Talk:Wagner Group

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Shibbolethink (talk | contribs) at 02:57, 17 October 2023 (OneClickArchiver archived Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2023 to Talk:Wagner Group/Archive 1). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Ideology

Last sentence of first paragraph of lede reads:

While the group is not ideologically driven, elements of Wagner are linked to neo-Nazism and far-right extremism.

Why is is important? There is a section discussing these links to far right extremism. PMCs are by their very nature far right - its market directed violence. Take a look at Blackwater, what are the chances that the mercenaries convicted for murdering Iraqi civilians voted for Bernie Sanders. Right?

My point is, there is nothing ideological about Wagner. If a subset of mercenaries have far-right convictions that does not really tell us anything. The wording of the sentence conveys this "elements of". Well elements of nearly anything are linked to far-right extremism these days....

It's a remarkably clumsy sentence, apologetic from the start. Should be removed from lede. Jabbi (talk) 02:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I don't think it is relevant for the lead. Almost any political ideology is irrelevant to this group. Srijanx22 (talk) 15:33, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is called a compromise, between those who want to say it is far-right (as you say, by definition it must be) and those who want to white wash it. Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was a party to that discussion and reasonable arguments were provided on how almost nobody talked about political motivations of Wagner Group before the beginning of Ukraine war. Even today in 2023, the coverage about the political leanings is beyond minimal. Srijanx22 (talk) 16:38, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A compromise should nonetheless have justification. It is completely unclear how it is relevant in the article's lead section. To be clear, the lead "is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents". The far right elements section is only 224 words out of the article's total of 9,237 or 2.4% and discusses only Utkin really, a single member who's been shown to be notable only for having been the first on-field commander and whose call-sign was chosen as a name for the group, and Rusich Group. The "elements" refered is then one man and one part of Wagner, Rusich Group, which according to its leader counted at most "several dozen people,". This is not important and should be removed from lead.
Also, as a thought experiment, try applying the same statement to a randomly chosen group. Let's say Deutsche Telekom or Walmart. --Jabbi (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I missed this discussion and posted about it below. Ideology isn't just about one's overtly stated views. Wagner is driven by underlying motivations. Whether that's nationalism, far-right beliefs, or just capitalist greed, there is still an ideology. LouMichel (talk) 00:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This source (quoting an academic) is quite accurate:[1] the group has no ideology, I think it was speculated by journalists because of the fact that one of the most famous commanders, Utkin, was a neo-Nazi. I think we can take this part out of the lede. Mhorg (talk) 19:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this sentence is clearly undue for lead. Editorkamran (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Founder

According to Foreign Policy[2] and Bellingcat[3] sources in the body of the article, Utkin was one of the earlier commanders, employed to run the group, while Prigozhin (by his own admission[4]) is the real founder, owner and funder of the group. Mhorg (talk) 15:46, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2023

Yevgeny Prigozhin is dead 2601:47:4300:B120:E05F:A1DD:B71C:F8C (talk) 17:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733 Let's leave it until the dust clears. Slatersteven (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wagner leader

Wagner group leader, Prigozhin killed in Moscow plane crash today so you should put him as (2014-2023) [5]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733 Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin on passenger list of plane that crashed HuntersHistory (talk) 18:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory (talk) 23:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2023 (2)

Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after Russia plane crash and Russia and Russia said so it should you should put (2014-2023) next to his name see reasons in talk. HuntersHistory (talk) 18:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Death is Confirmed

As a close official with the US Military, I can now confirm that he has died. 2601:47:4300:B120:8C53:1F1C:8F80:8FDF (talk) 20:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Yevgneny Prigozhin's wikipedia page also records him as dead but for some reason wikipedia moderators are insisting on, even though it makes wikipedia contradict itself, the information is not clear enough to be considered encyclopedic. Cactus Ronin (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. HuntersHistory (talk) 23:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Question about putting the leaders as killed in action.

Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory (talk) 23:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2023 (3)

Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. HuntersHistory (talk) 23:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 12:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 August 2023

In ‘Activities’: Change ‘ten countries’ to ‘eleven countries’ and then add ‘Venezuela’ to the list of countries that follows. Reason: Venezuela is highlighted in red on the map, showing Wagner group as active there, and there is a section about it further down in this same ‘Activities’ section, so this edit is needed for consistency. Lhollo (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: per WP:CIRCULAR. M.Bitton (talk) 12:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 August 2023 (2)

Incorrect spelling. Change "dessert" to "desert" in the section "Recruitment, training, techniques." The text snippet to change is "fighters who retreat or dessert" Hifear267 (talk) 02:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up, @Hifear267. I've gone ahead and fixed it. ArcticSeeress (talk) 03:20, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not Ideologically Driven?

