Talk:Patsy Widakuswara

Redirect

Hi Gamaliel, I am writing to follow up on your restoration of this article after I redirected it to Voice of America, and I am wondering if you could explain your reasoning. After my attempts to revise and expand the article, it appeared to me that most of the content is covered in the Trump presidency politicization efforts section of the VOA article, but also with relevant context, and this article appears to be within WP:BLP1E, which seems to encourage a redirect under these circumstances. I don't feel that I found persistent coverage of the event sufficient to overcome WP:BLP1E exclusion, especially due to the context in which it happened, as documented in the VOA article. If you have any insight or guidance on this issue to share, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I believe that being the White House Bureau Chief of a major American news organization represents sufficient notability outside of this incident. Gamaliel (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply - I have not been able to find sources supporting WP:JOURNALIST notability for this role, which is part of why it seems WP:BLP1E currently applies. I am influenced by some recent AfD discussions, e.g. Heba Aly (journalist) AfD, Martina Castro AfD, Erica Johnson AfD, which seem to add support for a redirect here until secondary sources supporting notability are found. Beccaynr (talk) 16:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Support restoration. There are several issues with the redirect rationale here. Redirection is not a best practice as a proxy deletion. But most importantly, this is not a good application of WP:BLP1E, as it fails two of the three criteria as stated in the policy. She was not a "low-profile individual" before the VOA removal event or after. The event is significant and her role was substantial and it was well documented. For those reasons, it should be kept here as an article as we have plenty of WP:RS for WP:N and WP:V. On a more general note, we should be careful not to overemphasize policy shortcut names (ie. "one event" or "not news") and add an extended interpretation that is not in the actual policy. - Fuzheado | Talk 17:08, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

In my first comment above, I was trying to refer to the part of WP:BLP1E that states, The significance of an event or the individual's role is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources, and to clarify my comment, I also have not found sources to show she is not WP:LOWPROFILE - she is now the White House Bureau Chief of a major American news organization, but that does not appear to have translated into actively seeking media attention for herself in the way described in the WP:LOWPROFILE explanatory supplement, or having done so previously, with the exception of a brief 2013 Washington Post profile I found and added to the article, which does not appear to be enough. If I had found sources that appear sufficient to support WP:JOURNALIST or WP:BASIC notability, these would have likely eliminated the WP:BLP1E concern of giving undue weight to the event. From my view, this context and the overlap with the target article supports a redirect at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 20:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Revisions

An editor may a number of questionable revisions just now. Starting with one - why delete material from the lede that comports with wp:lede? And adding twov-why make it difficult for the reader by deleting headings that refer to and separate to distinct incidents from a multi paragraph section? The assertion of NPOV as a basis is not convincing. In fact, for an experienced editor to make these claims, I'm confused as to what is going on. It's pretty egregious deleting going on. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:95FD:29F8:EB8A:7855 (talk) 18:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi IP 2603, according to WP:BLPUNDEL, To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. The discussion above includes references to various policies and considerations related to WP:BLP policy, and this is even more important when information has continued to be added based on one news source about events related to a living person, particularly when it was framed by section headings that could highlight controversy, and if controvery is emphasized in the lead. For example, according to BLP policy, Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 19:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

There is zero sensationalist as to what you are deleting. You sought to turn the entire article into a redirect. You failed. Now you are trying to eviscerate it. That is not a case of you following rules. You cite rules - such as wp:lede. But then in a perfect exhibit of opposite day editing, do precisely what the rule says you should not do. And you delete headings. Same thing. These obviously do not improve the article. They make it worse. You are smart. Surely you understand this. And understand how obvious it is. Let's bring in a third party, since you appear disinclined to edit in the manner that wp calls for. Agreed? 2603:7000:2101:AA00:5878:D9D:5E2F:BDE3 (talk) 17:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

IP 2603, my primary concern is policy, including WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. For example, there is a section in NPOV policy, titled WP:STRUCTURE, that includes, Pay attention to headers, footnotes, or other formatting elements that might unduly favor one point of view or one aspect of the subject.

Overall, this is a brief article, so a lead summarizing an already-brief article seems contrary to MOS:LEADELEMENTS, and an attempt to call further attention to what seems to be an insignificant event (covered by a brief burst of news without indication of enduring significance) in the lead, further seems WP:UNDUE and contrary to WP:BLP policy to avoid sensationalism.

Whether this article should be redirected could be further discussed at Articles for Deletion, but perhaps two briefly-covered events without enduring significance and limited biographical coverage is sufficient for standalone article. Also, since my first comment in this section, I added information from a source that reported on the September 2023 incident, and another editor edited the lead to include a focus on the Pompeo incident. I think the recent lead edit is an improvement more aligned with NPOV policy than what I had removed, but at minimum I think it is not necessary based on the article size. Beccaynr (talk) 18:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm just struggling with the simplest improper edits you made. And getting nowhere. What you have done flies in the face of wp:lede. Obviously. Your edit led to it in no way summarizing the text below. All of your acronym citations are irrelevant here - you are .. is it intentional or are you really misunderstanding? .. ignoring completely the essence of wp:lede. Your other edits seem similarly off. But I though we could at least start with you by addressing this very simple edit. But instead - as with your above discussion where two editors had to disagree with your attempt to wipe this out and replace it with a redirect .. you wrote long (thats fine with me) but miss-the-point remarks .. and I can't figure out what underlies your efforts here. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:5878:D9D:5E2F:BDE3 (talk) 04:12, 15 February 2024 (UTC)