Talk:Ruscism

Some possible sources

Contemporary:

• Shenfield, Stephen (2016). Russian fascism: traditions, tendencies and movements (Second ed.). London: Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781315500058. ISBN 9781315500058.
• Umland, Andreas (January 2005). "Concepts of Fascism in Contemporary Russia and the West". Political Studies Review. 3 (1): 34–49. doi:10.1111/j.1478-9299.2005.00018.x.
• Gregor, A. James (1998). "Fascism and the New Russian Nationalism". Communist and Post-Communist Studies. 31 (1): 1–15. ISSN 0967-067X.
• Motyl, Alexander J. (23 April 2015). "Is Putin's Russia Fascist?". Atlantic Council.
• Norris, Stephen M. (2015). ""The East is a Delicate Matter": Russian Culture and Eurasianism". The Russian Review. 74 (2): 187–190. ISSN 0036-0341.
• Kolstø, Pål (2016). "Crimea vs. Donbas: How Putin Won Russian Nationalist Support—and Lost it Again". Slavic Review. 75 (3): 702–725. doi:10.5612/slavicreview.75.3.0702.
• March, Luke (2007). Elusive Russia: Current Developments in Russian State Identity and Institutional Reform under President Putin. Leuven University Press. ISBN 978-90-5867-608-5.
• Stanley, Jason (26 February 2022). "The antisemitism animating Putin's claim to 'denazify' Ukraine | Jason Stanley". The Guardian. Retrieved 6 March 2022.

(Counter argument:)

• Laruelle, Marlène (2021). Is Russia fascist? Unraveling propaganda east and west. Ithaca [New York]: Cornell University Press. ISBN 9781501754135.

Historic:

• Gottfried, Paul E. (2017). Fascism: The Career of a Concept. Cornell University Press. p. 47+. ISBN 978-1-60909-183-5. (Soviet Union totalitarianism, "Red fascism")
• Rogger, Hans (1964). "Was There a Russian Fascism? The Union of Russian People". The Journal of Modern History. 36 (4): 398–415. ISSN 0022-2801. (Union of the Russian People)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jr8825 (talk • contribs)

The question is which of those sources actually cover the subject of Rashism (a.k.a. Russicism or Ruscism) if this phenomenon even exists. Veverve (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

• Here is a typical argument on this subject (from [1], probably qualify as a PhD thesis, written in 2012):

It is undeniable that Vladimir Putin’s rise to power bears significant resemblance to that of Adolf Hitler. This paper has demonstrated that, like Hitler in Weimar Germany, an authoritarian leader can come to power by capitalizing on the defeated mindset of a people who have undergone significant hardships. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the Yeltsin government’s approach to democracy significantly affected the average Russian. The people of Russia, like the Weimar Germans, felt betrayed. Russians share a belief that their great power status was taken from them without ever having lost a battle, that they have had to relinquish unfairly both territory and resources, and that they have had to endure both economic and political turmoil as a result. These feelings of betrayal, in conjunction with both Putin’s exploitation of the chaotic conditions of 1990s Russia and his authoritarian leadership style that promotes revanchism, irredentism and Russian fascism, have resulted in Putin’s assumption of ultimate power in Russia. The answer to the title question, as demonstrated by the comparison of the rise to power of Hitler and Putin, is that Putin, in many ways, is already Russia’s Hitler

My very best wishes (talk) 01:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Your source is about Russia under Vladimir Putin, not Raschism. Veverve (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

These are all opinion pieces. BritishToff (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

This article from an Australian newspaper might come in handy somewhere

A discussion on far left and far right perspectives on Putin https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/why-the-far-left-and-far-right-can-t-resist-putin-20220304-p5a1rw.html Gusfriend (talk) 01:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

But how is Putin related to the alleged rachism phenomenon? Veverve (talk) 23:49, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Editing problems

@Tsans2:
1. Your edit:

• none of the sources are about "rachism" apart from this one which is a report on the opinion of a local deputy and thus not a RS to establish scientifically a concept.

2. Your edit:

• [2], [3]: report on Danilov's opinion, nothing about The term "rashism" is in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine. And the opinion of Danilov is not a scientific opinion or worthy of being mentioned.

3. Your edit:

• Mykola Tomenko's opinion is irrelevant.

Veverve (talk) 23:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

disagree. it's just your own view what is relevant and what is not. Tsans2 (talk) 23:57, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

@Tsans2: WP:DUE, WP:RS. You have also added back all the non-reliable or unrelated references I had removed without justifying yourself. Veverve (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Justification for removal

@Tsan2: Let us review each of those source I have removed in this revert which you have added back numerous times. I had provided a rationale in my edit summaries for each of those removals; since you continue not to communicate, I will have to do it again here for those. The subject of the article, while vague, appears to be Russian Fascism/Raschism, an alleged specific form of Fascism, just like Maoism, Stalinism or Marxism-Leninism are a form of Marxism.

