Talk:September Morn

Untitled

I trimed the image caption, including removing the text saying " Ironically the scandal causing this fame was provoked by the person that wanted to prohibit people ever seeing it—if he had done nothing, nobody would probably even remember the painting, and even less probable that it would still be on display in a major museum". This seems to me in part to be restating points already made and adding a POV spin. Even if one ranks it as a dated 3rd rate piece, such and worse can certainly be seen on display in many major museums; they are simply not among the museums' more famous or popular displays. -- Infrogmation 15:58, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC) Does anyone have the name of the model? This should be in the article as much as is the name of the artist.Tham153 (talk) 17:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Chabas never revealed her name. Ewulp (talk) 00:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• The statement During his career he never completed a portrait of a man may be incorrect. Portrait d'homme barbu and Portrait d'homme toile are listed by Artnet as being by Chabas; the latter being sold at Piasa auction house, Paris in November 2012. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the note. Nixed (not really pertinent to September Morn, anyways). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Further sources

• Search
• Chicago (done)
• At the time of his death (done)
• Speculation on model (done)
• Censoring Sex (done)
• Duchamp in Perspective (done)
• Met Acquisition (done)
• Toledo (done)
• Not a sou
• Revolution! (done)
• The same old story
• Rejection from Philly (done)
• "Cold shoulder" (Done)
• Whereabouts (done)
• Man posed as September Morn (done)
• Milwaukee
• Westminster album
• Rather detailed opinion column (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)
• (done)

• Free September Morn Pin (done)
• Chabas' Original Work Never in the US (done)
• Disorderly Conduct for bringing copy of painting home (done)

• Toledo again (done)
• I Ain't No September Morn (done)
• Girls imitate the pose; boy steals the pictures (worth including?)

Lead

Interesting picture, interesting article . . . but I wonder whether the lead should describe the pose as "protecting herself from the cold". It's a very ambiguous pose, which different critics have described and interpreted differently, so maybe no one should be stated in the lead as definitive. At first glance, the rest of the article is fine, gives even-handed coverage to different opinions. (Full disclosure: as an older woman, I definitely see this as child porn/erotica sanctioned by being Art, and the pose as provocative on the part of the artist, not the model). Cheers, Awien (talk) 12:29, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the commentary. I'll touch up on the lead later (was a bit rushed doing it, to be honest). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good! Awien (talk) 12:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, agree with Awien, as per my position at this painting's Featured Picture candidacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/September_Morn. I do think any article pretending to completeness here should examine Professor Brauer's paper I cited, whose purpose it to examine how art like this escaped sanction as indecent, though I'm afraid her estimate of 11-13 for the subject's age strikes me as a subjective estimate rather than based on any objective evidence. I suggested in the forum that Suzanne Delve was in fact the French actress Suzanne Delvé and this does seem confirmed by Google images of her when compared with the newspaper image (arched eyebrow, prominent chin).

The expanding editor here was initially reluctant to include Delve on the grounds there was no reliable source. When he did finally edit, he thought fit to stress the presence of the subject's mother but omitted her age and the "instinctive" pose. I supplied those details, obviously significant, and in the circumstances I feel entitled to warn editors against uncritically accepting Chabas' account of the painting's genesis. That his subject actually posed in the freezing waters of Lake Annecy strikes me as extremely implausible. Artists' models have to hold their pose for long periods of time and there would have been significant issues with privacy and possible attention from the local police. I do hope we are not to eventually see a "Do You Know" along the line of "In 1909 a young girl stepped into the freezing waters of Lake Annecy and her recoiling pose subsequently became famous throughout the world ...". That would be a travesty, and I can add that the pose is not in fact the body-hugging, knee-clenching pose one adopts trying to protect oneself from cold. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 15:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• So you are coming here and accusing me of being "reluctant" to add Delve (after having accused me of resorting to OR in describing her as an actress, which is reported in the source?)? I did not add her immediately because MoH is not a reliable source. Period. Once I did get a RS, she went right in. That is not being reluctant. That is following guidelines and policy. I did not include her age because it was, and remains, irrelevant to the painting as a whole; September Morn would have been September Morn no matter if she was 12, 15, or 19, and frankly the paragraph on her goes into a bit too much detail even now. Inserting each claimants age at the time the painting would have occurred would have been WP:UNDUE and (considering your apparent obsession with this model being under the age of majority) very WP:POINTy.

Indeed, the emphasis on the age of the model has been your obsession since the FPC nomination started, and right now one of the weakest paragraphs in the article is basically there as an anchor for the Brauer article. As I've said already, I'll be happy to look at the article once I get access to it, and once I can read it I may find something that can be better worked into the article's structure. I don't have ready access to it, but I've posted several requests at WP:RX for sources which could be used – including Brauer.

As for "not being critical", at the time you made the comment I was not yet aware that almost every single aspect of this painting's history has been reported and misreported since the controversy first broke out. Once you pointed out the existence of multiple narratives, I almost immediately included them, and almost every time I've found discrepancies in the sources I've been careful to note that. Right now I've got a couple RSes which Google hints may have elements reported in the non-RS you mention (the American girl's head, and of Ortiz being the owner of the shop in New York), but they are snippet view only, and thus I am not adding anything yet.

