User talk:JakeInJoisey

/Anatomy of an NPOV Disaster - Swift Vets and POWs for Truth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:LINKSTOAVOID

Ownership

Please stop assuming ownership of articles such as Swift Vets and POWs for Truth‎. Doing so may lead to disruptive behavior such as edit wars and is a violation of policy, which may lead to a block from editing. Continuing to blanket revert with the edit summary NICW "Controversial Topic" - Please discuss before editing - see discuss will lead to a block for disruptive behavior. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Swiftboating article

Jake - There has been a flurry of editing over at the Swiftboating article, with all sorts of opinion and wrong information thrown in. You are good about checking in on these articles, so I thought you'd want to know about that one too. I've tried to return it to its "original" version, but am pretty sure there will be plenty more edits made. Maybe there should be some sort of editing lock put on the page for awhile, 'till things settle down... ? --EECEE (talk) 08:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

EECEE, I've managed to stay clear of that imbroglio and have too much on my personal plate right now to even go near it.

I will say this tho, the "controversial" placard is on the talk page for a sound reason and its guidance should be adhered to religiously, threats of "ownership" notwithstanding. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks Jake.--EECEE (talk) 07:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Jake - I am aware of the potentially controversial nature of the article, but I think that my edit did not insert any controversial information. I just added the link to "swiftboating" as a term into the article header because I noticed that it was only mentioned 5 pages into the article... Since my edit is neither substantial nor particularly partisan (in my opinion), I decided to be bold and forego an exhaustive discussion pre-edit. If you think that this is wrong, please say so. - Marcika (talk) 12:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Nice

I like your username haha. A8UDI 18:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

External links & malware

Because I was unsuccessful in soliciting advice on this subject from individual users, I've raised the issue at the External Links Noticeboard. Since you've got all the details, I suggest you explain the whole issue there.

Full link to the discussion A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 04:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Authorlink

No problem. Figuring out some of the behind the scenes stuff like templates can take a while. Happy editing! Coemgenus 14:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

BLP violation notification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#BLP_vios_now_in_retaliation_on_the_World_Net_Dailying You are summoned there. Jon Osterman (talk) 14:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Alleged BLP violation notification

It is generally advisable to utilize the following Wikipedia recommended language in an AN/I alert to a fellow editor...

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

"Summoned" presents a rather pugilistic tone that is discouraged in the Wikipedia process...and the more appropriate word is "alleged".

For anyone interested in the response: WP/ANI Archive 602 --JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

ANI report

Though you're probably already aware, I have reported your recent disruptive behavior to WP:ANI. I also take offense that you made an accusation against me at ANI without giving notice. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

That's "alleged" disruptive behavior. For anyone interested in the response: WP ANI Archive 602--JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Reliable Source

Would you mind letting me know when it is safe to edit the WorldNetDaily article, I don't mind waiting until your discussion is through. I only chanced upon the article today and knew little about them - only that a lot of the article content was obviously original research and without sources. Cheers. Weakopedia (talk) 21:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Replied at my talk page.--Happysomeone (talk) 20:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

See your user page

Congrats and good job Weaponbb7 (talk) 03:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Quick note

Just letting you know I haven't forgotten our discussions. Been a bit preoccupied very recently, but it is still very high on my list and I expect to be giving it more of my attention very soon. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 22:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the advisory...and, given yesterday's activity, I'm encouraged that the RS/N is still there to respond to. BTW, your willingness to at least engage is rather singular...and commendable. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Just a note

I'm not an admin. I'm just trying to keep the talk page readable. Thanks for giving the table a better title. --TS 23:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

...but the editor who reinstated your edit is. For the record, I would never and have never, ever presumed to edit the content or even the format of some other editor's contribution to a "talk" environment without at least the courtesy of some explanation or dialogue as to a rationale. Quite frankly, the thought of "collapsing" that table hadn't even occured to me...and, after some consideration, I actually LIKE it better that way (save for the title) and probably would have been easily swayed by a moment of dialogue. Kinda has that allure of viewing something hidden, ya know? Anyway, I suppose I could have been less caustic in my initial revert, and for that I apologize...but it's awful WARM in there right now. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Some advice

Take a break from your arguments about WND at WP:RSN. Let the current thread about WND fade into the archives naturally. By pushing this as you are, you run the risk of turning away editors who might actually support you.