• Рашизм і фашизм: знайдіть дві відмінності: despite the title, no mention of the topic, only numerous Conservative to far-right topics discussed here and there without any coherence between the topics. No mention of what the source is supposed to support in the article: "considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome"
• "Fascism and the New Russian Nationalism" : brief mentions of Fascism in Russia, the article is about Russian nationalism; no mention of the "expansionism" in the article, only that "For Ziuganov, Stalinism shorn of its Marxist-Leninist trappings, infused with nationalist and statist sentiments, rendered politically homogeneous, 'organic' in character (Ziuganov, 1997 p. 85), developmental in intent, and expansionist in practice, constitutes a political ideal." (p. 11; my emphasis), and that "What seems evident is that a plausible case can be made for the presence of Fascist elements in the political ideology of some of the major opponents of the Yeltsin administration in post-Soviet Russia. That those elements constitute the grounds for identifying its proponents as 'right-wing extremists' is, at least initially, counterintuitive." (p. 12)
• "Is Putin's Russia Fascist?": the article states some people have called Russia under Vladimir Putin Fascist; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism, simply that "Fascist regimes have charismatic dictators with hyper-masculine personality cults. These regimes generally evince a hyper-nationalist ethos, a cult of violence, mass mobilization of youth, high levels of repression, powerful propaganda machines, and imperialist projects. Fascist regimes are hugely popular—usually because the charismatic leader appeals to broad sectors of the population. Putin and his Russia fit the bill perfectly."
• "Is it Time to Drop the F-Bomb on Russia? Why Putin is Almost a Fascist": the article states Russia under Vladimir Putin is almost Fascist; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism
• "The antisemitism animating Putin’s claim to 'denazify' Ukraine": the article states Russia under Vladimir Putin is Fascist; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism
• "Ідеологія рашизму має бути засуджена світом, як нацизм і фашизм – історик": copy-paste of an "opinion [...] expressed in a post on Facebook by historian, chairman of the Ivano-Frankivsk Regional Council Oleksandr Sych", not a notable nor reliable opinion although it does discuss the topic
• "Amazon sells clothes with Russian military Z symbol", "Автомобили с буквой Z замечены в Уральске и Шымкенте", "Авто с наклейкой Z: водителя оштрафовали в Нур-Султане": absolutely no mention of the topic or anything related to political ideology, it simply describes how the "Z" symbol is used with no mention of Fascism. The Times article states: "Russians around the world have been daubing the white letter on black backgrounds to denote support for their army fighting in Ukraine. The adoption of the 'Z' as a symbolic expression of support is viewed as particularly controversial as it was originally daubed on tanks attacking Ukrainian cities. [...] Police in Kyrgyzstan, a former Soviet republic, said they would fine drivers featuring it on their cars. Czech police will treat the 'Z' symbol in the same way as the swastika." tengrinews.kz reports that in Kazakhstan the symbols "Z" and "O" are forbidden to be displayed on cars. So those source support most of the information in the line they are in front of, but no link is made, either in the WP article or in the newpaper articles, between the "Z" and Russian Fascism/Raschism.
• I will not check the sources supporting what is written later about the Z symbol, as the symbol's link to the alleged Raschism has no been proved; those parts should simply be removed

Veverve (talk) 21:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with regard to sources about letter Z. As about others, you are simply saying they are not on the subject, whereas they are actually on the subject of the alleged modern-day fascist political system and ideology in Russia (aka Rashism). I am not saying all these claims are completely true, but they are notable enough and sufficiently well sourced to be included on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @My very best wishes:

  • you are making you own WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. No reliable source has stated what you described. Those who have claimed the Putin gevernment was Fascist or had Fascist elements never used the term "Rashism", nor have they described the alleged Fascism or Fascist elements as part of a sub-ideology. At best those claims can be a section at Russia under Vladimir Putin, but cannot be an article.
  • you completely avoided the criticism of WP:FICTREF, you seem to even implicitly support those fictitious references. Veverve (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I am sorry, but no, this is all sourced or can be easily sourced. Word "Rashism" ("рашизм" in Russian) is an obvious combination of two words: "Russian" and "fascism". Speaking about English language sources, here are a couple of scholarly books saying it [4],[5]. Speaking about Russian language sources, this is very widely used [6] (I am linking only to books). Speaking about Ukrainian sources, well, you know. But again, this page is not about this specific word (there are many words to define the same), but about the subject of the alleged contemporary Russian fascism.My very best wishes (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes:

• So you claim that when I wrote e.g. no mention of what the source is supposed to support in the article: "considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome", there is indeed a mention of this in the article an I am deliberatly lying or have completely missed those parts?
• I have already refuted your two sources here
• The existence of a word does not mean it meets the encyclopedic criteria Veverve (talk) 17:06, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, in your diff [7], not only you did not refute anything (because the discussion of Rashism in these books is on the subject of this page), but you actually supported what I just said, i.e. the flat denial of RS on your part. My very best wishes (talk) 17:12, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: The fact a word is used in a certain way is not related in any way to the topic. At best is it worth a Wiktionary entry. And you have once again ignored all my other arguments.

