Talk:Tired light

This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. Please read this talk page discussion before making substantial changes.

A mechanism for "tired light"

The phenomenon of photon-path-bending is well documented, both in diffraction of photons past a sharp edge, and in photons passing by a massive object such as the sun. It is a geometric necessity for photons to slow in their path in order for them to have a curved path. When a photon path is bent, the side of the photon proximal (nearest) to the mass, be it a blade or a cosmological mass, slows in comparison to the distal (far) edge of the photon. Since this bending is a function of the field of the object and the field is continuous in space, both the proximal and the distal edge of the photon are slowed. But, the difference between the two speeds causes the photon to follow a curved path. One may then ask, is this interaction between the mass and photon, elastic or inelastic? If the interaction is inelastic, then the photon will leave the interaction having lost energy and thereby leave with a longer wavelength. Since photons can be absorbed by matter and converted to thermal energy, the interaction must be inelastic. The train of energy transfer being: the movement of the electron by the photon and the electron transferring the energy to the thermal vibration of the atom. Even at a large distance the interaction between the cumulative electron field of the mass and the photon is a real interaction as evidenced by the observed bending. As a real interaction, one we have established as inelastic, energy will be transferred and wavelength of the photon increased. In passing thru the universe, photons from a distant object will be slowed equally on average for the entire image. There should be no broadening of wavelength (spectrum blurring), since the entire image is subject to mass fields that are smoothly continuous and distributed nearly equally on all sides of the image’s path. Even in gravitational lensing, there should be no observable spectrum broadening. All photon images are played upon by gravitational lensing to a very small degree, but only when the image passes very near to a large mass does the lensing become observable. This explanation of the “tired light” hypothesis suggests the unification of the electromagnetic and the gravitational forces. My Flatley (talk) 18:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Without citations to reliable sources, this has to be considered original research. You might want to check the talk page guidlines for further information about what's appropriate in here. Regards, Paradoctor (talk) 19:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

dilation of cosmologically distant events

It seems to be the opposite, the expanding universe theory can't explain why distant quasars are NOT dilated: http://www.physorg.com/news190027752.html--90.179.235.249 (talk) 21:41, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Excellent news, thank you! I footnoted it, it is a bit early to work it into the main text. I'm pretty sure that this is going to make headlines. ;) Paradoctor (talk) 05:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Paradoctor, as promised, just added this reference. Unfortunately, the article is now garbled. The new reference is used to footnote a statement that it seems to contradict, and it also contradicts the later statements supported by footnotes [13] and [14]. We need to put these papers in relation to each other, at a minimum to say that the issue has not yet been definitively settled. The contradiction seems to be between studies made on supernovae and studies made on quasars. I'm hoping someone with a better background and knowledge of the literature will do this before I come in with a hatchet. --Art Carlson (talk) 08:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, /me bad copyeditor. The article needs an overhaul anyway, I might find time this weekend. Do you think the patch will stay the execution until then? Paradoctor (talk) 20:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm laid back. I hope and trust you can teach me something if I give you time. I wonder, though, if this is the best place to go into details. Shouldn't these studies, and whatever commentaries that may exist on these studies, be presented in Time dilation, or maybe in Hubble's law? --Art Carlson (talk) 10:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Hubble's law definitely, tired light turns on the question of how to interpret this phenomenon. Depending on how material is distributed, a number of articles relating to cosmology are also concerned. For time dilation this would at most be a question of whether or not to mention that time dilation is observed in distant objects. Current mainstream consensus is "yes", and will not change soon. Of course, if Hawkins' observations are corroborated and turn out to be as annoying as, say, the Pioneer anomaly, we might have another cosmological crisis on our hands. ;) Paradoctor (talk) 16:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe this is the right place. For the mainstream, the SNe results are ho-hum, since they only verify what we already "know", and are much, much less precise than the spectrographic measurements. The quasar result is probably not notable enough to be mentioned in the mainstream articles until it has been replicated by other groups. On the other hand, tired light theories are calling all of this into question, so it makes sense to look at all the different kinds of evidence available. (I'm not holding my breath for the next cosmological crisis, if there was ever a first one.) --Art Carlson (talk) 07:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

In culture

The artist Carsten Nicolai created a series of works called "tired light" which thematizes this phenomenon. 78.52.97.154 (talk) 14:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

literature has taken notice of published criticism

Major French journal Le Nouvel Observateur's Science has taken notice of Lorenzo Zaninetti and D.L.Mamas, see: http://olivier-4.blogs.nouvelobs.com/archive/2011/04/19/le-pouvoir-de-l-imaginaire-remise-en-question-bizarre-vous-a.html these cited references should be included. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 15:32, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not a typical way in which someone's work would be noticed in the scientific community and does not rise to the standards required for articles in Wikipedia. Blogs, like this, are simply not appropriate ways of verifying reliability. Additionally, a researcher has been waging an ongoing internet campaign to get his ideas onto Wikipedia, which should raise some red flags. He would be well-advised to get his ideas published in ApJ, MNRAS, or A&A if he wants to be noticed and taken seriously. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 20:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

The misleading term blog here in French language context is referring to a regularly published commentary in a major French scientific magazine Science. I don't see where a researcher has waged any campaigns regarding wikipedia. Also, Lorenzo Zaninetti's work is cited by Science and should be mentioned here as well. Not all published physicists believe the redshift is due to expanding space. I here add to the article Zaninetti's published article reference. 71.98.132.209 (talk) 02:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The IP posting above is presumably a researcher trying to get his work into Wikipedia. This is now being reported to WP:FTN and WP:COIN. Tiny minority ideas of current fringe physicists do not belong in this article which is about a notable historical concepts which has been falsified. 198.202.202.22 (talk) 17:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

It is a Violation of wikipedia rules to attack a living person. 12.184.176.57 (talk) 21:49, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Crawford, Masreliez, Zaninetti, and Mamas are published in recognized journals and by wikipedia rules must be included in the section on criticisms. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Crawford is published in Nature, these are respected journals not to be censored by people who don't like what they say. 71.98.139.122 (talk) 01:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

It is a Violation of wikipedia rules to attack living persons. 71.98.139.122 (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Crawford is reference 15 which is published in Nature, perfectly acceptable reference not to be censored. 71.98.139.122 (talk) 14:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Nature papers from 1979 that have no citations, were roundly refuted that year, and are therefore not particularly related to the historical subject do not belong here. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 20:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The Nature article was never refuted, and is directly related as a criticism of tired light. The other publications also. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

It was refuted by Peebles in his cosmology text, for one. The rest of the publications are fringe journals with zero impact factor believed only by the cranky and the dying believers in Big Bang hatred. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 21:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Peebles never published a refutation in any journal, nowhere. And the other journals are recognized sources. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Peebles most certainly did publish a refutation in his cosmology text and it's referenced in this article. That's the sense in which this article needs to be written and understood. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 21:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

A book is not peer reviewed. It is not a journal article. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia fair and balanced ?

Significant numbers of scientists do not believe the big bang theory at all, as evidenced by all the signers at http://www.cosmologystatement.org/ etc. Tired light is the Achilles' Heel of the big bang believers, who are in complete panic to discredit any discussion of tired light. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The vast majority of the sigantories of that statement are neither astronomers, cosmologists, nor regarded research scientists. Just sour grapes and a lot of time on their hands. A number of creationists signed that document too. It should be an embarrassment to the alt cosmology community that they included so many charlatans in that statement which is now 10 years old and has NOTHING to show for it. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)