Come back to RSN when you have a question about a specific citation supporting a specific statement in a specific article (ie "Is X from WND reliable for saying Y in article Z (include a link to dif so people can see exactly what you are talking about). Blueboar (talk) 23:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the advice and the spirit in which it is offered (seriously). However, I believe this RS/N road being traveled on WND may well pay possible dividends, not only for a more clear and credible assertion as to WND RS, but to RS considerations to other "sources" subject to the same, incessant RS/N inquiries as well. I believe Xenophrenic has that same type of resolution in mind...albeit a different "consensus".

As to the current imbroglio, it strains credulity (IMHO), given the opinions expressed in these 2 RS/N's thus far, that this ongoing RS/N might be considered even nearly "resolved" or that, even were a legitimate statement of "consensus" to be made right now, that the curent declared "consensus" could even pass a smell test. The next WND RS "objection" is going to point right back to that abominable "summary" of "consensus". No thanks Blueboar. Just...no thanks. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that is a serious mistake. You really are coming across as the one being disruptive in all this. I strongly suspect that if you continue to push it, you will end up being blocked for a while. Still... its your call. Blueboar (talk) 00:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm making every effort I can muster to keep this current discussion academic...but examining "sacred cows" is not without some potential consequence I guess. Your call right now, I'd suggest, Blueboar, is to examine the evidence and make a determination as to the validity of David Eppstein's summary archive. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I have already done so... and found both his arguments and yours to be flawed. My opinion on the whole WND debate is that it should end... now... and only be re-opened if and when specifics are supplied as to exactly what material from WND we are talking about, and what statement in which article we are talking about. Blueboar (talk) 02:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Quite respectfully, you are simply being unresponsive to the question. Anyone rational should be more than capable of making a qualified assessment based on the material I presented versus Eppstein's "summation", nor has he presented ANY "argument" in defense of that assessment more than parroting the same overripe assessment of the earlier archiver...but thanks anyway. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 06:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Correct... I am intentionally being unresponsive... because the entire debate centers on a false premise. Blueboar (talk) 13:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Final warning

If you remove Blaxthos' opinion from your chart again ([1], [2]) I will seek to have you restricted from further editing of RSN or it's accompanied talk page. Only warning. Hipocrite (talk) 01:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

He is not changing your comments or their meaning. He is placing his opinion within a table which you happened to have made. Removing his input is a violation of what you continue to claim. –Turian (talk) 02:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

My summary of participating editor's contributions to the RS/N was made on the occasion of the premature and unilateral archiving of the RS/N. At the time of that archival, User:Blaxthos had made no contribution to either RS/N and would have had no bearing on the validity of the "archive summary" as it currently exists. If he wants a new chart, I'd suggest he makes his own to make whatever point it is he wishes to assert. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Stop being a drama queen and actually discuss what is going on. Your constant reverts are nothing but disruptive. –Turian (talk) 02:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources noticeboard & AN/I

Note: For any interested observer: AN/I Petition JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Regarding this and the spurious report you made to the edit-warring noticeboard, please take this as notice that if you continue to act in a non-collegial and disruptive manner on this page, you may be blocked or otherwise restricted from editing this page. Black Kite 13:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Spurious?

All text that you did not write yourself, except brief excerpts, must be available under terms consistent with Wikipedia's Terms of Use before you submit it.

Remarkable. Quite remarkable...and quite a precedent indeed. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Precedent? Sorry - no. You made a report to the edit-warring noticeboard which did not contain any edits by the editors you mentioned which violated any of the policies for which that noticeboard exists. Thus it is spurious. Indeed, the only person that appears to be edit-warring and causing disruption at the RSN is yourself. This is not a difficult concept - if you post anything outside your own userspace on Wikipedia you agree that it may be edited by other people subject of course to our policies on talkpage etiquette, civility, edit-warring and other collegial guidelines. If you do not want that to happen, then the only thing for you to do is create your content in your own sandbox and link to from the RSN page. And even then, if it contains comments about the opinions of other editors which they do not believe is correct, they can ask to have those comments corrected or removed. Black Kite 16:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll presume no further on your time or mine attempting to demonstrate to you that the editing of the content I authored fundamentally altered the purpose for which I composed it. Nor will I further suggest the relevancy of the PRIMARY directive under Talk page guidlines,Editing Comments, Other's Comments which reads as follows...

