User talk:Nipsonanomhmata

Kostas Novakis

What language do you think he sings in? Why would he have given the CD's the Macedonian titles of "Ponuda od Solun", "Belo pole do Beloto More", if he was not recording songs in Macedonian? Lunch for Two (talk) 12:27, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I can only speculate what language he sings in since the reference that has been provided does not specify what language he sings in. And certainly it does not refer to a language called "Macedonian", only to "Slavic".  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 12:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Thats an interesting speculation. If a person has given their CD a title in Macedonian, would it not be assumed that the language to be used in the CD is also Macedonian? This does not need to be sourced. Lunch for Two (talk) 12:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Nowhere does it say "Macedonian language" and the Slavic languages are all so similar. It could easily be Bulgarian. What is clear is that it is Slavic.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 12:44, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

To quote him "The observation of the tradition and the Macedonian folklore are in my blood since childhood". I wonder why he would be creating songs in Bulgarian?. Lunch for Two (talk) 12:48, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the tradition and the folklore of Macedonia in Greece.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 00:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Besides, in Bulgarian is would be от Солун, where in Macedonian (as on the CD) it is од Солун [1], not to mention the fact that there are sufficient sources where it is recognised as Macedonian. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Nowhere in the reference does it refer to the Slavic language used as the "Macedonian language". Do you have any independent WP:RS that refers to it as such in relation to the work of Novakis.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Have a look at the talk page, this issue has come up again and again, and commonsense showed that language he sings in is Macedonian. You are clutching at straws jumping from WP:NPOV to WP:RS to WP:AFD in the hope that this person doesn't exist and neither does the language. An Admin needs to step in here. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:49, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

All you need to do is provide an independent WP:RS.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

They have been provided, you have chosen to reject them. Here is one from the mainstream Dnevnik newspaper. Furthermore he is a member of the "Center for Macedonian Culture" and the CD's have the titles in the Macedonian language, what more do you need? Lunch for Two (talk) 14:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

That's not an independent WP:RS is it? The source has a domain name ending in .mk. How is that independent? You cannot use the CDs as a reference because those are published by this musician.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you explain to me why the text on the CD is not an indicator that the language is Macedonian? Why is a domain ending in .mk unreliable? (have you checked wp:newsorg?) Lunch for Two (talk) 14:09, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

You cannot use the CD as a reference. It is published by Novakis. It is a self-reference and is not independent. Similarly you cannot use a .mk reference for identity and language. I could use the same Greek reference that you have used to say that the language is Slavic period and that would be a WP:RS and contest any claims that the language is anything else but I have not done that. Moreover, Novakis is in the middle of an overlap in a Venn diagram. His origins are Slavic and he is from the region called Macedonia in Greece. He also speaks Greek in the Macedonian dialect of the Greek language which also happens to be called "Macedonian". You need an independent WP:RS (not published by a .mk or Novakis) that backs up what you are saying.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:19, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Is this sufficient? "three CD’s of Macedonian music and songs have been produced – a first in Greece", and they don't mean "Greek Macedonian", they mean ethnically Macedonian. [2] Lunch for Two (talk) 14:28, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Therein lies the problem. It does not say "ethnic Macedonian". It just says "Macedonian". We are back to the overlap on the Venn diagram.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

We do not overlap to the Venn diagram, The second part of the sentence clarifies it all "a first in Greece". It is clearly not the first time "Greek Macedonian" music/songs have been produced in greece, but it is the first time ethnic Macedonian music/songs have. Is this not true? Lunch for Two (talk) 14:38, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

