:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course Bomac did it (so much is obvious in the edit history) and somehow you knew that the renaming of this page was "impending". You obviously possess the unique gift of telepathy, and so does Bomac, one may safely assume. BTW feel free to report me in whichever way you see fit. I am retracting nothing. Chronographos 19:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, unless you believe that Bomac is my sockpuppet (lol) I fail to see why you would accuse me (the inoccent one) of having anything to do with all this. I flatter myself of being in possession of the gift of clairvoyance and that may be the explanation. What I would like to know is why don't you ever seem to be trying to solve this dispute like I do. All you do is cause trouble. I have proposed mediation, cited sources and displayed signs of a desire to engage in a constructive discussion over the available sources. A good sign of my good faith is he number of times I have amended that picture as to avoid offence from aither Bulgarians or Greeks (with the minor exception of the joke one). It is a hard task I can tell you, famous Macedonians don't grow on trees. You on the hand do nothing but criticise and cause trouble, I hope you know that that may qualify as trolling (ie unconstructive disruption). Also, where is your sockpuppet Theathenae? In the washing machine? REX 20:08, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Your repeated insults (which you call "arguments") are beneath contempt, their worth being less than a eurocent. As you undoubtedly recall, I stated that I will not be able to participate in the process of mediation until mid-November. Chronographos 21:31, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Whereas yours are holy. You have not given even one reason to support this Macedonian Slavs nonsense. The vast majority of sources call these people Macedonians, I fail to see what you have against this name so much. As for our postponing mediation. We're used to that, in mid-November you would say "sorry, it has to be mid-December". The tactics are well known by now, they have been used many times before. You can however be online now though, right? REX 22:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I am having my house renovated starting Monday. If you are willing to come and work (for free), maybe I'll get done sooner than mid-November. There will even be some Albanians in the crew, so you'll have ample entertainment. I'll still be online from the office, but it will be in between patients and on the ISDN line, not ADSL. Chronographos 08:54, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Didn't you said just few days ago that you have some profesional obligations at your work? Now you say it is your home.

Makes me wonder... is this just another one of the 1000s senceless lies "made by Chronographos"? Macedonian 00:20, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Page moved

The page Macedonian Slavs has been moved to Macedonians (ethnicity) by User:Bomac. Given that the vast majority of sources refer to these people this way and it is plain common sense to use the name that they use for themselves I strongly suggest that the name be left in this, compatable with Wikipedia policy, way until the dispute is finally solved. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 13:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

User Slavomacedonian said: Until the 1920th the Greek king published several documents where he describes the teritory Macedonia as occupied. Not taken back... occupied. Proof that the Slavomacedonians do have land-claims on Northern Greece, whether or not their dream can become reality is irrelevant. For this and many other reasons, the article stays as "Macedonian Slavs" until the UN has decided on an official name. Miskin 14:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The UN does not have anythin to decide concerning our ethnicity. For the UN and the rest of the world, we are Macedonians.

Here are 2 links for you from the United Nations:

UN pages where they use the term Macedonians (275 pages):

http://secap174.un.org/search?q=macedonians&ie=utf8&site=un_org&output=xml_no_dtd&client=un_org&num=10&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.un.org%2Fsearch%2Fun_org_stylesheet.xslt&oe=utf8

UN pages where they use the term Macedonian Slavs (4 pages):

http://secap174.un.org/search?q=%22macedonian+slavs%22&ie=utf8&site=un_org&output=xml_no_dtd&client=un_org&num=10&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.un.org%2Fsearch%2Fun_org_stylesheet.xslt&oe=utf8

So, you can see by yourself how wrong you are and how little arguments you have.