Either provide reliable sources that state the sub-ideology of Raschism is also called Russicism or Russian Fascism and provide details of them. The subject of the article is not "Suspicions of Fascism during Vladimir Putin's presidency", otherwise this would be only worth a section at Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 17:21, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• First of all, you are not listening. I just said that the subject of this page is NOT word "Rashism", but the alleged fascist ideology and practice in that country. Why do you think they attacked Ukraine? These RS are providing one of the explanations. Moreover, the RS just have been already provided, right on the top of this page [8] and in this thread. My very best wishes (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @My very best wishes:

  • You have not conceded a single one of my points, which I interpret as you supporting the use of FICTREFs and disagreeing with all of the points I have made
  • So the subject of the article is "Fascism in Russia", not "Russian fascism"/"Raschism"/"Russicism". I am tired of playing with words. And yes, it revolves around words, as the words "Raschism" and "Russicism" are used by Ukrainians as catch-all, vague anti-Russian terms.
  • Why do you think they attacked Ukraine? These RS are providing one of the explanations which ones? No RS says that, and neither does the article. Veverve (talk) 17:42, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• From the very emergence of this claim about modern-day Russian state-promoted fascism, it was used specifically to explain the roots of Russian military aggression, starting from the First Chechen war. See how it was used by Dzhokhar Dudayev ([9] - this not a great source, but sufficient to document his words. My very best wishes (talk) 18:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @My very best wishes:

  This is not a RS at all - Dudayev is not a RS and the source which quotes him is not a RS either -, and there is no mention of Ukraine in your source. And the original source of this source is a livejournal.

  Again, you have ignored all my other arguments. Veverve (talk) 18:22, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith and Jr8825: since it appears me and My very best wishes cannot come to a conclusion, what is your opinion? Do you disagree with my removal of those sources I have discussed at the top of this sub-section ("Рашизм і фашизм: знайдіть дві відмінності, etc.) along with the claim(s) they accompany? Veverve (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. The comparisons of Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and the Nazi invasion in 1941 are so abundant in discussions and so obvious. Here is just a random example in Russian language sources [10]. Author say: Today the heroic Ukrainian army is saving the world from a new fascist plague. No matter if you agree or not, it now appears so frequently in political and historical discourse that we can not ignore the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 18:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

You have completely avoided almost all of my previous arguments. Veverve (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I haven't read the entire discussion in-depth, but I am leaning towards Veverve's side. It definitely seems like at least some of these sources don't support the claims being given (eg. the articles that clearly say Putin is only nearly a fascist) or are only tangentially related to the article topic. I can't speak for all the sources, as I have not read all of them, but I think it's pretty obvious at least some should be removed. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 20:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Sure, welcome to check sources and improve. However, this page is currently under AfD, and the scope is not clear. There are two options based on the AfD discussion I think. One of them is making a general page Russian fascism (instead of current disambig. page) that would cover a long period of time, i.e. sub-subjects that appear in the disambig. page. Another option would be to cover only the more narrow subject of "Ruscism/Rashism", i.e. the aggressive fascist-like ideology and practice of the current regime in Moscow, starting from First Chechen war (our page Putler would be a sub-page of such page). I think one could do both pages. I think someone recently suggested good sources here [11]. Something like that? Yes, that also seem to be on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 00:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

As about that source, originally published in a journal by Duke University [12], that is actually a great source on this subject (do not judge by the title!). My very best wishes (talk) 01:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Follow-up

@My very best wishes and HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith: are we all agreeing on the remarks I made that those sources along with what they support must be removed from the article? If no, please explain why, e.g. by showing that the information the sources are supposed to support in the WP article are indeed in said sources and thereby refuting my FICTREF claims. Veverve (talk) 16:46, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

No, I do not think the discussion above shows agreement. As about sources, many new just appeared, such as [13], [14],[15],[16],[17], etc., along with older ones [18]. Sources on this subject are very easy to get. My very best wishes (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

And of course this: [19]. Unfortunately, the cited article by Timothy D. Snyder is behind paywall. My very best wishes (talk) 22:03, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: I did not discuss any of those sources you have just now presented. Please stay on topic.

