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Welcome!

Hello, Vacio, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re:

Ողջո՛ւյն Վաչագան, ցանկանալի կլիներ որ իր կենսագրությունը անգլերեն Վիկիպիդիյաի վրա գրեյ: Դժբախտաբար, այժմ զբաղված եմ ուրիշ հոդվածներով և նույնիսկ համալսարանի դասերով: Չնայած, երբ ամառը հասնի և դասերից ազատվեմ, ես իրոք կուսումանասիրեմ իր կյանքի մասին: Your help will be much appreciated here on English Wikipedia. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Իսկ ինչ կասեք, փորձե՞մ ինքս թարգմանել անգլերեն։ Վարանում եմ, որովհետև տեսնում եմ, որ այստեղ նման հոդված գրելուց հետո պետք է ահագին կռիվ տալ այն պաշտպանելու համար... Իսկ ես անգելերն այդքան լավ չգիտեմ (թարգմանելը գլուխ կբերեմ, բայց կռիվ անել լավ չեմ կարող)։ --Vacio (talk) 06:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ոչինչ, իմ դասերը վերջանում են մի երկու շաբաթից: Ես ձեզ կոգնեմ, և եթե թուրքերը միբան ասեն, ես կվիճեմ ձեր փոխարեն :) --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Բարև Վաչագան, the article looks good although it would be more accurate if his name is spelled "Yeghishé Ishkhanyan", so you can perhaps move it to that. The grammar needs fixing but I will work on it as soon as I can, հուսով, այս էկող շաբաթ. Աղբյուրների բաջժինը, «Idem»-ի փոխարեն պիտի գրվի՝ «Ibid., էջ.»--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Ghazanchetsots Cathedral 01.jpg

Բարեւ Վաչագան, կարծում եմ շնորհակալությունը պետք է ասենք նկարիչին. Եթե նա իր նկարները free licenseռ-ով չկիսվեր ապա չեինք կարող նրանք օգտագործել: Իմիջայլոց մեկ ուրիշն էլ կա որ կարող եմ upload անեմ commons-ում http://www.flickr.com/photos/seethis/1794641139/sizes/o/ Ինչ էս կարծում լավն է՞ --VartanM (talk) 05:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flickr-ում նկարները մի՞շտ են ազատ լիցենզիայով տրամադրվում։Երկրորդ նկարը ևս տպավորիչ է՝ impressive, ինձ շատ դուր է գալիս. Ինքս շատ եմ կարևորում այնպիսի նկարներ շրջանառումը, որոնք արտացոլում են Արցախի դարևոր մշակույթը. դրանք անհամեմատ ավելի արդյունավետ են քան «Արցախը հայաշխարհ է, թե՞ ոչ» անվերջանալի բանավեճը ազերիների հետ։ Ցավոք ես մի քիչ դժվարություններ եմ ունենում նկարներ բեռնավորելիս, հաճախ դրանք ջնջվում են։ Իսկ միայն Գանձասարում 200 հայերեն արձանագրություն կա, որոնցից միայն մեկն ենք կարողացել «ճարել» (Ջալալ Ա-ի արձանագրությունը)։ Ինչևիցե ևս մեկ անգամ շնորհակալություն ձեզ Շուշիի հրաշակերտ մայր տաճարի լուսանկարի բեռնավորման համար, շնորհակալ եմ նաև լուսանկարչին։Բարեկամական ողջույնով --Vacio (talk) 10:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Հասան Ջալալյաններ և Ջալալ Ա

Հարգելի Վաչագան, ես կցանկանյի իմանալ թե արդեոք այն տեղեկությունները, որ գտնվում է Հասան Ջալալյանների հոդվածի մեջ չի համապատասխանում Ջալալ Ա-ի հոդվածի հետ:--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ողջույն Մարշալ, անգլերեն House of Hasan-Jalalyan հոդվածը, որը վերաբերում է Խաչենի իշխանական տոհմի մեկ ճյուղին, համապատասխանում է հայերեն Հասան-Ջալալյաններ հոդվածին։ Իսկ Ջալալ Ա հայերեն հոդվածը վերաբերում է Խաչենի տեր Հասան-Ջալալ Դոլային, այսինքն՝ անձին։--Vacio (talk) 08:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Շնորակալություն տվածդ տեղեկության համար, որովհետև ես չէի նկատել նշված հոդվածը:--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Artsakh