Just to remind you that the only talks we have is about the name of our country, but not at all about our ethnicity. And just to remind you that you are kind of loosing the "game", having on mind that about 55% of the countries in the UN, despite the Greek presure recognise as as Republic of Macedonia. On the other hand, just about 20% officially use another name, but even them (except Cyprus and Greece) use our original name (Republic of Macedonia) in the direct contacts with the country (The rest of 25% do not have official relations with Republic of Macedonia). Should I remind you that USA, China and Russia (3 of 5 full-time members of the Security council of the UN) recognise us under our original name. Should I remind you that the parliaments of Germany, UK and Italy already recomended their goverments to do the same (recognize us as Macedonia)?

Just to make it clear... We do not have any claims towards your teritory. We know that it was ours, but that was almost 100 years ago. In mean time you killed or expelled the majority of the Macedonian population in that area and only 1/10 stayed, from which many were pushed by endless list of represions to become Greeks.

Anyway, that teritory is yours now and noone can shange that. If you think that anyone will beleive you that Macedonia can attack Greece and take that teritory back, you have to be endlessly stupid.

If we wanted to attack you, we would push that to happen during Yugoslavia, whose army was one of the most powerful in the world. But, we did not, because we never wanted a war with anyone and because we know that now mostly Greeks live there. Macedonian 02:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Can you prove to us that the UN call these people Macedonian Slavs? You can't, the UN has not recognised this ethnic group under any name. They have only recognised their country as FYROM, that does not mean that they are recognised as Macedonian Slavs. The vast majority of sources call these people Macedonians. That is the name Wikipedia should use. You still haven't provided any good reason to call them Macedonian Slavs. REX 20:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The current picture is alright but...

Could you make it a bit neater? It looks odd with two B & W pics and two colored portraits. Also, what's wrong with St. Cyril being on that image list? ALL sources state his mother to be a Slav from Macedonia.

The Bulgarians claim St. Cyril to be "theirs", same as we claim that he is "our". Aldough I can not understand that Bulgarian position and I think is senceless (same as many of the sources), I have to respect that. As far as St. Cyril does not appear in the Bulgarian page, it is OK he not to appear on Macedonian page.

The Macedonian and Bulgarian delegation have always same treatment by Vatican when they visit St. Cyril's grave in Rome. Having on mind that Vatican has the best historical sources in the world and having on mind that they are not available to the public (not for now), non of us (Macedonian or Bulgarians) can completely exclude the posibility St. Cyril to belong to the other nation. Macedonian 02:48, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

The Catholic Encyclopedia says they were Byzantine Greeks from Thessaloniki, and came from a family of Senatorial rank. Chronographos 08:57, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

As I said before, you will only get satisfied when we reveal that the dinosaurs were in fact Greeks with bad taste of fashion.

Should I remind you here that any relevant historian can confirm you that it is senceless to talk about nationalities at that time of the human history?

St. Cyril and Methodius were obviously promoting and teaching the Slavic culture. Claiming that you have no Slavic blood in you, these 2 guys did not have influence over yourself.

And, to be honest, I really don't think they were giving a damn how they will be considered in future, when the modern nationalities and ethnicities will appear. If they had any big connection to this piece of land, they would not spend most of their lives far away, dedicating most of their lives to some other people that in no case can be Greek, Macedonian or Bulgarian. Macedonian 00:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

archived

this was like the biggest talk page ever - I went ahead and archived everything. Also, both this page and the article are protected from moves - please try to come to a comprimise people! Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 00:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

(People can still edit here normally right?) Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 01:41, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, I moved it to Macedonia (Slav) since that is the obvious wrong version :). Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 01:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, I do not see any point in continuing to fight with someone who wants to hide the Macedonian identity, but have no sources to support his claim. As you can see, only the Greek side keeps supporting the "Macedonian Slavs" version of the name. But, unfortunately for them no one on this world would identify itself as Macedonian Slav. So, if that page exists, it should clearly say: Population of 0. On the other hand about 2,5 people claim to be Macedonians (concerning the ethnicity, not the region). So, the page should clearly express that with having the name "Macedonian (ethnicity)" or something similar. Macedonian 02:53, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Please reffer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonia_%28Slav%29#What_is_the_real_deal_behind_the_naming_problem.3F.