Do I have to individually ask you e.g.: "show me in 'Рашизм і фашизм: знайдіть дві відмінності' where you see any mention of the topic and the fact that Rashism is 'considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the ‘special civilizational mission’ of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome'."? This is what this discussion is about, about whether or not those sources along with what they support must be removed from the article. Veverve (talk) 22:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

"where you see any mention of the topic"? Whole article is obviously on the subject (Google translation: [20]). Does it support such exact wording? No, I think it would better be used to support another statement (I just fixed it). Also, the lead could be rephrased, but certainly not in the way you did [21], i.e. a removal of sourced and explanatory description in the lead and replacement it by a meaningless phrase. My very best wishes (talk) 00:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: no, it is not about the topic at all apart from having the word in the title. And no reliable source talks about Raschism being the current ideology of Putin's government, even less of said ideology being linked to the Moscow, Third Rome concept. Veverve (talk) 12:20, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

You have no answered concerning the other sources I mentioned. Do you believe they have to be kept and that they contain the information I stated they did not? Veverve (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I guess your silence means you agree on my removal of those sources and the information they were supposed to support but in fact do not. Veverve (talk) 13:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Tsan2's revert

@Tsans2: you have restored those information which I had removed since they were not included in the sources. Your justification is "sources are ok". Please explain where you found all those information in the sources; as for me, I have already produced an analysis explaining why none of those information are to be found in the sources given.
You also restored the "the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of the Russian Federation in the 21st century" (I had changed it to "the alleged political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of the Russian Federation in the 21st century" with @Buidhe:'s support). Please also explain why you have gone against the consensus here. Veverve (talk) 14:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

New additions

@Tsans2: I see you have made a new addition. Here are my thoughts:

• "The terms rashism and rashist are in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine, as well by journalist, influencers, bloggers, etc." -> none of the three sources state this. You have quoted one UNIAN article, one defence-ua.com article which is not a RS from what I understand, and one glavcom.ua article. Each article uses the expression (either one or the other, or both), but none of those articles state the expressions "are in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine, as well by journalist, influencers, bloggers, etc." This is pure WP:SYNTH and WP:OR at best. And what does "etc." mean here?
• Why should we care (WP:DUE) about what Oleksiy Danilov has to say?
• Russian philosopher Mikhail Epstein in 2022 has described the whole current Russian society as 'schizo-fascism,' meaning: 'fascism that is hiding under the mask of fighting against fascism.' " + "President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky calls current political regime in Russia as well as Russian invasion as Russian fascism." -> This is a consideration for Fascist (insult). Moreover, the vague consensus on this article's scope is that it is not any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin.

So, unless you can justify those additions, I will remove them. Veverve (talk) 10:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

1. Common usage is common, as the grass is green. but okay, I will rephrase it.
2. Nope, why should you care? because, you are the one who wanted to delete this article, and now, you are obsessed with it? it's okay for everyone - what Danilov says, but not you. So please, justify why we shouldn't care what top war politician of Ukraine says officially and condemns russians in context of russian fascism.
3. This is a consideration for Fascist (insult). - nope, you don't know the topic neither you speak Ukrainian or Russian to understand it. Regarding this: Moreover, the vague consensus on this article's scope - it's just your idea or statement. You wrote it, you defend it, I'm lucky with that, but don't make it a point here.

Tsans2 (talk) 07:52, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Tsans2:

1) none of the sources you have added claim this expression is common

2) we should not care about what politicians have to say in general when it comes to political science. Why is his opinion worth more than any other politician? I will not answer your ad hominem attack, but I ask you to stop.

3) "you don't know the topic" -> Then please, since you created this article, explain what the topic is supposed to be at Talk:Russian fascism (ideology)#Scope of the article. Meanwhile, my opinion and that of @Buidhe: seem to form a consensus on the basis of a scope to say that any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin does not consitute the scope of the article.

I will revert those additions once again, because you are supposed to discuss before adding as per WP:BRD; you clearly do not have "a better understanding of the reverter's concerns". Veverve (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Veverve 1) I don't mention common - don't mess up

2) why it cares, because it's an official position. this article (the one you wanted to delete) is not about only political science, it's more broad topic. so we do care what Dudaev says, Putin says, Danilov says.

3) it's only your idea. no one revert my edits, but only you. you have been banned for a week from editing this page. and what? no one reverted my edits. what does that mean?

You also deleted not only the text I've returned, but also new thoughts of Ukrainians historians on Rashism. You thought I wouldn't see this? Or you think that the views of Ukrainian historians are not worth mentioning here?

I reverted my edits because you even don't read the article. please be careful. Tsans2 (talk) 21:44, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Tsans2:

• "The terms rashism and rashist started circulating in usage among military and political elites of Ukraine and media." -> none of the source says that the terms rashism and rashist started circulating in usage among military and political elites of Ukraine and media. This is FICTREF and OR from primary sources.
• it's an official position the official position of what? this politician?
• You have not expressed any opinion when 12 days ago I asked for feedback on what the scope of the article should be. Do you want to change the lede to something akin to "In Russia, there has been and is some fascist movement and groups as well as claims that some groups in Russia are fascists and comparisons between the actions of some groups in Russia and past fascist regimes"? Feel free to suggest that this article become the most catch-all possible; from the person who defined the scope of the article as "the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russia in the early XXI century based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, intolerance, xenophobia, paternalism, Soviet-style imperialism, the use of Russian Orthodoxy as a moral doctrine, and on geopolitical instruments of influence, such as nuclear arsenal, energy resources etc.", I find it quite strange you now suddenly want the scope to be as broad as possible.
• You have also been banned for a week from editing this article. And you have been reverted by another user, and never argued back on this revert. I have nothing against you personnaly, if this is your concern. I will admit one thing: I appear to be the only one who cares enough that the Wikipedia standards be applied to this article to be working on it.