The description says that the Wagner Group "is not ideologically driven." This is a highly questionable claim; they clearly do have ideological tendencies, and just because they don't overtly say they have an ideology doesn't mean they aren't driven by underlying beliefs or motives. So this phrasing seems incorrect and confusing. Maybe writing "While the group is not explicitly driven by a single ideology" would be more appropriate. LouMichel (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, it’s a bunch of people with different ideologies, there’s monarchists, Nazis, and communists. So no. Napalm Guy (talk) 00:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ideology isn't just expressly stated political views. If they are driven by greed, there's still an underlying belief system behind that. LouMichel (talk) 00:25, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tver Plane Crash

This article references the plane crash that presumably killed Prigozhin and Utkin (details still developing). There is a wikipedia article on this, 2023 Tver plane crash. I propose that it is linked within this article.

The last sentence of the leader/header currently states "On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia, leaving Wagner's leadership structure unclear. It is alleged the plane was shot down by the Russian military." That would be a good place to link it. I can not directly edit the page. If editors with editing rights agree, please do so. LWu22 (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"It is alleged the plane was shot down by the Russian military". Current statements indicate that it was not shot down but the leading theory is a bomb onboard the plane or other sabotage. This is found in the 2023 Tver plane crash article which quotes United States Department of Defense press secretary Patrick Ryder and The Wall Street Journal. Fanra (talk) 03:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To more directly address the comment by LWu22, their suggestion appears to be implemented, as the current version has "...Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia,..." with plane crash text linked to 2023 Tver plane crash. - Fanra (talk) 04:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you User:Fanra -LWu22 (talk) 19:22, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 August 2023

In lede: On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia should be changed to On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were killed in a plane crash in Russia or similar now that the aircraft's Aug 23 passenger list have all been confirmed dead. VronaMrk30 (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

British designation as an terrorist group

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-wagner-be-declared-terrorist-organization-by-uk-bbc-2023-09-06/ 2A02:3030:817:5622:1:0:436E:368F (talk) 20:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source says:
Britain is set to declare the Russian mercenary Wagner Group to be a terrorist organisation [...]'
A draft order due to laid before parliament will allow Wagner's assets to be categorised as terrorist property [...]
The order is expected to come into force on Sept. 13
(parts bolded by CiaPan).
So it's in progress. Should be added to the article when it's done by the parliament. --CiaPan (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While it's not decided by the parliament yet, it actualy is being submitted by the govenrment, and that fact can be reported in the article.
Source: "Russian Wagner Group declared terrorists". Gov.UK. 6 September 2023. Archived from the original on 2023-09-07. Retrieved 8 September 2023.
{{cite web| url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/russian-wagner-group-declared-terrorists| title=Russian Wagner Group declared terrorists| website=Gov.UK| date=6 September 2023| access-date=8 September 2023| archive-url=http://web.archive.org/web/20230907055523/https://www.gov.uk/government/news/russian-wagner-group-declared-terrorists| archive-date=2023-09-07| url-status=live}}
CiaPan (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Going to be debated on Wednesday 13 September: https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2023/september-2023/coming-up-in-the-commons-11-15/ --CiaPan (talk) 20:15, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 September 2023

Please add "United Kingdom" as a designated terrorist group, per source via https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/06/europe/russia-wagner-group-terrorist-organization-uk-intl/index.html 112.205.176.179 (talk) 04:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Too soon. See the source you linked. --CiaPan (talk) 21:41, 10 September 2023 (UTC).[reply]
 Not done: that's not what the source says. M.Bitton (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2023 (2)

We are WP:NOTNEWS and wikipedia is a repository of consistent broad-summary info, not individual events in a litany.— Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 02:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Should be mentioned somewhere in the article that they are going back https://www.newsweek.com/wagner-russia-ukraine-putin-progozhin-1828052 Napalm Guy (talk) 22:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: per WP:NOTNEWS. M.Bitton (talk) 13:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Neopagan connections

Here’s an source [6] suggesting deep connections between Wagner Group activities and Rodnovery beliefs and practices, a link which goes beyond merely the fact that members of Wagner (as with certain divisions in the regular Russian military) are disproportionately Rodnovers.

Apparently, the group’s trademark use of sledgehammers for torture and execution is a nod to the use of hammer symbols in various pagan myths (e.g., Mjolnir); Prigozhin himself reportedly acknowledged this connection while he was alive. Senior figures in the Russian Orthodox Church have denounced him and other Wagner leaders as pagans. Wagner also reportedly founded an ideological division in 2019 whose primary focus was promoting Rodnovery. The source I linked does take care to mention that there are plenty of Slavic neopagans, particularly outside of Russia, who oppose Wagner’s use of their faith’s symbolism. This article should certainly mention all of this; it’s not entirely accurate to describe Wagner as non-ideological. It’d be better to say that to the extent that Wagner Group had an ideology, it would have been Rodnover nationalism. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:77FB (talk) 02:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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