There you can clearly read about the real problem between Macedonia and Greece. And, that is written by a German expert about the history of the region, which makes him very neutral. Especially knowing the historical connection bewteen Greece and Germany. By the way, he made this interview for Deutsche Welle, which again is neutral. Macedonian 02:57, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Why involve RN into this? It is obvious he does not care for the issue much. Let the man be and let us (try to) solve our dispute between ourselves. Chronographos 09:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone has to get involved. We obviously tried a lot to solve the issue (please see the archives), but it did not end up in a solution. Also in the "real world", the UN are the ones who are mediators, because we simply are not able to solve this by ourself.

No matter of your reasons (which I partly understand, but partly I think is crap full of lies), it is imposible to ask from someone to change his identity and to expect he to listen to you. We never had some other identity, for us to get back to it. The only identity we know for ourselfs is the Macedonian one, which is mostly Slavic, but no historian in the world can deny that our origin is also (more or less) from several antient tribes living on this area, including the Antique Macedonians (which you also have origin from, same as the Bulgarians and the Albanians).

So, whatever it takes, be sure that non of us can accept to forget our identity (the only one that we ever had) and quit our name (also, the only one that we ever had). That is something that can not be played with, something that we can not trade, something that we can not forget.

Actually, I don't understand what is the use for you this page to be Macedonian Slavs or Macedonians (Slav), when the rest of the world will keep using our original identity "Macedonians" (not Antique Macedonians, or Greek Macedonians)? What will the "Macedonian Slavs" name do for you, when NO ONE in the world will ever say that his ethnicity/nationality is Macedonian Slav. Completely senceless.

Also I would like to remind you on the "constructive" aproach by giving eurocents and pennies. Macedonian 01:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I asked him to on WP:AN/I. We have to solve this dispute, hopefully the current state of the page will motivate you into proving that your version is the correct version. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 16:18, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Uh no.... you're supposed to come to a comprimise people, not have it entirely one way or the other, mmk? I honestly don't care what the U.N. names them, because clearly that's not solving anything here. My own suggestion would be Macedonians (Slav), but for purposeful reasons its locked in a bad name that hopefully no one likes. (admin rules dictate I can't become involved in editing this article anyway) Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 22:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I have to react that Macedonian (Slav) can not be good solution. One simple reason: The modern Macedonians are mostly Slavs, but any historian can confirm that except the Slavic, we also have not Slavic origin, which is also quite strong.

Also, what is the use of a text "Macedonians (Slav)" or anything similar, when NO ONE in the world identifies himself with that name? Macedonian (Slav) is simply a non-existant nation.

That would be the same as identifying you as "English (West German)" (with a wild guess that your ethnicity is English. I hope you won't get angry at me because of this guess, I just wanted to make my point clear)

On the other hand, the existance of a separate Macedonian ethnicity today is complete reality, same of a separate Macedonian language and culture. That is something that any relevant source recognises. No matter of the history, that is a reality now, in this moment and obviously at least in future several decades. If 95% of the other sources can use "Macedonian" to identify my ethnicity, why would Wikipedia use something else? We can use Macedonian (ethnicity) in order to make it clear, but any artificial name products can only be a offensive politics and basic human rights breaking to over 2 million people around the world. Macedonian 01:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if you search the UN website you will find that they have used the name Macedonians to refer to these people quite a lot. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 16:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Folks, the article should be moved to Macedonians (ethnic group). I would say that Greek Macedonians are ethnic Macedonians indeed, but they are part of the Greek ethnic group. A Bulgarian in Macedonia is also a Macedonian, but he is part of the Bulgarian ethnic group. An Aromanian, An Albanian, etc. Calling these people Macedonian Slavs is taken as an insult by many of them, whether we agree or not, and we shouldn't call the article "Macedonian Slavs". Wikipedia has to move on and choose a practical solution. An internet encyclopedia is not the place to carry on crusades. Eventually, more Wikipedians should reach the same conclusion. -Alexander 007 18:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we protect from sockpuppets?