Never edit someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page.

Nor will I attempt to demonstrate to you the breadth of diversity of opinion on the topic nor the speciousness of the "summary archive" imposed by the "archiver" that is demonstrated by that table I authored. Nor will I argue further that you have set a "precedent" indeed for something I haven't seen the likes of (the editing of another author's COMMENTS in "talk" [for gawd's sake]) in my 5+ years of editing in this medium.

Good day to you sir. JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, last attempt; if you post information on a talkpage which purports to represent all interested editor's views on an issue, you should not be surprised if (a) editors who you've missed out add themselves to that information, or (b) if editors who believe you've misrepresented them change that information. It's as simple as that. If you don't want your edits altering, don't attempt to represent anyone's opinion but your own without their express permission. I hope that's clear now. Thanks, Black Kite 18:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

...if you post information on a talkpage which purports to represent all interested editor's views on an issue,...

Um...you left out a rather salient qualifier, "...who had contributed to the RS/N prior to the archival". Do you even have a clue about what's transpiring in that discussion, more particularly, in those edits?

...and may I also add (as long as you insist on pursuing the subject), it might have been, shall we say, somewhat Solomonesque had you been even 1/10th as solicitous of my position prior to pronouncing your summary execution.JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, from a brief view of the entire talkpage it appears that you are agitating for this website to be regarded as a reliable source for citations other than about itself, when there is a long history of general consensus that it is not. Would that be a correct summary? Incidentally, I just had a brief look at the website myself, clicked on the first news story ([3]) and saw adverts for "NOBAMA" t-shirts, an advert saying "Stop Liberal Media Bias!", ad no less than seven special offers - from the website itself - for anti-Obama merchandise. This doesn't strike me as something that anyone should be claiming as a reliable source, any more than over here in the UK we'd try to use the Morning Star, for example. Black Kite 19:45, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Sir. The venue for your exploration of the RS/N issues are the RS/N's, not my talk page. The venue for the exploration of my petition should have been the AN/I, not my talk page. I'm done here. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

P.S. & FYI User talk:Blaxthos#Edit warring JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

WND & "Sacred Cows"

Jake, why are you so concerned about this one source? The Internet contains dozens/hundreds of reliable sources (BBC News, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, etc.). Why not just find another one?

BTW, I suggest you drop this soon. You're starting to piss off the regulars at WP:RSN. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

While it shouldn't surprise you (and, if it does, then I'd suggest both myself and Xenophrenic have failed dismally to inspire it), at this point WND's WP:RS status has paled in importance, IMHO, relative to the importance of elevating RS/N's on ideologically biased sources to something more than vote tabulations to see who can gather the most "me too's". Perhaps a hypothetical...

Assume, for the sake of argument, that a "Consensus" is illegitimate in its foundation in fact...and let's call it a "sacred cow". The veracity and viability of that "sacred cow" can only be maintained by the REPETITION of its existence by its progenitors and adherents. Under what method of legitimate intellectual examination for validity might that "sacred cow" be tested WITHOUT inspiring some frustration and/or subsequent allegations of "disruption" by those same progenitors and/or proponents? Suppose we start there? The floor is yours.

P.S. I've taken the liberty of re-titling the section. Plz feel free to amend it at your discretionJakeInJoisey (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

At best, you can open a RfC or post a message at WP:V and ask for more feedback. However, this might be seen as forum-shopping and disruptive behavior, so I don't recommend it at this point. I recommend you find a source like BBC News, Washington Post, etc. for your cites. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I recommend you find a source like BBC News, Washington Post, etc. for your cites.

"Cites" to what purpose? These 2 WND RS/N's passed well beyond a consideration of specific cites to a consideration of the totality of WND WP:RS long ago. (on Edit) In fact, upon re-consideration, the RS/N themselves, as presented, don't even refer to specific cites. Your comment is not clear. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Fan Mail

How about you stop being disruptive and whiny? All of these problems have stemmed from your behavior. It must be easy pointing the finger at someone else for all of your problems. Also, you have no right to edit his post. Sound familiar? It's the dead horse you beat the hell out of yet yelled at others for doing the same. –Turian (talk) 14:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Always a delight to see you stopping by Turian...and your provision of Exhibit 1 is timely and appreciated. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Blocked

I thought the polite request above to stop disrupting the RS/N talkpage was fairly clear - so I'm not entirely sure why you thought this and some of the other edits you made to the page today would be a good idea. Removing a personal attack? Fine. Refactoring other people's comments yet again? Disruptive. Thus...