Per WP:BRD, I ask you to undo your edit; the basis for all discussion is to go back to WP:QUO. Otherwise, I will open an ANI. Veverve (talk) 22:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't revert. I put back what is supported by sources and I argued it here. You contstantly delete my additions, including the latest ones with Ukrainian historians. That proves you either don't read the article or don't like their views. Tsans2 (talk) 09:23, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Please do not use personal attacks on talk pages, like calling other editors Ukrainiphobic. It's WP policy to assume good faith, and base your discussion on policy rather than character. You may want to strike out or remove that part of your post. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 03:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I removed that part you highlighted. It is possible insulting. Thanks! Tsans2 (talk) 09:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, ANI it is then. Also two other sources are FICTREF, the closest thing to the content they support is as follows:

• pravda.com.ua: "Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleksiy Danilov is convinced that the word 'racism' has already exceeded 'fascism' in terms of cruelty to civilians."
• "Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleksiy Danilov noted that it is time for the world to get acquainted with a new type of war crimes - racists."

-> No mention of Danilov "advocat[ing] on the natioanl level the use of the word in the meaning of Russian/Putin's fascism, to describe Russia's aggression against Ukraine". I also note that this wording is not neutral at all even if it is what Ukranews says (see below).

Ukranews does contain something akin to Danilov "advocat[ing] on the national level the use of the word in the meaning of Russian/Putin's fascism, to describe Russia's aggression against Ukraine", but it does not precise whether it is Danilov's opinion or an official policy, or whether it is a natonal or international appeal. I will also note that the article uses the expression "путінський фашизм" ("Putinian fascism") to describe raschism; it seem to me that is what the subject of the article should be for Tsans2, despite the lack of clarity of the user's declaration, i.e. any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 11:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

References

New page in Draft space for general Fascism in Russia topic.

This morning I added the Template:R with possibilities template to the page Fascism in Russia as the first step of creating a more coherent structure for the topic area. I have just created a page Draft:Fascism in Russia which has a few page links and some section headings on with with the intention of eventually putting it there. Rather than waiting until I have written something that I am happy with I am letting people know that it exists and inviting everyone to make changes to it. I hope that this makes things easier for everybody as there is now a (draft) place for the wider context to sit. Feel free to reach out with questions or comments. Gusfriend (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Noted. Yes, this is probably a good way to handle this. There is a book about it. But this is not a subject I am really interested in. My very best wishes (talk) 21:44, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Scope of the article

It seems there are somee problems defining the scope of the article.
Here are my thought on what the article is about, from what I can read in the lede:

• The alleged sub-ideology of Fascism allegedly followed by the Putin government; this sub-ideology's name is "Raschism", "Russicism", "Ruscism" and it has defined characteristics which make it different from other forms of Fascism

-->The article should therefore never have been named "Russian fascism (ideology)"; all the versions of the article are called "Raschism", see wikidata:Q15975478. Therefore, I am in favour of a page move of the article to "Raschism".
Here are my thought on what the article is NOT about, unless on a case-by-base basis a clear link is made with the (alleged) Raschism ideology:

• Accusations or claims of Vladimir Putin being a Fascist
• The broader topic of Russia under Vladimir Putin
• The 2022 invasion of Ukraine by Russia
• The History of Fascist movements in Russia
• Parallels between Fascist Italy/the Third Reich/Francoist Spain and Russia under Vladimir Putin
• Russian far-right in general
• Russian nationalism

Do you agree on my evaluation of the scope of the article? Veverve (talk) 20:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

• No, I think the subject as described in sources above (see several previous threads) should be named as Neo-fascism in Russia, Russian Neo-fascism or Fascist transformation of Russian state, while Rashism could be used as a redirect. Then sub-subjects #1, #3, and #5 above would have to be prominently included, while others could too be mentioned in Background or other sections.My very best wishes (talk) 22:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

  1. Radically changing the scope of an article right after an AfD is not very advised
  2. How is your scope worth a separate article? Would it not be better a a section of Russia under Vladimir Putin? Veverve (talk) 23:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Yous suggested: The sub-ideology of Fascism followed by the Putin government; this sub-ideology's name is "Raschism", "Russicism", "Ruscism". Yes, I agree, this is the scope (but then #1, #3, and #5 above must be prominently included!). Yes, one could make such section on page Russia under Vladimir Putin, but that does not precludes from having also a separate page which describes the subject in more detail. My very best wishes (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