That's unreferenced speculation. Moreover, it is not clear whether these are Greek songs that have been translated in to Slavic or whether the original origin is Slavic. Nor is it clear what the geographical origins of the Slavic songs are. They may have originally been Bulgarian songs that have been adapted in variant Slavic languages. Who can tell. There are no WP:RS that explain it.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:41, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Lunch for Two (talk) 15:05, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I managed to get a look at an original CD, the contents, and the cover. Novakis himself refers to "Slavomakedonika" and that he has recorded Slavic-language songs from people who live in Macedonia in Greece. Nowhere does he refer to an "ethnic Macedonian" language. Nor does he refer to a "Macedonian" language. In fact, it is quite clear that he is not. I suspect that the overlap in the Venn diagram makes it easy for POV to sway the interpretation.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 19:26, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Slavomakedonika = Slavomacedonian (Have a look at Macedonian language, it is another name for this language) You want a Venn diagram, lets have one. Factors showing that the language is Macedonian and Mr Novakis identifies as an ethnic Macedonian

• 1. Attendance at ethnic Macedonian festivites in R. of Macedonia. [3]
• 2. Being a member of the "Home of Macedonian Civilisation" (an ethnic Macedonian group based in Lerin/Florina)
• 3. The langauge of the CD's is refered to as Macedonian "Po~esen gostin na ovaa sredba be{e i gospodinot Kostas Novakis od Solun koj izdade CD so makedonski pesni, poblikuvano vo R.Grcija. /The respected guest for the evening was Mr Kostas Novakis from Solun who produce CD with Macedonian songs published in Greece" (In this context Macedonian means Macedonian) [4]
• 4. The European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages, a minority language group, writes "With the assistance and support of the Greek Committee of EBLUL three CD’s of Macedonian music and songs have been produced – a first in Greece – using material collected by a member of the Centre for Macedonian Culture and associate of our committee, the dentist Kostas Novakis." The context of the article makes it clear that the songs being sung are in Macedonian. [5]
• 5. Numerous references to the CD's being comprised of Macedonian songs/македонски песни being sung in an Aegean Macedonian dialect/дијалектот од егејскиот дел на Македонија again feature in another article. [6]
• 6. All of his CD's have been published using the Standard Macedonian language. [7].

This is more then enough to meet WP:RS, W:NPOV and does not constitute WP:OR. Lunch for Two (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Slavomakedonika = Slavomacedonian (the Slavic language used by people of Slavic origin who reside in the Macedonian region of Greece). Not a "Macedonian" language. Novakis himself does not identify himself with "Macedonian" as you are describing it.

• 1. Attendance at festivities does not identify himself as anything more than someone interested in Slavic festivals. If your intention is to identify what ethnicity he is then that reference is not an independent reference for that purpose.
• 2. Being a member of an organisation does not mean anything at all. Anybody can become a member of that organisation and they do not have to be of a specific ethnicity.
• 3. Yet another non-independent source that purports what kind of "Macedonian" Mr Novakis is. When Mr. Novakis himself makes it perfectly clear what he is.
• 4. The EBLUL does not make it explicit that the "Macedonian" that it refers to is identified as a language. Moreover, the assertion that is made by EBLUL is unreferenced and unsubstantiated in itself and does not correspond with what Mr Novakis has published himself.
• 5. More references that do not concur with what Novakis has said himself. None of them are independent. None of them meet WP:RS.
• 6. You cannot use his own self-published work as a WP:RS. But if you think you can, then so can I, and on the CDs he makes it absolutely clear that he is a man of Slavic origins from the Macedonian region of Greece and that he calls the songs Slavomacedonian. Nowhere does he refer to them as "Macedonian"-language or Slavomacedonian-language songs. In the Greek language that Mr Novakis uses on his own CD Slavomacedonian specifically means Slavic-language in the Macedonian region of Greece. He also makes it perfectly clear that the songs that he has recorded, he recorded from people with Slavic roots who live in the Macedonian region of Greece (before he made his own recordings with musicians). Moreover, there are no independent reliable sources that indicate what the geographical origins of the songs are. They could just as easily be songs from Bulgaria, Romania, or Albania, that have passed from country to country and from person to person.
  