Hey, you added dubious tags to three sentences in this article if I'm not mistaken. Do you have any sources that refute those sentence? For example, the one that says, "In ancient times the area was inhabited by various people of non-Armenian and for the most part non-Indo-European origin". Thanks, Khoikhoi 05:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have a source, the encyclopedia "Iranica", which says that Armenian lived since 7 BC there: Bordering on Media, Cappadocia, and Assyria, the Armenians settled, according to classical sources (beginning with Herodotus and Xenophon), in the east Anatolian mountains along the Araxes (Aras) river and around Mt. Ararat, Lake Van, Lake Rezaiyeh, and the upper courses of the Euphrates and Tigris; they extended as far north as the Cyrus (Kur) river. To that region they seem to have immigrated only about the 7th century B.C.'' [1]--Vacio (talk) 05:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also make doubt on the verios tribe names, which are mentioned as the ancient habitants of Artsakh, since historical sources place the most of this tribes in other regions of the Southern Caucasus, but not in Artsakh. For example, Movses Kalankatvatsi mentions about Gargars, who lived near the Greater Caucasus mountains, Strabo says Casps lived in Caspiane (Paytakaran).

Please also note, that Grandmaster accuses the Armenian historian Ulubabyan, but he self tries to distort historical facts. The historiographer Movses Kaghankatvatsi clearly says that the Mihranid Family, which settled in Gardman, succeeded the Haykazuni-Arranshahik Family. Grandmaster changed this sentence in the article Mihranids and wrote that they succeeded that Albanian Arsacid dynasty (see here). He and some other users try to disguise the fact that till the second half of the 7th century an Armenian Royal Family existed in Artakh and Utik, that's why they are dead against the map I have made. --Vacio (talk) 05:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Iranica's a good source as well. However, the source currently cited in the article is Hewsen, is it not? IMO both pass the reliable source test. Movses Kalankatvatsi and Strabo are primary sources, it's not our job as Wikipedians to interpret them ourselves. If you doubt something, please show me the 3rd party sources that agree with you in the case of the names of the ancient inhabitants of Artsakh.

Regarding the map: What I don't understand is that a lot of the stuff Ulubabyan writes seems to be disputed by Azeris, while most of the stuff that is written by Hewsen for example is agreed upon by both Armenians and Azeris (more or less). So why pick the more controversial source for the less controversial one? Khoikhoi 09:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the main goal of the map I have made, is to show the internal arrangement of Artsakh and Utik, i.e. their cantons, cities, castles, rivers etc. In the map of Hewsen one can't learn much more about this regions, than that they were then part of Armenia. The reason I used Ulubabyan and not Hewsen, was that he gave a very detailed map of this region. And he is trustworthy as well, btw. the city Tigranakert shown in his map was excavated in 2005.

Please also note, this map is totally handmade with Photoshop, so I have spent a lot of time on it and can't make a new one. Although I have made some changes on it tring to reach a consensus

I have removed Kambisena as the domain of the Arranshahiks, since that may be disputable
I have replaed Armenian eastern lands, 5-7cc with Artsakh and Utik, 5-7cc.

I think the objections of Grandmaster are not enough for removing the map. First he said, Arsakh and Utik were then ruled by Mihranids. Now that Arranshahik is not a family name but a title and that Albania was not on the left bank of Kura but right. I dont think I must continue the discussion on talk:Artsakh about the map, since I find it despotic. Azeri users use a map on Caucasian Albania which shows Albania with the left bank of Kura, while authors as Robert Hewsen, say in 2nd c. BC the latter was part of Medes and then of Armenia, thus a far more questionable map.

I have made other maps as well([2], [3], [4]), which were useful for wikipedia. And now I fill quite disappointed in my contributions for Wikipedia. I want to know what exacty is wrong in the map I have made and if I may place it back to the aticle Artsakh. --Vacio (talk) 14:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Barev. Please email me when you have the time. I have two maps that you might find interesting. They are extremely detailed, and include all the things you've mentioned as well (cantons, cities, castles, rivers, etc). I'm sure that Ulubabyan is a trustworthy source, but he seems to be disputed by Azeri historians. The way I see it, when you have two sources, one is praised mostly by Armenians, and the other is praised by both Armenians and Azeris, why not use the latter? Now I honestly appreciate the hard work you put into making this map, but sometimes we need to make concessions in editing disputes and go with a solution that everyone agrees upon. The two changes you made are good, but there still appear to be some problems judging by the talk page. I have emailed a couple of professors on Armenian Studies and we'll see what they say. However while we're waiting, please email me and I'll show you the maps. Perhaps we can some to an agreement on the map at Caucasian Albania, but I'd like to take things one step at a time. Khoikhoi 08:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thanks for your willingness to help. I'm afraid it will be hard to reach a consensus in talk:Artsakh. The discussion is very vehement and it is even not very clear for me what exactly is reprehensible for Grandmaster and others in the map. Critique of experts can be very helpful, it is a good idea to consult them. --Vacio (talk) 04:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, check your email. Also, please be aware of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. The latter case basically states that some form of restrictions can be applied to users that edit war on Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles. I can't do anything myself since I'm involved in this dispute, and I'm not placing you on restrictions either. This is just a heads up for the future. Consider sticking to the one-revert rule, which although is not an official policy, can be helpful to follow. Khoikhoi 07:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NKR

Vacio, could you please replace the Dutch version of the Wiki map of the NKR with an English version? Also, please take note of the following recent information concerning the incorrect name "Nagorno-Karabakh."