No, you do not agree. You believe any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin is the scope of the article. Veverve (talk) 10:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

• My thoughts generally align with Veverve. In particular, the charge that Putin regime is fascist is controversial to say the least in RS sources, and should be presented as a contested opinion. Furthermore, there have been different fascist ideologies followed by different Russians throughout history; the place for an overview would be History of fascism in Russia rather than an article about 1 singular ideology. (t · c) buidhe 23:08, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Buidhe: Draft:Fascism in Russia exists to attempt to distinguish the two topics, unfortunately it is still a draft. Veverve (talk) 14:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, I find absurd to create a page with such a broad title with so many more-or-less-related-but-not-that-much-when-you-look-at-it topics. It seems to me as absurd as creating a page called Russian communism (ideology) about actual History of Communism in Russia, an alleged ideology of "Russinism", and Russia under Vladimir Putin, because Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk has compared some of Putin's action during the 2022 invasion of Ukraine to that of Joseph Stalin and comparisons have been made between Communist practices and Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 17:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

• Redirect already. There is nothing in this article that is salvageable.  The made up term, promoted by unreliable Ukrainian publications is all we have got here. NavjotSR (talk) 05:46, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: I will speak my mind concerning this article. We do not have the time to wait for someone to create an article on the broader topic of fascism in Russia to replace the current article, since the recent versions of the article, with all of their unacceptable flaws and their vague scope, have already been used as translation material in many languages of other versions of Wikipedia. The article as it is cannot remain, for its problems of scope and the numerous FICTREFs which populate it and which the two main authors (Tsans2 and Jafaz) seem to be fond of. It has been WP:DEADLINENOW for too long for this article without anyone willing or able to take the necessary steps to uphold Wikipedia's standards and policies. With the recent topic-ban of Tsans2 the (among other things) POV-pusher, now I feel is the time to do some cleaning.

A) First and foremost: the current title does not reflect the content of this article at all. The title needs to change.

B.α) There are three scopes which I have seen being proposed or implicitly proposed for this article:

1. accusations of Russia under Vladimir Putin of being fascist
2. any claim of Russia having a fascist or fascist-ish government at one point in time, and any comparison of past fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin
3. ratschism

The problems are: the first two subjects could easily fit into a section at Russia under Vladimir Putin or Russian nationalism, the third one has no notability in the WP:GNG sense.

B.β) I have two solutions:

• Turn the article into a broad article about fascism in Russia by translating ru:Русский фашизм, and rename the article to Fascism in Russia
• Redirect the article to the same place as Russian fascism, i.e. to a DAB

My solutions are not great after an AfD... but what did those who decided to keep the article want to keep, exactly? What scope and subject did they deem notable? I do not see it, and a good portion of the "keep" votes are WP:ILIKEIT.

@NavjotSR and HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith: what are yout thoughts on this? If no one opposes my proposals, I will enact one of my two solutions. Veverve (talk) 05:01, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

No objections, this article is a pretty big mess as is. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 17:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

• Strongly agree with NavjotSR, the term appears to be made up by Ukrainian media for propaganda purposes re: Russian invasion. Recommend Redirect. Detsom (talk) 17:28, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Detsom: the term likely has a history which goes back before that, as the attempts made between 2010 and 2022 at creating the WP ru article seem to indicate. Veverve (talk) 18:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

  Termin begins in 1995. It is very well explained by Djohar Dudaev in his interview But it was translated a bit mistakenly - russism. The correct tranclation is Ruscism. DmytroKov (talk) 18:42, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

• I have completed the redirect now because the subject fails WP:GNG and no attempts were made to prove this to be wrong probably because it is not possible to. Anyone who wants to revert the redirect should better establish GNG here and propose what they want to write than abiding by the misleading WP:SYNTH of the older version. NavjotSR (talk) 04:32, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: Veverve, My very best wishes -- it seems that at this point most editors agree that Russia, especially recently, is in many substantial ways behaving as a fascist state. There are articles on this subject, some are already listed, but more have appeared recently e.g. [22][23]. It seems that the debate is primarily about the terminology. There is already an article about Putinism, which in itself is compared to fascism. A few days ago, Polish PM described Russia as "totalitarian-fascist state" [24]. It seems that Putinism has been transforming into the Russian fascism as a more distinct ideology. However, it is not yet universally accepted view, as some scholars/observers/politicians do voice it, while some not (yet). In any case, this is a notable (WP:N) subject and deserves an article, either as a more general "Fascism in Russia" or a more distinct "Russian fascism" article. --Mindaur (talk) 13:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Mindaur:

  it seems that at this point most editors agree that Russia, especially recently, is in many substantial ways behaving as a fascist state: then please edit Russia under Vladimir Putin or Draft:Fascism in Russia#After the breakup of the Soviet Union if you want those considerations to be added. This very article (Russian fascism (ideology)) has been a pain for all its existence.

