Talk:Owamni

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SusanLesch (talk | contribs) at 21:06, 21 December 2022 (P.S.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Tags

@The Banner: Can you please identify the non-neutral text and/or the weasel words? ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:16, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Seconding Another Believer. What's the problem here, The Banner? I understand you're from Ireland and that you specialize in Michelin stars; does that mean you not recognize the James Beard awards as notable? As of 2019, Michelin doesn't rate Minneapolis restaurants. A James Beard is notable, and this chef, Sean Sherman has won three of them, all national not regional.
  • Regarding notability: WP:ORGCRIT is already satisfied, and I've added more sources below.
  • POV and Weasel words? The article is plain facts.
I'll have to remove the flags unless you can provide specifics. Kindly ping me as I am working on Wikipedia elsewhere. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:46, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weasel word: "a decolonized menu". My doubt about the notability is caused by the fact that you have two sources about the opening and three sources about a newcomer award. Nothing more. So the article fails to prove its notability. The Banner talk 08:15, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SusanLesch: I support tag removal if you're comfortable. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:22, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, let's give The Banner the rest of the day to state his specific criticisms. All I'm able to find is a long list of Stubs. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Aha, you prefer bashing me over looking at the article itself. The Banner talk 18:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner: you were shown extra courtesy here and at Minneapolis talk because you are a member of WikiProject Food and Drink. To repeat, I am looking for an article that you approve of. All I found is a list of Stubs. Nobody is bashing you. Can you please point to an example of what you're talking about? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My friend, you are looking at what I (as in the editor) did in the past. You are not judging the present article. The Banner talk 19:13, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid without any example being provided that the tags should come off, Another Believer. It is nonsensical to aspire to something undefined. Of course I'm still willing to work with you, The Banner, but will need to see a model. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another idea. A restaurant article written by someone else that you think is good! -SusanLesch (talk) 20:05, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I looked through the highest ratings in the WikiProject list and found mostly articles about carrots and avocados and one about Burger King. Maybe you're working in a rarified space, The Banner. I'll try to learn from what you've done. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are just looking for excuses to remove the tags instead of solving the issues. The Banner talk 11:50, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner Can you please identify any non-neutral text or remove the tag? ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Decolonized menu. The Banner talk 20:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please remove the non-neutral text from the article then remove the tag? Why are you making this so difficult? ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:46, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, as your companion is now adding loads of irrelevant or spammy info to the article. I have no doubt that removing that will upset you both. The Banner talk 22:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then please identify specifically which text is problematic. All you're doing now is adding a tag then refusing to remove when asked for justification. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, parts that can be removed as being irrelevant:

  • Architects Hammel, Green and Abrahamson built Owamni on the ruins of the Columbia Mill, in the space occupied from 1967 to 1990 by Minnesota's first Japanese restaurant, Fuji Ya.[4] Outside around the restaurant, 50 native species are planted, among them wild ginger, chokeberry, sumac, white cedar, lady fern, white pine, and purple prairie clover.[4]
  • In 2014, Sherman opened The Sioux Chef, a for-profit entity, to cater food, educate the public, and to run the Tatanka Truck food truck.[5] Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.[6] In 2016, the two submitted a restaurant proposal to the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board.[4] Around 2017, Sherman and Thompson started to build Owamni and founded the non-profit NATIFS (North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems).[5][7] In 2020, their NATIFS Indigenous Food Lab opened in the Midtown Global Market,[8] where a community fund allows them to give a bowl of pozole or chili and a cup of tea to any person who asks.[9]