It makes no difference whatsoever what the results of the AfD are. This article as it currently stands does not meet WP:GNG. Mr Novakis is not a notable dentist or musician. There are not enough WP:RS to meet WP:GNG or WP:MUSICIAN. You have a very strong POV and I respect that but the article is not encyclopaedic and it has been force-fed WP:OR and WP:POV that does not correspond with what Mr Novakis himself has written.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 00:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Question

N, I just want to ask why do you feel your argument at Kostas Novakis has been "ignored" to quote you. Why is it that you do not believe the language Mr. Novakis' is singing local songs in the Macedonian language? You do know that the Macedonian language is spoken by people living in Greece, don't you? It feels to me like you have simply done a WP:CRYSTALLBALL, and considered every other possibility except for the one which seems most obvious. Lunch for Two (talk) 08:12, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Both of you are ignoring quotations from the very references that you are using. There is nothing in the Eleftherotypia article or on Novakis CDs that claims or confirms that there is a distinct "Macedonian language". On the contrary, both sources confirm the exact opposite. Both sources clearly indicate that the songs are in the Slavic language and that the ethnic origin of the Slavic is unknown. Moreover, the Eleftherotypia article actually confirms that the ethnicity of the individuals who sang the songs within Macedonia in Greece is Greek. Personally, I think that they cannot all be Greek. But the Eleftherotypia article says Greek Civil War refugees who have returned from a neighbouring Slavic country. Fut Perf has made a big deal about the way "Macedonian" is used to describe one song and has assumed that it is ok to label all of the songs as "ethnic Macedonian". One song out of a thousand plus songs. Thus far I have seen no source that shows that this one song is on any of the three CDs and it is not representative in any case. It is not reasonable to claim, and I must underline claim (because the claim is unreferenceable), that all the songs on the CDs are originally "ethnic Macedonian" when the origin of the Slavic language songs is unconfirmed and the ethnicity of those who recited the songs, as per Eleftherotypia article, discounts that. Moreover, from further research that I've done and for which I have not yet found WP:RS sources, the style of the music used in the Macedonian region of Greece for the majority of the songs is very similar to the style of music used in Bulgaria. I am not trying to claim that none of the songs are originally from Yugoslavia. I personally wouldn't be surprised if some or many were. But it is obvious that neither Novakis himself or Eleftherotypia says what the origin of the songs are (other than they were recorded in the Macedonia region of Greece and were originally brought in from Slavic countries). Moreover, I would also not be surprised if at least some of the songs were not originally from Serbia due to the very close relationship between Serbia and Greece and notably during the First World War. Therefore I have no choice but to dispute what is undoubtedly an unrepresentative and unreferenced claim.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:16, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

You are ignoring the Dnevnik article [8] and treating the Eleftherotypia as the "be all and end all" of the matter. This is Novakis' quote from the Dnevnik Article "Имам записи на магнетофон на околу 1.000 песни со оригинално пеење на постари жители, а и јас ги испеав на дијалектот од егејскиот дел на Македонија./The fostering of traditions and of traditional Macedonian folklore have been in my blood since childhood. I have records of roughly 1,000 songs with the original singing from the older inhabitants, and I have sung them in the dialect of the Aegean part of Macedonia." What do you have to say to this? He is clearly referring to the language he speaks as an Aegean Macedonian dialect.

The Dnevnik article then goes on to say "Во Грција е издадено првото цеде со 13 изворни македонски песни, кое го снимиле Костас и Харула Новакис./In Greece the first CD with 13 traditional/original Macedonian songs, which were recorded by Kostas and Harula Novakis". Contrary to your WP:CrystallBalling the songs have no link to Yugoslavia or Bulgaria, but are homegrown Macedonian language songs sung in Greece. Kind of like the songs being sung by the links on my user page... Lunch for Two (talk) 03:19, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Your interpretation of this quotation disputes what it says on Novakis' CDs and in the Eleftherotypia article. Yes, these songs were recorded in the Macedonian region of Greece. Yes, these are traditional Slavic-language songs. No, there is no WP:RS evidence that the origin of these songs can be attributed to a specific Slavic-speaking region. Moreover, there is WP:RS evidence that the origin cannot be attributed to any single Slavic-speaking region. Moreover, there is WP:RS evidence that the origins of these songs is from outside the borders of the Macedonian region of Greece. Furthermore, if Fut Perf is right about that one song, and I very much doubt it, that is only one song out of 1,000 plus songs. btw Your interpretation of WP:CRYSTALBALL is incorrect and you are claiming WP:CRYSTALBALL incorrectly.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 12:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

