Talk:Qing dynasty

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 July 2023

Please separate this hatnote in the "History" section, to include {{For timeline}} parameter.

For a chronological guide, see Timeline of the Qing dynasty.

2001:4451:8285:B00:9180:5873:29D0:FDF9 (talk) 04:14, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Yue🌙 04:28, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Zheltuga Republic

Zheltuga Republic was not a successor of the Qing dynasty. It was simply a short-lived proto-state established by some Russian and Chinese gold miners in the Amur river basin, and then crushed by the Qing forces. Source: [1] Likewise, other regimes such as the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (as established by revolt leaders) were not considered successors of the Qing dynasty either. --Wengier (talk) 23:44, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-protected: Overkill?

Am I the only one who is confused why this page is extended-protected? It doesn't seem like a controversial enough topic for the designation. Other Wikipedia pages that are arguably far more controversial; Mao Zedong, Chinese Communist Party, Xi Jinping; all are only semi-protected. Should this page be changed to semi-protected as well? As the topic reads I think that designating this page as extended-protected seems like a bit much. 141.155.35.58 (talk) 01:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The topic of this article is extremely controversial because many modern claims of sovereignty by the PRC and ROC are derived from arguments about the Qing dynasty's territoriality and suzerainty. POV pushing and sock editing were perennial problems before protection was upgraded and extended in 2021. Yue🌙 05:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Start of dynasty

As the sources given in the article (such as this) have already showed, historians usually date the Qing dynasty started in 1644 (at least for historiography purposes), even though Hong Taiji had proclaimed the dynasty in 1636. For example, in the book "China's Last Empire - the Great Qing" (final volume of the "History of Imperial China" series published by the Harvard University Press), the "Emperors and Dynasties" section clearly lists that the Qing dynasty spans from 1644-1912 in page 292, even though it does list Hong Taiji as an emperor of the Great Qing in page 291. Similarly, historians usually consider the Qin dynasty started in 221 BC, even though the Qin state itself was established much earlier than this. --Wengier (talk) 18:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The first Qin emperor (Qin Shihuang) proclaimed himself as emperor of China after 221 BC, he was already a crown king of Qin state before the complete conquest of six nations, therefore the empire of Qin began in 221 BC pursuant to his proclaimation at that year. The imperial dynasty of Qing was started in Manchuria in 1636, it did not turn to an empire only after the seize of Beijing, they were not even in the same basis. Sheherherhers (talk) 02:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Whether the state itself was an empire or not does not really matter, and it is simply not true that it had to be an empire in order to be called dynasty. For example, the Zhou dynasty is considered a ruling dynasty of China even if it was NEVER an empire. Clearly whether the dynasty was ruled by an emperor or king was not intended to be the deciding factor of the start year, and one can indeed argue that the Qin dynasty started in 256 BC (when it conquered the Zhou dynasty) or even earlier, although historians usually date the Qin dynasty started in 221 BC because it "unified" China at that time. --Wengier (talk) 15:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024

How come the pre-1644 history of the dynasty is almost gone and neglected from the brief lead??

The fact is that the Qing empire was emerged from a Jurchen Khanate of later Jin established in Manchuria (including modern Northeast China and Outer Manchuria), which had been its own realm and proclaimed as an imperial dynasty much earlier before the capture of Beijing . 1644 was merely the dynasty first entered to the traditional Han Chinese dominions (入主中国 or traditionally 从龙入关), before that it had conquered several territories such as Mongol khanates in eastern Inner Mongolia and Joseon of Korea outside of Manchuria as an independent state. It's totally misinformed to just cut off the period of emergence before 1644 which is significant to remark the dynasty's origin and began it in 1644.