  A few days ago, Polish PM described Russia as "totalitarian-fascist state" why should we care? Are we going to quote Korwin-Mikke on any issues he tacles? Being a PM does not mean your opinion is notable or scientific. Veverve (talk) 17:18, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• Re to Mindaur (since I was pinged). Yes, absolutely. I will take a look later when I have time. It will take some time, definitely days. Please do not effectively delete this page against results of the AfD. My very best wishes (talk) 02:28, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

  The consensus is to turn this page into a redirect. The AfD ended with no consensus; weeks of discussion later we do have a consensus. Veverve (talk) 02:38, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Where do you see consensus to to turn this page into a redirect? Please make an official RfC about it and have it officially closed (just as the AfD). And please self-revert. My very best wishes (talk) 02:48, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

NavjotSR, HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, Detsom and me have supported turning the article into a redirect. An external observers, Czello, has also seen there was a consensus. Veverve (talk) 02:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• I would rename this page to Rashism (currently a redirect page) and correct it accordingly. Note that one of meanings of word "Russism" is the same as "Rashism" (i.e. modern-day Russian state-promoted fascism as described by Motyl and others). Any objections? My very best wishes (talk) 03:55, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

  I do object. Russian fascism (ideology) should be kept to be a redirect for a future, broad article Fascism in Russia. Feel free to create a new Rashism article at the Rashism redirect, although first making a draft would be a good idea since the topic is quite debated. Veverve (talk) 04:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• Whatever the renaming, this page must be moved to new title to preserve edit history. The subject of this page, as it was originally created and written, is the theory (or claims and research) suggesting that the current political system in Russia represent a variety of fascism. The exact title is debatable. I would suggest "Rashism" as a title that appears in English language RS (see a couple of books linked above), most familiar for Russian and Ukrainian speaking people. There is even a well-known old song by Boris Sevasianov about it [25] (translation):

This is, baby, Rashism,
Orthodox Fascism!
...

If you can suggest a better title for this subject, that's fine. But can you please stop reverting? My very best wishes (talk) 14:49, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes:

• this page must be moved to new title to preserve edit history: the Template:Copied can be used for cases where the attribution is needed
• the title "Russian fascism (ideology)" as per WP:PRECISE is absolutely unfit for making an article about 'claims that Russia in the 21st century is fascist and its variety of fascism is called rashysm'.
• at best, the word "rashysm" can have an entry at the Ukrainian wiktionary; I have yet to find reliable sources detailing this alleged political ideology (and as you can see below, I have asked; so far no one has provided any). Again, as I stated in my talk page, feel free to prove me wrong
• I feel creating a "Raschism" article to put 'claims that Russia in the 21st century is fascist and its variety of fascism is called rashysm' is very close to WP:COATRACK
• stop making it about me individially reverting; numerous users have reverted this article to a redirect

Veverve (talk) 15:39, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• That word appears in English language sources (books) as "Rashism", not "Rashysm". So, you apparently do not like such title? I will think about something else, but in any event, this page must be moved to new title to preserve edit history. My very best wishes (talk) 15:51, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

  There is also a draft page at Draft:Ruscism, or should it be Russism / Rashism / Rashysm? It seems like we're coming up with new names for clearly defined historical concepts (i.e. Fascism & Nationalism). Detsom (talk) 16:31, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree these are not the best titles, precisely for the reasons you say. And yes, we should have page Fascism in Russia. But this page is not about fascism in Russia (yes, obviously, there are neo-Nazi everywhere), but more like Fascist Russia, i.e. about the claim that Russian state/country today is a fascist state/country (according to [26],[27], and a number of other source that were cited on the page, but now removed altogether). This is something different. My very best wishes (talk) 16:46, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

One possible solution would be renaming this page to Ideology of Russian fascism. The ideology of Russian fascism is not the same as ideology of German Nazism, for example. But it would be a scope/subject different from the scope/subject of the current page. My very best wishes (talk) 17:23, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to create another article, with a WP:PRECISE name and not something like 'ideology of Russian fascism', from scratch for claims that Russia under Vladimir Putin is fascist or akin to fascist, but only if such a topic has enough information and coverage to be treated as a separated article and not simply as a section of Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 17:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