The word form "Nagorno-" is a combining element that was used before the adjective "Karabakhskaya" in Russian to form the name of the former administrative entity known as the "Nagorno-Karabakhskaya Avtonomnaya Oblast'." When used before the noun "Karabakh" instead of before the adjective "Karabakhskaya," however, the correct word form is the masculine adjective "Nagornyy" (spelled more simply as "Nagorny") rather than the combining element "Nagorno-." The name form "Nagorno-Karabakh," as a proper noun, is, therefore, the result of a translation error and should be replaced by the correct form "Nagorny Karabakh." Atelerix (talk) 21:00, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Several international organizations have now begun to use the correct form "Nagorny Karabakh" in place of "Nagorno-Karabakh." See the following websites:

http://www.c-r.org/our-work/accord/nagorny-karabakh/index.php

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/11/mil-071129-rianovosti02.htm

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/azerbaijan-armenia-photos-201206

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa//repertoire/89-92/CHAPTER%208/EUROPE/item%2019_Nagorny-Karabakh.pdf

Atelerix (talk) 17:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for you interest. I will translate the map. But I am not sure to use Nagorny Karabakh, Since I made this map for wikipedia, I will only change the name when it is done here as well. --Vacio (talk) 14:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Առանշահիկների քարտեզը

Բարև սիրելի Վաչագան, այն քարտեզը, որ դու ավելացրեցիր Արցախի հոդվածում՝ ունի երկու տառասխալ: Նախ՝ այսպես գրված վերնագիրը՝ "Royal Demense..." պետք է գրվի՝ "Royal Domains". Երկրորդ՝ "Mayor religious centres" պետք է գրվի՝ "Major religious centers", ըստ ամերիկյան անգլերենի ուղղագրության համաձայն:--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Այո՛, սիրելի Վաչագան՝ մեզ հավանական է թվում, որ հայերեն «ռ» տառի ամենալավ ներկայացուցիչը անգլերնով կլինի՝ «rr». Մեր ադրբեջանցի մասնակիցներ պնդում են ոչ թե միայն անգլերեն աղբյուրներ օգտագործենք, այլ՝ իրանց ուզած աղբյուրները :) Չնայաց այս գրքի հեղինակները նկարագրում են Լեոի երկերը հետևյալ բառով՝ «authoritative», այսինքն՝ «հեղինակավոր»: Ամեն դեպքում կարելի է փորձել և տեսնել թե ինչ արդյունք է տալիս:--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Սիրելի Վաչագան, դժբախտաբար, այդ գիրքը չունեմ մոտս, քանի որ պետք է գնամ գրադարանից վերցնեմ: Ի միջ այլոց, արդյոք դու ստացա՞ր իմ նամակը, որը ուղարկել էի ի-մայլով:--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1RR warn

See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. You are now subject to these restrictions, including but not limited to 1RR. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Given the lack of justification, I suggest you appeal against this, asap. Meowy 19:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeap, he messed up here. Even with a proper justification (which clearly lacks here) he's supposed to warn you and can't put you under any restrictions without a prior warning. You should report Rlevse here: Wikipedia:AE.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, consider yourself not restricted at this time, but duly warned you will be next time. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another admin we need to watch for bias (or more likely for plain oldfashioned shoot-first, think-later, apologise-never). Meowy 21:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh really, what about this diff: here, still on his user page? — Rlevse • Talk • 09:52, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And your point is? The racist and ill-conceived AA2 restrictions, dreamed up by a set of couldn't-care-less admins who couldn't even be bothered to defend their positions and correct their own obvious mistakes, are long past their disposal date. Just as you can judge a person by the company he keeps, you can judge administrator by the rules he/she wants to impose on others. Meowy 20:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a place for soapboxing. Admins don't make rules, they implement them. Rlevse or any other admin did not draft AA2 restrictions, they were imposed by the arbitration committee. Vacio clearly deserved his parole, as he was warned to cease edit warning, but chose to continue. However Rlevse was given a misleading info by certain people, and generously gave Vacio another chance. Yet you keep on attacking him. Why? Grandmaster (talk) 04:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Admins do make the rules, and as individuals they chose when and if to apply them. The arbitration committee that dreamed up the original AA2 remedy was composed of administrators. You, Grandmaster, were one of the first to be affected by these restrictions, yet, rather than try to point out their flaws, you instead decided to use them to your own advantage by trying to get as many editors as possible tarred with the same brush. However, in the long term it has given you no advantage: you have, because of your serial complaining, made yourself a laughing-stock amongst other editors. Meowy 23:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I am quite unacquainted with Wikipedia rules; if someone would explain me which rule(s) I have violated, I'll try to keep to the prescripts next time. --Vacio (talk) 11:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rlevse. I think you have failed to notice one important thing: when I was accused by Grandmaster, you didn't pay attention to the fact, that he was concerned in the mentioned edit-war. I think I am treatend unjustly since it seems you rebuked me without examine into the real causes of that edit-war. First, on the Mihranids article Grandmaster tampered with a primary source (I don't know whether he did it consciously or not, but he deed it twice). After finaly "Arsacid dynasty of Caucasian Albania" was replaced with "ancient Armenian Erranshahik family" (as the source states), Grandmaster contrasted a statement of R. Hewsen with this primary source (or its English transl.), and that in such a way as if according to Hewsen the Erranshahiks were not Armenian, though that statement was not directly and explicitly concerning the Erranshahiks and I declared that he engaged in OR. Even after I quoted an other work of Hewsen wfich refers to them as an "Armenian princely house", Grandmaster is still blaming me for deleting Hewsen from the article (?).