If this theory of Qing started its rule in 1644, how the first emperor of Qing Hong Taiji should be defined when he never entered Beijing and established his rule in China? Does the wikipedia regard the Qing dynasty between 1636 and 1644 as non-existence in history or separate nation?Sheherherhers (talk) 02:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 02:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Several academic soureces support my claims;

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314596977_China_imperial_8_Qing_or_Manchu_dynasty_period_1636-1911

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-history-of-inner-asia/qing-and-inner-asia-16361800/F843687E97193ED212B2CF1BDEBA3357

https://history-maps.com/story/Qing-dynasty

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvp2n341

https://minerva-access.unimelb.edu.au/items/e0b36c1b-bc50-439b-8230-25332e98f38b Sheherherhers (talk) 02:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Some trimming was done for the article due to its length. As for the year, here is a similar story: the Qin (state) conquered the Zhou dynasty in 256 BC; the Zhou dynasty was NEVER an empire, yet it is considered a dynasty of China, and historians usually date the Qin dynasty started in 221 BC. Of course one can argue that the Qin dynasty started in 256 BC (or even earlier), but still Wikipedia regards 221 BC as the start of the Qin dynasty according to the majority view. And for the Qing dynasty's start, the year 1644 is the majority view whereas 1636 is the minority view, which should be acknowledged. Regardless of the views, the first paragraph already explicitly mentions both years (1636 and 1644); they are both listed in the encyclopedia. However, the first paragraph of the article intends to be summative and brief, and indeed as you can see there is a too long tag for the article (which you seem to try to completely disregard). --Wengier (talk) 15:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course how Qing itself viewed such things are also very important. In the "Chinese history textbook" (中國歷史教科書) approved by the Qing court and published in 1910, page 4 clearly shows that the Qin dynasty started in 221 BC, and page 5 also clearly shows that the Great Qing dynasty started in 1644 AD, following the Ming dynasty that was established in 1368. These are the official dates from the Qing itself. Also, the late Qing history textbook "中國歷史教科書，原名本朝史講義" states in page 1 that "The history of our dynasty is part of the history of China, that is, the most recent history in the whole history. China was founded five thousand years ago and has the longest history in the world. And its culture is the best among all the Eastern countries in ancient times. Its territory covers almost 90% of East Asia, and its rise and fall can affect the general trend of the countries in Asia. Therefore, the scope of Chinese history actually accounts for most of the entire history of the East..." (本朝史者，中國史之一部，即全史中之最近世史。中國之建邦，遠在五千年以前，有世界最長之歷史。又有其文化為古來東洋諸國之冠。其疆域奄有東方亞細亞之什九，其興衰隆替足以牽動亞細亞列國之大勢。故中國史之範圍，實佔東洋史全體之大半). The textbook also considers the year 1644 very important, officially known as “本朝之定鼎” (page 46), whereas the pre-1644 history is considered the history background of the dynasty. --Wengier (talk) 18:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

My suggested revision as follows:
The Qing dynasty , officially the Great Qing, was a Manchu-led conquest dynasty of China and the last imperial dynasty in Chinese history. The dynasty was emerged from the Jurchen-led Later Jin dynasty established in Manchuria (present-day Northeast China and Outer Manchuria). It subsequently proclaimed as an empire in Shenyang in 1636, seized control of Beijing in 1644, which is considered the start of the dynasty's rule in China. The dynasty lasted until 1912, when it was overthrown in the Xinhai Revolution...

Efforts had been made to reduce the length of the article (especially the lead), considering that the article is already very long (with a "too long" tag clearly shown). And regardless the start year (the minority view or the majority view, 1636 or 1644), I do not think there is need for the first paragraph (which intends to be brief) to mention the pre-events (before BOTH 1636 and 1644). Instead, the Later Jin dynasty is mentioned and explained in the second paragraph, and there is no repetition needed for the first paragraph. Otherwise, we can repeat various other events in the first paragraph too, which are however not intended for the first paragraph (especially considering that editors were trying hard to reduce its length). The point "conquest dynasty" is valid, but there is a lot more to be said as well, such as how Qing considered itself, although such things may not really fit in an article which is already very long, especially in the very beginning. --Wengier (talk) 15:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)