Is there a way how we can protect from sockpuppets? There has to be a way howto check the IPs of the users, so we can see are several users using the same IP. I know how to get someone's IP, but that user has to be online at the time. And it is very difficult to hunt all day long. Maybe some administrator can check that directly by checking the users, their edits and the IPs they used. Macedonian 03:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes Macedonian, there is a way to check their IP addresses. Administrators have access to a program which when they enter your user name it displays all the IPs which have used that account. That is how they identify sockpuppets. Let's hope that they open the box and bring it into practice on this talk page! It might reveal some very interesting facts. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 16:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know have you noticed, but these days several new users appeared concerning the Macedonia pages, which I strongly suggest they are sockpuppets. Their user pages have no information at all, neighter their disscution pages.

How can I (or anyone else) ask for the administrators to check if someone has several sockpuppets? I think a test like that can be very usefull concerning the Macedonia issue.

Also, I would like to ask if there is some other method of checking this, concerning that changing the IP address is well known method, already used by some anonimous editors which were already blocked. Macedonian 01:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

If you suspect sockpuppetry, you should take your suspicions to WP:AN/I and ask an administrator to check. All I know is that they can check the IP address. Other than that, I don't know what else they can do. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 16:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

page title

Like, what the ...? The article named "Macedonia (Slav)" talking about an ethnic group? User:RN, could you have picked a sillier and syntactically trivially incorrect name? --Joy [shallot] 22:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

LOL - I thought about "The people known to some as Macedonians and known to some others as Macedonian Slavs", but then that would be a bit verbose :). The point of it was to stop a move war, as you have probably guessed (even though its move locked). Feel free to change it to what you desire, of course :). Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 22:29, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

What about Macedonian Apes? Or Macedamia nuts? Or even Stuart Mackintosh? REX 22

33, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Page title> Macedonians (ethnic group). There is no other current ethnic group that calls itself "Macedonian" or "Macedonians", though there are portions of other, larger ethnic groups that may call themselves such (Greeks, Bulgarians, etc.). Let's move the page already. -Alexander 007 00:35, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The only proper name for this ethnic group is Macedonians. All other names are only Greek and Bulgarian propaganda against Macedonian people. How would Greeks felt if the article about Greeks had title "Indoeuropeans from Greece", or how would Bulgarians felt if the article about Bulgarians had title "Slavs from Bulgaria" or what ever. If Wikipeadia use any other name than Macedonians for this article then it obviously would be acceptance of Greek and Bulgarian POV. I am not Macedonian but Serb, and this Greek-Bulgarian crusade against Macedonians on Wikipedia looks really pathetic to me. Besides this, ancient Macedonians were not Greeks but Thracians. Greeks have no right to Macedonian name. User:PANONIAN

I agree, according to Wikipedia's naming policy and the available evidence, Macedonians is the name to use. REX 12:02, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Macedonia (Slav) is not a name for ethnicity, that's for sure. But, if Ryan Norton wants to "satisfy" the Greek propagandators, no one has the right to object... Bomac 16:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, RN is not trying to satisfy Greek nationalists. This is just a temporary solution. I think that the article should be at Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonians (ethnic group) or Macedonians (nation). All the evidence and the vast majority of sources suggest that Macedonians is the proper name for these people. REX 17:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that Macedonian (nation) is not OK, because there are 1000s of Macedonians that live abroad, but they do not have the Macedonian nationality (for different reasons). The other two are acceptable, but only if someone searches "Macedonian", to be redirected to this page.

You remember the article Macedonia (region)? When someone searches for "Macedonia", he is redirected to "Macedonia (region)" and latter there he is given option to go to "Republic of Macedonia". Macedonian 02:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I would directly ask for the administrators to move the page to "Macedonians", "Macedonians (ethnicity)" or "Macedonians (ethnic group)". Also, all references to this ethnic groups that can be found on the other pages should be instantly changed into "Macedonians" or "Macedonians (ethnic group)".