zeibeks - zeibekiko

source concealing I think that someone is trying of source concealing, if you notice something strainge, restore the source: [9] --Merovigla (talk) 19:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

You are fighting a pointless battle against one of the most experienced Wikipedians (Constantine) and the most power-mad Wikipedian (not Constantine). Suggest that you at least talk with Constantine on the talk page. He can be helpful and you might be able to persuade him to adopt a change.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 03:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

what does it mean You are fighting one of the most experienced Wikipedians. Its about the reality, could say madnesses doesnt mean users adopt it the same, the person is obviously a liar and deliberately concealer ::79.103.71.162 (talk) 15:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

He's just following the Wikipedia rules which sometimes make him look like that.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 16:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

How often do I have to tell you?

For the fourth time now: My posting from 18 August at Talk:Kostas Novakis#Unacceptable revert-warring with the five numbered points is one single posting, and it must remain uninterrupted. You are not allowed to interrupt it with interjected comments by yourself. Don't try that again or I'll have to ask for you to be blocked. If you want to respond to one of the numbered points, do it somewhere underneath. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Then I suggest that you strike that sentence because there is no truth in it. I will escalate if you don't. You belligerently accuse me of edit-warring on that article when I have done no such thing. You do it aggressively and without foundation.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:44, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

My statement is perfectly true: you were edit-warring prior to the time I wrote it; it's easy to list the diffs. But if you want to raise an objection, fine, go ahead. JUST DON'T DO IT INSIDE MY POSTING. Got it now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I was not edit-warring and you cannot prove it because there is no such evidence. Get off my talkpage and stay off. Moreover, there is more evidence that you have been edit-warring and without justification. Including the deletion of a tag, without discussing it first, that I placed there justifiably.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The tag was removed because it had no basis. The issue pertaining to what langauge he sings in was proven/agreed upon in 2008, and in 2011 this decision was reinforced. Lunch for Two (talk) 14:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Disputed. And that's why I placed the tag there. It's a tag that indicates there is a dispute. The dispute requires discussion on the talkpage. I didn't place it there for Future Perfect at Sunrise's target practice.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you should focus all discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard, I mean it is only here that a binding decision will be reached (The time for talk pages has passed). Lunch for Two (talk) 14:24, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You are right. But Fut Perf is like the annoying mosquito that arrives when you put your head on the pillow and close your eyes. More like a swarm of stalking mosquitoes arriving from multiple directions at the same time.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:34, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi

Hi, Nipsonanomhmata. I don't understand problem between you and Future Perfect at Sunrise. But I understand that it's very difficult for us to delete articles of unknown musicians. We couldn't delete even this article :)) Takabeg (talk) 14:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

It's very easy to understand the problem between Future Perfect at Sunrise and me. The problem is Future Perfect at Sunrise who spent months stalking me when I first arrived on Wikipedia. Who still follows me around when I make comments concerning articles at AfD. Future Perfect at Sunrise is an aggressive serial stalker.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:17, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

No personal attacks

Normally, I'm pretty lenient on incivility, but making allegations of criminal behaviour against a contributor is beyond the pale. Assuming you meant "wikistalking" and not actual stalking, please actually use that word. If that wasn't bad enough, you later compared him with a mass murderer. That's totally unacceptable. If you keep this up, I'll make a complaint to ANI to have you blocked for gross personal attacks. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:01, 31 August 2011 (UTC)