Second, Grandmaster derives from the studies of R. Hewsen some statements, which are not directly stated by the author (see quotes: [5][6]): Grandmaster is sure about Armenian legendary figures as Hayk and Sisak, that they were certainly not real persons. And see what is he then doing with these: according to the primary sources Aran was a descendent of this Hayk and Sisak, in the article Artsakh Grandmaster added to this: However, Hayk and Sisak were just eponyms and not real persons, (11) so Aran (if he actually existed) could not be their descendant. When I tried to reach a consensus by replacing this statement with the mention that Aran was a descendant of old mythical kings of Armenia, Grandmaster removed the word mythical, and once again stressed that they were not real persons. For the same reason I had reverted his edit in Caucasian Albania, when he replaced "However it is uncertain whether Aran and Sisak were real or imaginary persons." (a sourced statement) with "However, Sisak is thought to have been just an eponym and a not real person." referring to the same work of Hewsen, thus once more stressing the assertion that Sisak was not a real person, while all R. Hewsen says is "Sisak... can only be another eponym, and a late one at that. Sisak is said to have been the ancestor of the princes of Siwnik', a province on the southern border of Geghak’uni". Even after I tried to combine this two sources (Hewsen and Kramers), Grandmaster was not satisfied and blamed me improperly.

I wandered why it was so important for him to stress that Sisak is not a real person. And I found the answer: because Aran was to be the ancestor of Caucasian Albanians. Only the title of the text of Kaghankatvatsi, which was used as source there, says how ridiculous this history fabrication is: "Chapter 4. Vagharshak appoints a ruler (i.e. Aran) over the Albanians". Hence my "reverts" (actually my remove of 'ancestor') in Caucasian Albania I was blamed for.

Thus your reaction was quite superficial. If you would closely look to the matter, than, I suppose, at least you should warn us both. Since now I fill rather threatened than disciplined. It seems reverting counterfeit edits is worser than adding biased or unverified statments in wikipedia articles. --Vacio (talk) 15:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Andersen map

I don't see why you're discussing the validity of that map. It's irrelevant. If they want to get rid of it, they need to go through the proper Wiki process of doing so. Which is next to impossible to do.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 13:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm rather flustered... this is the third time I'm apposed to use a map of Nagorno-Karabakh. One is still discussed on an other article (see talk:Artsakh#Ulubabyan). --Vacio (talk) 10:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Artsakh

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Vacio. Both you and Grandmaster are warned, the article is full protected and you are now under AA/AA2 restrictions. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 106: / Line 106: @@
 I don't see why you're discussing the validity of that map. It's irrelevant. If they want to get rid of it, they need to go through the proper Wiki process of doing so. Which is next to impossible to do.--<big>''' [[User:Eupator|<font color=#00N510>Ευπάτωρ]] '''</font></big><sup><small>[[User_Talk:Eupator|<font color=#974423>Talk!!]]</sup></small></font> 13:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 :I'm rather flustered... this is the third time I'm apposed to use a map of Nagorno-Karabakh. One is still discussed on an other article (see [[talk:Artsakh#Ulubabyan]]). --[[User:Vacio|Vacio]] ([[User talk:Vacio#top|talk]]) 10:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
+==Artsakh==
+See [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Vacio]]. Both you and Grandmaster are warned, the article is full protected and you are now under AA/AA2 restrictions. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Rlevse|<span style="color:#060;">'''''R''levse'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|<span style="color:#990;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 12:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)