How can Wikipedia allow few assimilators to change the only name of this ethnic group to something so artificial as "Macedonian Slavs" or "Macedonian (Slav)"?

Also, I have to protest for the all lies given in the text for the Macedonians, where we are clearly represented as artificial ethnic group. WHAT A BU**SHI*!!!

Example: The page says that Tito made many Vlachs or Greeks to turn into Macedonians... What a terrible lie!!! Tito and all those communist crap were pushing us to forget our ethnicities and identify as "Yugoslavs".

Another Example: The page claims that many Macedonians were inprisoned because of pro-Bulgarian ideas... Another lie!!! They were inprisoned because of promoting the idea of separating Macedonia from Yugoslavia and making it independent country (like it happened in 1991st). Those people are free now, most of them still are alive... why they don't show any pro-Bulgarian ideas now, when Tito and Yugoslavia are far past?

Also, the treatment of the Macedonians in Bulgaria and Greece is not even mentioned. Is Wikipedia trying to hide all this, just in order to satisfy the Greek and Bulgarian propaganda?

All the pages relating Macedonia are completely addopted to the Greek and Bulgarian POV, no matter they are clearly assimilative and clear propaganda. How many human rights organizations should criticise Greece for Wikipedia finally to stop hiding those facts? (Here I am not talking just about the Macedonians in Greece. I am talking about all other minorities in Greece that share the same problems.)

Should I continue with examples? Macedonian 02:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Numbers

REX claims that the numbers haven't changed. What the hell is all that about then? http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=MKJ Revert on your own Miskin 15:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

No Miskin, you're wrong. Your link is from the 2000 edition. My link is from the 2005 edition. If you used your brain for a change and read what was at the heading of yours. REX 16:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Can someone help me to get more information about the Macedonians around the world, including their census number and estimates? The Macedonian diaspora is the most valuable proof that the Macedonian ethnicity/nation is not an artificial product of Tito's wishes, a claim completely supported by this page, despite of its clear pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian nationalistic and assimilative origin (which is not a POV of all the people belonding to these 2 nations).

Many of the Macedonians that live in those countries all around the world were out of Macedonia for generation, some of them for more than a century, far before Tito got important role in the area, but despite that, they still identify themselves as Macedonians. Macedonian 03:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

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I can help you a little. According to official census in Serbia in 2002, there were 25,847 Macedonians in Serbia, of which 14,062 lived in Central Serbia and 11,785 in Vojvodina. User:PANONIAN

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I think I can help you little more. I have one interesting book: Pavel Rudjakov, Seoba Srba u Rusiju u 18. veku, Beograd, 1995. The book speaks about Serbs who immigrated to Russia in 1752. The book also contain the list with recorded names and nationality of people who immigrated to Russia in the mentioned year. Many of those people were Serbs, but others belonged to several other nationalities. It is interesting that many of those declared that their nationality is Macedonian. And here are the names of some of these Macedonians: Stepan Andrejev, Sava Makrejev, Ivan Petrov, Fjodor Atepanov, Matvej Tokarev, Kirila Nebrikajev, etc. Present day Macedonians have very similar names. This list is a proof that people who considered themselves Macedonians existed in 1752. User:PANONIAN

Thank you a lot, PANONIAN. This might be very useful.

Even nowdays, in the 21st century the anti-Macedonian propaganda is so powerful that even Wikipedia does not call us by the only name we identify with, "Macedonians". Can you imagine how was that 100-150 years ago? No wonder that many sources from that time calls us Bulgarians, same as Wikipedia in 2005 calls us Macedonian Slavs. What a propaganda... Macedonian 03:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

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Disambiguation

Dear Bomac, you reverted the disambiguation paragraph:

In this article, "Macedonian" or, more precisely, "Macedonian Slav", refers to this ethnic group (regardless of place of residence), and not to other groups also called "Macedonian": the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, regardless of ethnicity; the inhabitants of the geographic and historical region of Macedonia, regardless of nationality or ethnicity; or the inhabitants of Greek Macedonia, regardless of ethnicity. This usage is disputed by some of these other groups.