You have been temporarily blocked from editing for persistent disruption at WP:RS/N after repeated warnings. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|Your reason here}} below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Black Kite 14:27, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Your notation and acknowledgement that a "personal attack" was leveled against me within the RS/N "talk" environment is appreciated. However, for clarity and so that I might fully comprehend the rationale for this block, please cite, specifically, the instances of "Refactoring other people's comments yet again" to which you refered but did not specify. Thank you. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I would not have had a problem with you removing the "troll" part of Blaxthos' comment. However, removing all of his comments, not just that part, was incorrect. More importantly, the link I gave above shows you removing David Eppstein's comment and replacing it with your own which is exactly what you were told not to keep doing above. Black Kite 14:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate both your consideration of my inquiry and your reply. Now, if I understand your position correctly, I am being "blocked" due to my "refactoring" (assumedly the same as "removal" in toto) of Blaxthos' "Disruptive Behavior" section in the RS/N "Talk" environment and because my "edit" of the existing "archival summary" composition was "disruptive". I should have noted this in my first inquiry, but you also mention "some of the other edits you made to the page today" as reflecting, perhaps, the antithesis of "a good idea" inre, I can only assume, editorial contribution. Shall I assume that equates to being "disruptive" as well? If so, can you please cite, specifically, the "other edits" to which your observation refers? Thank you. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

WND discussions

Just so you know... I have archived both the discussions about WND on the main RSN board and the disruptive talk page discussions. I left the "archive summary" in your version (this means you can say you "won" the debate about that and you have no reason to de-archive it). I hope you will consider the matter closed when you return from your block. Blueboar (talk) 18:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

It is somewhat ironic that your apparent desire to just "make this go away" has, in effect, simply assured that the same issue will now be resurrected again, still in fine fettle, in an assuredly upcoming RS/N. I tried. I believe Xenophrenic tried (though not nearly as hard)...and at least one other contributor saw some wisdom in making the effort.

As to my personal views on your particular contributions to this RS/N (though you appear to be under little or no personal constraint in offering your observations on or characterizations of MY contributions), in the interest of peace on earth, I'll decline to comment...save for one observation.

IMHO, it is only by the slimmest of threads and vestiges of personal intellectual integrity you have remnant that I would even choose to consider entertaining your observations...on anything. I believe you knew (all along) that the "archival summary" statement by David Eppstein wouldn't even pass a smell test no less an examination as to the veracity of its summation. My now-infamous "table" (relatively speaking anyway) put the "fallacy" stamp to that...pronto. Yet you said or did NOTHING to rebut that patent untruth...simply because you were unhappy with the "framing" of the "question" as posed in the RS/N. Some "profile in courage". Not until the RS/N was on life-support did you finally man-up enough to state what you KNEW to be true all along...that the "archival summary" was FALSE...and you took the a step necessary to correct the summary. You can sleep better at night for that. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Given the issues raised in the previous RS/N, I would suggest that any further discussion of this issue be raised at an RfC, because I am pretty sure that the patience of the RS/N board has been exhausted by now. This would allow you to frame your arguments in a far more neutral venue and one that has many more eyes on it than RS/N. Black Kite

With all due respect sir, this (cough) "discussion" was initiated by more gratuitous insult guised as informative comment. As to your participation in this issue, I have made an inquiry (as I believe I am entitled to do) as to the exact nature of the rationale for the "block" you have imposed. Rather than cluttering my talk page with "advice" as to how to further address a subject about which you demonstrably had little or no prior knowledge, perhaps you would better serve your function by responding to my inquiry above so that I might afford myself of some opportunity for defense, an opportunity previously denied me in your last summary execution. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe I have to state the obvious repeatedly. My above comment, however, was actually aimed at enabling you to bring your concerns to a more neutral forum that hasn't already been tainted by the previous issues. This was meant to be helpful to you; you can take it as you wish; this will be my last comment here. However, please note that if you cause disruption at RS/N again, as is siggested by your comment above "the same issue will now be resurrected again, still in fine fettle, in an assuredly upcoming RS/N" it is likely that the community's patience will run out completely. Black Kite 00:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)