• Mentioned at the WP:AN page (and a little above), I started work on a draft page Draft:Fascism_in_Russia (in general draft space not my user area) and laid it out and added some text as a starting point. Unfortunately I have no time to work on it and will be taking it no further but my suggestion would be to publish it and then work on adding the information there rather than expanding the scope of other pages. That way there is a definitive master "Fascism in Russia" page which talks about it for the last 150 years (or so) with links to other articles. Gusfriend (talk) 10:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, Draft:Fascism in Russia should be worked on and the content should be independent of the content that existed on this page. NavjotSR (talk) 05:19, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, sure, no one objected to this. Such page is on a more general subject, partially overlapped with the subject of this page. But this does not preclude renaming and fixing this page, which is about the alleged fascist nature of Putin's regime. However, I am going to mostly stay away from any subjects related to Russia, and therefore leave resolving this to others. My very best wishes (talk) 17:16, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Based on that, I now restored the page. Fascism in Russia is a legitimate, but a different page or sub-page even if we want to treat this page as Ideology of Russian fascism (I do not think so). If anyone wants to delete this page against the previous global consensus (i.e. AfD), please start an AfD or RfC. Renaming is a different matter. If anyone wants to rename this page, please start new thread with suggestion(s). My very best wishes (talk) 11:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Symbol "Z"

Symbol "Z" of racism resulting from Russia's attack on Ukraine in 24 February 2022. 84.108.231.36 (talk) 15:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

No source claims that. Veverve (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

A lot of source can proof this words. You can choose for example by yourself https://www.google.com/search?q=z+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B0&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiY89eyxPj2AhV2_bsIHWxFCyMQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=z+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B0&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQGDIECAAQGDIECAAQGDIECAAQGDoKCAAQsQMQgwEQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BAgAEAM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgQIABBDOgQIABAeOgYIABAIEB5QzAVY3RRg0xVoAHAAeACAAYYBiAH2CZIBBDAuMTCYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=6-hJYtjRKPb67_UP7IqtmAI&bih=664&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBF_ruUA892UA892 DmytroKov (talk) 18:35, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

What? Veverve (talk) 21:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2022

Typo: In the section "Ideology of Russian fascism" the word "racism" is used twice where I think that "rashism" is the intended word. 38.109.87.242 (talk) 20:00, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Redirect so nothing to see here. NavjotSR (talk) 04:28, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Title

What kind of word is "Russian fascism"? I don't think that anybody has heard of this term applied to this concept. This looks like a pretty horrid violation of WP:COMMONNAME. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 15:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dunutubble: the title was very likely chosen to hide the numerous problems this article has (see among other things: Talk:Russian fascism (ideology)#Scope of the article). Veverve (talk) 15:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

A lot of problems can be checked. Can you, please, clarify? DmytroKov (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Such as the use of FICTREFs or the vagueness around the scope of this article. Veverve (talk) 21:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Soft deletion via redirect

@Veverve: I see your huge contributions to this article and I'm thankful for that. However, I don't see the point why to delete the page after consensus was not foudn on AfD a few weeks. If the administrator decided to redirect, than it would be kind of AfD resolution. But to redirect (soft delete) the page here when not so many users are involved in the process, is at least hasty. --IgorTurzh (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• besides, there are enough flags that indicate the problems of the article. --IgorTurzh (talk) 19:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

There is a clearly a consensus for redirection at #Scope of the article. You are trying to WP:BUREAUCRACY. Veverve (talk) 19:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@Veverve I see. than I will try to make Rashism article and focus mainly on that. IgorTurzh (talk) 19:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@IgorTurzh: I would disadvise that. From all the sources I could find, the alleged "Raschism" ideology is not notable or defined precisely. Each definition I have seen looks more like an excuse to insult (and I mean real insults, not opinions) Russia under Vladimir Putin. If this topic exists, why is there no RS on it? Why is there no reliable political science journal or academically published book discussing it? Veverve (talk) 19:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

It's tricky. Ukrainian historians started talking about Rashism. Isn't it enough or only American/Western are reliable? By the way, https://theconversation.com/yes-putin-and-russia-are-fascist-a-political-scientist-shows-how-they-meet-the-textbook-definition-179063 is this a good source in this context? IgorTurzh (talk) 19:46, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainian historians started talking about Rashism: in what reliable sources?

This article you linked is 99% about Russia under Vladimir Putin (or a hypothetical Accusation of fascism against Russia article), with one line on the term "rashyst" described more as an insult or a joke than a political ideology (see also WP:PASSINGMENTION). Veverve (talk) 19:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• The result on AfD was "no consensus". Perhaps this page could be renamed, but not deleted. My very best wishes (talk) 02:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Restoration

I see @My very best wishes: (MVBW) has restored the page. I note that the version restored is filled with FICTREFs, states Russia under Vladimir Putin being fascist is a fact (despite the disparity in the sources concerning this), and equates the expression of 'Russian fascism' with 'raschism' despite the total lack of source doing this and the fact the existence of raschism is not supported by reliable sources (statements from politicians in times of war and newspaper pamphlets are not RSs, scientific journals exist). I had explained most FICTREFs previously in this talk page at #Editing problems to which I add this explanation, and this one for suspicions of FICTREFs. The user has stated in their restoration that they did not approve of the version they restored. Still, MVBW did not restore the version from which I had expurged the FICTREFs I had seen (I did not check all references) and which I had made more neutral. Veverve (talk) 11:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)