Oh please, the heading [Macedonia (Slav)] of this article tells it what you've written in the disambiguation. So, there is no need of furthermore unnecesarry "cargoing" of this article. Bomac 20:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

characterizing it as "Greek NPOV is not NPOV". I am frankly surprised. I expected to be crucified by the Greek nationalists on this. Surely you acknowledge that "Macedonian" by itself can refer to many different groups of people, including not only the Slavic-speaking ethnic group, but also all citizens of the Republic of Macedonia (some of whom are not ethnically Macedonian) and all residents of a larger geographic area, part of which lies in the Republic of Macedonia, part in Greece. For that matter, historically, it can also refer to the ancient ethnic group (which may or may not be a Greek ethnic group, but is surely not Slavic), to a Bulgarian political party before the Balkan Wars, to an ancient Greek political party/faction led by Aeschines, etc.

Noone in Greece or Bulgaria will say that is "Macedonian" by nationality. In Greece and Bulgaria, Macedonia is only a region. Maybe in the internal (in Greece and Bulgaria) talk some will say that are from this region. So, this Wikipedia article is about ethnicity (Macedonians), and I haven't seen (neither heard) of any ethnicity originating from region. As for the ancient historic group (Macedonians), the heading of that article should be, in this example: Antic Macedonians (Noone says that these antic people were Slavic BTW). And, finally, about that parties you are mentioning, simply, in the heading you should add party - most of the Greek politicians and Wikiusers are extremely good in adding prefixes and suffixes :-) It's really simple.

There is nothing unusual about this—lots of other ethnic/regional/political/national groups have this kind of ambiguity)—and there is nothing in it which either promotes or denies any particular group's claims to the name. It is descriptive of the facts on the ground, that is, NPOV. The only thing which might be unusual is reporting that there is some dispute about the name. Again, the above wording does not say whether this is a stupid dispute or a valid dispute, just that it is a dispute. That seems indisputable, as witness this page. It doesn't even say it is a widespread or important dispute--just a dispute among some of the other groups.

I will mention again, that ethnicity should NOT be mixed with regions, antiquity or parties. Bomac 20:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Finally, let me recall that the Macedonian hero Goce Delčev called for the "elimination of chauvinist propaganda and nationalist dissentions that divide and weaken the population of Macedonia". --Macrakis 17:48, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes he called for this, so... ?!? Bomac 20:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I am frankly surprised that you are surprised. The sole aim of User:Bomac and his ilk is to appropriate the name, history and heritage of Macedonia for a particular ethnic group that forms a minority of the Macedonian population, to the detriment of the majority.--Theathenae 19:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Did you forgot that just some 30-40 years ago the use of the term "Macedonia" was completely banned in Greece? How come sudenly you decided to turn towards promotion of the region Macedonia, when just some years ago you were imprisoning the people who used this term?

Even the todays "Ministry for Macedonia and Trace" was called "Ministry for northern Greece".

How come suddenly you started using the name of Macedonia for streets, universities, libraries and so on?

Or, maybe you realised that you can not hide the existance of a separate Macedonian identity in northern Greece, so you decided that it would be easier to promote their history and culture as yours?

The people are not stupid, Mr. Theathenae. Maybe you can adopt the far history in the way you like it, but you can not hide what happened in the last 100 years. Macedonian 03:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae, you again confirm the fact that your only reason that you're here is only because of making quarrels and non-constructive talk. Bomac 20:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae, I can't say that I find most Greeks' behavior in this discussion any better than most Macedonians'.

Bomac, I can't say that I find most Macedonians' behavior in this discussion any better than most Greeks.

A plague on both your houses. I am not a Greek chauvinist (though I am of Greek background), and I am not anti-Macedonian (Slavic ethnic group or Republic of) in any way. I am just trying to find a sensible resolution to this ridiculous and embarrassing wrangling.