Both parts say absolutely nothing about the restaurant. The Banner talk 22:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're talking about relevance and I'm asking about neutrality. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Shall I add a tag for advertising? Or shall I just remove everything what is irrelevant and spammy? The Banner talk 23:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're not identifying non-neutral text, so I am going to remove the one tag. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@The Banner: Since "decolonized menu" no longer links to Decolonization, do you still think the weasel tag is needed? If so, please identify a specific problem or remove the tag. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think it was. But at your request I have removed that weasel word, the tag and the spammy irrelevant information. The Banner talk 08:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've removed the notability tag, too. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:59, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see The Banner has reverted. I disagree but I'm not going to edit war over this. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner: Per WP:AUD and WP:THREE, we now have two national sources and one international: La Liste, The New York Times, and the James Beard Foundation. I believe that's all it takes to establish notability. Would you please remove your tags? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The second is just an essay, no policy or guideline. Per WP:AUD: Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. Note hereby strong indication what is something else then proof. The Banner talk 20:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner: Agreed about the essay but in WP:AUD you cut off the conclusion. And that's not fair. WP:AUD concludes, "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." This article more than meets notability guidelines. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that is not how I read it. Especially as the same page states here at Examples of trivial coverage: listing of award recipients. The Banner talk 21:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC) And yes, not even a star in the Michelin Guide makes a restaurant notable. What makes it notable is the significant coverage in other reliable, independent, in-depth sources.[reply]
@The Banner: How about I use one of Ireland's Michelin restaurants as a model? Which one do you suggest? Is long-form video from national news magazines acceptable? You must see I'm trying here, and we're not short of sources. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are really fascinated by what I have written in the past. And sorry, I am not writing your articles or assisting with that. I just apply my tough, critical look. The Banner talk 22:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SusanLesch: Please assume good faith. Digging for mud in an editors past and throwing it at them because they disagree with you is inappropriate. This is not the first time I have had to remind you to respect other editors. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Magnolia677: I don't know what you are talking about, or why you are following me around. I'm doing just fine, thank you. The Banner is teaching me a lot here. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your post just closed off my work for the day. No thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC) P.S. @Magnolia677: Would you please post to my talk page instead of interrupting conversations? No harm done. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner: I'll be back soon to complete the section on the unique menu. I hope you'll remove anything you don't like and the tags too when the time comes. I added a little bit back for context. Thank you, it's coming along. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to ping me each and every time. I have this page on my watchlist.
The use of restaurant reviews as sources that is frowned upon. Avoid them when possible. Reason for that is that it makes it too easy to stray into advertising. The Banner talk 15:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More sources

Here are a few more mentions: BBC, PBS Newshour, Le Monde, The New York Times, La Liste, New Yorker, NBC News. @Another Believer: if you can't use these, I would be happy to try to help expand this article but just not now; my time is booked for Minneapolis through January, conceivably until March. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article needs reliable, independent, in-depth sources. Passing mentions are not suitable. This article needs a lot of work. The Banner talk 08:24, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look? These are not passing mentions. Most are feature articles, some are long form videos. For example, The New Yorker published "How Owamni Became the Best New Restaurant in the United States". @The Banner: Would you please give an example of an article you like or wrote? One you feel satisfies all your criteria. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look at the present sourcing? The Banner talk 19:14, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Currently we have Pioneer Press, KARE-11 TV, Minnesota Public Radio, Vox Media, and WCCO-TV (CBS). Every single one is a reliable source per WP:RS. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Two sources are about the opening, the sources about a price they have won. Is that all info that is available? The Banner talk 19:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And you should judge (and when possible improve) the present article. Not focus on what I wrote in the past. Most of my articles are short by choice as I want to avoid what I see as spamming (like menus, qotes from reviewers etc.). You have to accept that, not bash it. The Banner talk 19:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair enough, The Banner. And then you should learn to accept that a "decolonized menu" is a legitimate accomplishment. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:39, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with decolonized menu but it is now an WP:EASTEREGG/weasel word, leading you to Decolonization what has nothing to do with a cuisine. The Banner talk 20:17, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have some questions about this section: The restaurant is co-owned by Dana Thompson and Sean Sherman, who is also the head chef.[1] As of 2015, Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.[2]

  1. ^ "Owamni in Mpls wins national James Beard award". MPR News. Archived from the original on 2022-06-15. Retrieved 2022-06-17.
  2. ^ Kormann, Carolyn (September 12, 2022). "How Owamni Became the Best New Restaurant in the United States". The New Yorker. Retrieved December 18, 2022.
  1. According to the first sentence Sherman is still head chef, something that is denied by the source of the second sentence.
  2. What is the relevance of an even "as of 2015" for a restaurant opened in 2021? What is the relevance of "Sioux Chief" anyway? Parent company? Never explained in the article.

Hope this can be fixed. The Banner talk 09:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it can be fixed. I can only work part-time on this. (I wish you would help. Your photo suggestion on Minneapolis was very helpful, thank you.) -SusanLesch (talk) 18:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And what is the relevance of this whole story in the section Business? As of now, it does not say anything about the restaurant itself. The Banner talk 21:36, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Future GA

@Another Believer: this article is potentially a GA. I understand that The Banner doesn't like my style, but we started with a Stub. Can you bear with me while I build this up a little more? A good first step would be DYK. If you disagree, I will happily remove everything I added. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Be bold and feel free to continue expanding the article as you see fit! I have no problem with The Banner identifying content concerns but I do not think the tags are necessary. I hope other editors will weigh in as well. I'd like to help out more here but I'm having to follow quite a few discussions and work on a bunch of other restaurant articles because of some recent deletion nominations. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks and wishing you best of luck. I'm going to hold off for now using The Banner's articles as a model. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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