And, for the last time, the article's content (or lack of it) is not germane to the quality of a scan as a picture. Actually read the criteria, or talk with people who know the process. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Well exactly, as you say, you were reluctant to edit until you had a reliable source, as I said. So why your agressive response? But the source was immediately accessible from the Ministry of Hoaxes blog, was of the same nature as those uploaded in the "Further Sources" section and in fact had already been uploaded.

I glanced at the rest of your post and don't see the need to respond except in one detail: that my objection to valorizing this image as Featured Picture, equivalent perhaps to hanging it in a gallery (I'm not suggesting the image should be removed from its article), is based on a subjective impression that the subject is too young to make the image a decent one by modern standards. I am entirely disinterested as to its legality or to the age of the subject. It's a painting that plainly has the potential to gratify paedophiles and Wikipedia should apply common-sense and discretion valorizing such paintings. I made all that very plain at the forum.

Normally I would be content to reply to your responses endlessly (and why not so long as I have the energy) but I fear I cannot because I will be away for a while. On my return I should be happy to continue. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 16:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Following policy and guidelines in a quest to present a high quality article is not an act of personal reluctance, as you implied through your statement ("finally edit", indeed, as if I had deliberately put off adding the information... you wonder why you get bad responses? check how you word your observations), but good editing practice. The article was not uploaded to Museum of Hoaxes, and it was not in the Google News Archive. Thus, I had to rely on We hope, who kindly clipped it and posted a link here, which I followed and included after including about a dozen other references in my spare time (which, owing to time zone differences, is often significantly distanced from US editing times).

As to "a subjective impression that the subject is too young to make the image a decent one by modern standards. I am entirely disinterested as to ... the age of the subject." ... you can't actually see any flaw with that reasoning? If you are entirely disinterested as to her age, why would you worry she is too young to make the image a "decent one"? The first sentence negates the second. As for "It's a painting that plainly has the potential to gratify paedophiles ..." - any image of a child has that possibility. Even of a little girl in a white sundress on a fine summer morning. A toddler walking happily in a diaper could conceivably arouse a certain kind of pedophile. There are no bounds to human perversity. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Still here :)

You came on to my Talk page here to rant at me for failing to notice the Delve piece described her as working on the stage (gentle reader - my response includes what I consider to be a definitive assessment of Chabas' September Morn painting - catch it if you are a mature adult with a strong stomach ...). I'm not sure that I'm not entitled to rant at you similarly, because the Museum of Hoaxes September Morn piece does include a detailed reference to Delve, with a long quote from the article including all the detail I subsequently added, and giving the origin as a "Kings Feature" syndicated article. A quick Google search on the terms "Suzanne Delve King features" on my server (Netherlands) gives a link to the relevant newspaper.com link as its first hit, which I copied on to the forum for your attention

There are indeed paedophiles who are aroused by pictures of babies in nappies. We've already been there. It was your first remark to me in the forum and in my reply I said I would similarly oppose Wikipedia valorizing any such image that sought to eroticize its subject. The point about September Morn is that does strive to eroticize its subject, not in terms of its nudity but in its treatment, which is arguably voyeuristic in intent, and if not deliberately intended as such, can certainly be fantasised as such.

I'm entirely disinterested in the subject's age, because whatever her age, Chabas plainly portrayed her as under-age, a subjective opinion I'm entitled to and one shared at least by a critic at The New York Times you quote. Men fantasise not only about breasts but also about bottoms. In this image the hip development is definitely girlish rather than adult, as was the case with Manet's Olympia, an image of which you warmed to your satisfaction for the discerning connoisseurs at Wikipedia's Featured Pictures.

You can have me here until about 10:30 when I fly out. I should have flown out this afternoon, but I was nursing the mother of all hangovers following festivities in bonny old Scotland. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Film notes

Plot of the lost September Morn:

"SEPTEMBER MORN (Feb. 26).— Dennis is a good seaman, but is totally deficient in skin adornments, so dear to a sailor's heart. He sees with envy the various tattooed designs upon the arms and chests of other members of the crew, and his first day ashore seizes the opportunity to have his own person treated in a like manner. On visiting Ali he is shown a book of designs, all of which he scorns until he sees the picture of the shrinking maiden standing in the chilly water. This meets his entire approval and at his request Ali tattoos the picture upon his chest. Now Genevieve, Dennis' sweetheart, is the energetic leader of the Purity League and conducts a militant campaign against all representations of the human figure unadorned. Raiding a shop where the "September Morn" is prominently displayed in the window, she meets her Waterloo and Is washed out of the door by a powerful stream of water from a hose directed by the indignant proprietor. Smarting from her defeat she returns home just in time to greet Dennis proud of the aid to beauty which he has just acquired. Her horror at seeing the offending picture upon his chest may he imagined. The sorrowful Dennis is sent back to Ali to have the beauty clothed. Dennis does as bidden, but selects the split skirt for the purpose. When Genevieve sees the result she is even more indignant and insists upon accompanying Dennis to the tattoo artist, where she has the split skirt sewed up, the figure fully and respectably clothed and the "Votes for Women" added.

• Source: "September Morn". Moving Picture World. 19 (8): 1008. February 21, 1914.