I agree, Bomac, that ethnic groups shouldn't be confused with regional identities, etc. And the current article title is silly. A reasonable title would be "Macedonians (Slavic ethnic group)". There would be other articles entitled "Macedonians (ancient nation)", etc. Clear, simple, consistent with Wikipedia policy. It is also consistent with Wikipedia policy to clarify any possible confusion about the meaning of the article, and terms used within the article, in a prologue, typically indented and in italics, (:xxx), in all the articles on related subjects. --Macrakis 01:49, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The title "Macedonians (Slavic ethnic group)" can not be acceptable, because our identity and origin are not 100% Slavic (aldough Slavic is dominant). On the other hand, there is clear distinction between Macedonians (or Macedonians (ethniciy)) and Antique Macedonians.

Only the uneducated can claim that we are same as the Antique Macedonians. But, also only the uneducated can deny any connection bewteen us and them.

If you really want to make difference between the modern and Antique Macedonians, we can simply add a introduction to this topic saying that "the modern Macedonians are not continuing of the Antique Macedonians, but also it is possible they to have genetic origin from them, same as many of the other ethnicities populating this area". We should clearly promote the internationally accepted idea that no one can have exclusive rights over the Macedonian name and history. Macedonian 03:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

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Why you simply do not write 4 different articles about Macedonians, and make a Macedonians disambiguation page, which can contain all 4:

• Macedonians (disambiguation)
  • Macedonians (ancient people), about ancient Macedonians
  • Macedonians (ethnic group), about modern Macedonians
  • Macedonians (regional affiliation), about all people who live in historic Macedonia region
  • Macedonians (nationality), about all citizens of the Republic of Macedonia.

User:PANONIAN

This is the best idea that I have heared. Also, the idea that I support the most.

But, the problem is that the issue we have with the Greeks and the Bulgarians is much deeper, because they are not prepared to accept a separate Macedonian nation, because that way they would have to recognize the Macedonian minority living in these 2 countries, same as their history and culture. As you can see, all they want is to push their POV that Tito invented the Macedonians, which were previously Bulgarians.

Quite idiotic claim though, having on mind that the Macedonians fighted against the Bulgarian army during the World War 2, starting from the period when no one even heared about Tito. Macedonian 03:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

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I see that this disambiguation page already exist. So, since it exist what problem these Greek nationalists have with this article? Greeks have no right to tell to Macedonians how they should call themselves. The name "Macedonian Slavs" exist only in the heads of Greek nationalists. Ethnic Macedonians do not use this name for themselves. User:PANONIAN

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To conclude: all nations of this World have democratic right to call themselves with the name what they choose. Greeks are the one who do not have right to tell to their neighbours how they should call themselves. One more thing: Greece was the birthplace of democracy, but seems that some modern Greeks do not understand what the word democracy means. This Greek crusade against Macedonians can be compared only with the crusade of Adolf Hitler against Jews. I maybe was little harsh, but it is the only concluision what one neutral observer like me can to have here. User:PANONIAN

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Name again

Well, the current name of the article is really bad. Even name "Macedonian Slavs" is better than "Macedonia (Slav)". The second name is supposed to describe region of Macedonia, not people. Could the title be changed into "Macedonians (Slavs)" or something like that? User:PANONIAN

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The title should be changed to "Macedonians (ethnicity)". Macedonian Slavs or anything similar can not be acceptable. Simply, the number of those people is 0, because no one identifies with this term. On the other hand, Macedonians is the identity (ethnicity and nationality) of more than 2 million people. The adding "(ethnicity)" can be added just in order to make distinction, but it shouldn't be used in assimilative purposes. Macedonian 03:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The title should be changed to Macedonians (ethnic group). User:PANONIAN also agrees with Macedonians (ethnic group), as well as some other people. First step is to have Administrators overrule the "poll", which was a fiasco and ended up a tie anyway. -Alexander 007 03:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Macedonians (ethnic group) seems fair. I don't see it offensive. Aldough enormous majority of sources calls us simply "Macedonians", the name Macedonians (ethnic group) for the page can be acceptable. We have to have respect towards the Greek POV, aldough I can not see any logic in it. Macedonian 03:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

It's probably time to contact administrators who are part of the Arbitration Committee, or even User:Jimbo Wales himself. -Alexander 007 03:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree completely. Macedonian 03:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you want to take it to the arbitration committee, but at any rate I moved it to ethnic group as that seems to be acceptable to most here. Any comments? Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 05:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I support the move. In any case, calling the article "Macedonian Slavs" seems to be against Wikipedia's spirit, since many of this ethnic group consider it an insult. I don't know of any other case where we have named an ethnic group's article by an insulting title. And we've seen how most (?) sources term them "Macedonians", so it's not an uncommon term. -Alexander 007 06:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I support the move as well. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 07:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

totallydisputed

I'm sick and tired of a certain group of users who disrespect everything. There was a poll, long discussions and all these are ignored by less than 10 editors. This is absolutely unfair and against the wikipedia (theoritical) spirit.

See also Talk:Macedonia#POV_dispute.3F. +MATIA ☎ 08:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

That poll was a draw. A Wikipedia:Consensus requires at least 60% support. In that poll, no side achieved 60% support, therefore there is no consensus. No Wikipedia:Consensus was arrived at through the long discussions. Again, there is no Wikipedia:Consensus which those editors are disrespecting. You are ignoring Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Dealing with self-identifying terms. That was arrived at through long discussions and is generally at Wikipedia:Consensus with the majority of Wikipedians and you are disrespecting it. Therefore, your claim that this is absolutely unfair and against the wikipedia (theoretical) spirit, is untrue. It is an attempt to follow the naming conflict policy. Regards, GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 09:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree fully with the Wikipedia procedure described at Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Dealing with self-identifying terms, which was arrived at by a consensus which overrules any premature poll that ended in a stalemate. The procedure is clear. -Alexander 007 09:45, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, what is the problem here? Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 09:55, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Reality is the problem? Or maybe WP policies and guidelines, I don't know. I had participated in long discussions in the past about Macedonia related articles. You may check Talk:Macedonia#POV_dispute.3F, Macedonia_(region)#External_links, agreed facts and many other pages were I had tried to help. Or you may file an RFC against me and have a neutral party check my contribs in depth. Or you can take a look at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/REX where I'm already involved and try to prove that I am not an elephant. And if you do these, then you can give a better answer than mine on your question "MATIA, what is the problem here?", I'm afraid I cannot, the same way I cannot parse all these or find more. With my best regards to RN. +MATIA ☎ 11:07, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

You're right: Reality is the problem. People X call themselves Macedonians, and many Greeks don't accept that self-determination, nor should they accept it if they don't want to. But reality aside, here in Wikipedia, we have policies. Self-determination is granted, per policy, but it is balanced a bit by the disambiguation policy (hence, Macedonians (ethnic group), satisfying both policies). -Alexander 007 11:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

+MATIA is evading the issues and the questions asked (as usual). +MATIA, I hope that you know that your unjustifiable attempts at blocking or stalling the true facts being used, as explicitly stated by the sources as NPOV and the Wikipedia naming policy. Your attitute can potentially be characterised with a absence of good faith if you persist in behaviour which could justifiably be characterised as trolling, by virtue of your above statement. I quote: Some trolls are critical of the project, its policies [you characterised Wikipedia's policies and guidelines as Reality is the problem? Or maybe WP policies and guidelines], its users, its administration, or its goals. Often, this criticism comes in the form of accusations of cabals, ilks, or campaigns, that are typically invested in a particular POV, invested in maligning a specific user [your obsession with REX ], and other similar claims. I hope you know that with your attitude and behaviour people might misinterpret your motives. In my opinion, your views are the problem. You are obsessed with naming this ethnic-group against its will and against the sources we already have. Do you see a problematc pattern here, I do. Regards, GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 11:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC)