Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (3rd nomination)

Bullshido.net

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net
• Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (3rd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (4th nomination)

Bullshido.net (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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The admin who closed the previous debate wrote, "The result was No consensus - however, following a request, I have no problem with a re-nomination here, as I was very close to deleting this for lack of reliable sources." With Black Kite (talk · contribs)'s permission, I have re-nominated the article.

The nominator of the previous debate is correct when s/he said that the references in the article are not nontrivial, independent reliable sources that specifically discuss Bullshido.net. I have analyzed and listed the sources in the article as of this revision:

Analysis of the sources in the article

1. This article from Rocky Mountain News mentions Bullshido.net in passing. The only time this website is referenced in this article is: "This week, Browning, 38, posted on the Web site Bullshido.net an exhaustive dissection of Bannon's published claims, which he has investigated over the past two years. He dismisses Bannon's story as tortured fiction." This does gives no context about Bullshido.net, save that it is a website and a man named Browning has posted on it to debunk another man's story. 2. http://realbullshido.blogspot.com/ – Blogspot is not a reliable source. It is a collection of blogs that can be written by anyone who signs up. 3. http://www.themartialist.com/bullshidofaq.htm is written by Phil Elmore, a man who has been attacked by Bullshido; Elmore writes "The Bullshido.com FAQ incorrectly describes Pax Baculum (and, I suppose, The Martialist and me) as somehow other than "up front about the evidence that exists today."" This is not an neutral article about Bullshido.net. Having read through the article, I have concluded that it is a attack on Bullshido.net. Furthermore and most importantly though, it has not been given the editorial oversight and fact-checking that reliable sources (such as newspapers, magazines, and journals) are given. 4. http://web.petabox.bibalex.org/web/20060504091905/http://www.ashidakim.com/shitlist.html is the same as the fourth source. It was written by someone who has been attacked by Bullshido.net. It is a personal website by an individual called Ashida Kim (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashida Kim (7th nomination)) has also not been given the editorial oversight and fact-checking that reliable sources (such as newspapers, magazines, and journals) are given. 5. The reference that states that Bullshido.net is the "[s]eventh in Alexia category on last view" points to http://www.alexa.com/topsites/category. This link does not lead to anything about Bullshido.net. 6. This article from Rocky Mountain News does not even mention Bullshido.net. 7. This article from Interpol.com is the same as #6. It does not even mention Bullshido.net. 8. http://ashidakim.com/10k.html is from the same source as #4. Not only is it an unreliable source, but it also doesn't even mention Bullshido.net. 9. This article from The Believer (magazine) does not even mention Bullshido.net. 10. http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=28Ashida – a link from Bullshido.net cannnot be a neutral, independent reliable source about itself. 11. http://www.bullshido.org/Ashida_Kim – this is the same as #8. 12. http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=160 – this is the same as #8. 13. http://dojopress.com/catalogms2.html – This unreliable source is a catalogue for selling memberships. Even if it were reliable, it would not be a sufficient source because it doesn't mention Bullshido.net.

I have done much research about this website and have been unable to find any sufficient reliable sources about it. My searches included trawling through several pages of Google results, Google News Archive, Google Books, Google Scholar, and Yahoo!. If this site were truly notable as the above "keep" voters suggest, there should be sufficient sources about it. However, I have been unable to find any.

I am opposed to the merge suggested above by the wub (talk · contribs). There are absolutely no reliable sources that discuss Bullshido.net. Even the passing mentions from reliable sources (see #1) do not provide enough context to justify a stub.

I am also opposed to a redirect to David "Race" Bannon. A member of Bullshido.net may have posted information about Bannon, but that does not guarantee that the website should be mentioned in Bannon's article. Having searched through results (using the search term "Banno bullshido.net"), I have been unable to locate any reliable sources that indicate that Bullshido.net played major role in debunking Bannon's claims. The best source about Bullshido.net and Banno that I could find was this article from Rocky Mountain News. The article states: "This week, Browning, 38, posted on the Web site Bullshido.net an exhaustive dissection of Bannon's published claims, which he has investigated over the past two years." This passing mention that provides little context does not justify a redirect or a merge.

The "keep" votes in the previous debate stated that "Bullshido is quite a notable organization within the martial arts community" and "one of the most notable martial arts web sites", but I have been unable to uncover anything to substantiate their claims. Cunard (talk) 22:40, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• Keep and Procedurally Close AFD you can't renominate an AFD one day after the previous one is closed because you didn't like the results. You are supposed to take it to DRV. This superfluous AFD should be procedurally closed on the grounds that it goes against protocol. Theserialcomma (talk) 23:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• That would be true, if it weren't for Black Kite's closing statement, which makes it clear that this AfD is an exception to the normal rule because Cunard has explicit permission to renominate at once.

  Delete per my previous argument.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 23:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• When the closing admin has granted leave to speedily renominate, there is no problem with speedy renomination. As to the merits, my !vote is delete per nom's thorough and exhaustive analysis of the sources. Cunard has said all that needs to be said. Tim Song (talk) 00:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
• Keep large [1] and significant martial arts web forum. JJL (talk) 01:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

• Big-boards.com is not a reliable source. The website posts user-submitted information about the website. I can't see how Bullshido.net has a high ranking; the unreliable source you gave ranks it as the 898th most-viewed martial arts site. That's not significant enough to indicate notability. Cunard (talk) 02:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. —JJL (talk) 01:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Sources show that the mainstream media cites the site as the main source on the topic. [2]. The site is clearly notable in the normal sense of the word. While not traditionally reliable sources [3] provides plenty of information. So IAR keep from me. Plus I strongly dislike the relisting so rapidly. We don't bounce things around until we get the result we like, even if we are an admin. Hobit (talk) 05:38, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Calling those sources "mainstream media" is a narrow definition of "mainstream media," to put it mildly: they are, in order, the Charlotte Observer, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, the Rocky Mountain News, The University of Hawaii Kaleo, and TV.com, besides one German and one Israeli site--but the article from the German website (not a very reliable source) is about the German rapper, and the Israeli site is a message board. Drmies (talk) 05:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) According to the Wikipedia article about The Examiner, it "is a news site based in Denver, Colorado that allows local citizen journalists to share their city-based knowledge on a blog-like platform, in over 60 cities in the United States." It's fairly straightforward that this article is not a reliable source. The article is not written neutrally (e.g. "Site founder and professional snarky libertarian Neal “Phrost” Fletcher"), and the author of it even states that "If the article seems to have a positive bias, it's because I've already recommended this resource." The Examiner source, though not adequate, is much better than the sources put forward by the participants of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination).

    We don't bounce things around until we get the result we like, even if we are an admin. Please explain. I'm not an admin, and I do not wish to be one. I re-nominated the article for deletion after asking the closing admin for leave to speedily renominate the article. The closing admin then tweaked the closing rationale, writing that "following a request, I have no problem with a re-nomination here, as I was very close to deleting this for lack of reliable sources." I re-nominated the article for deletion because no one responded to my delete arguments, either to rebut them or agree with them. Cunard (talk) 06:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

comment you renominated the article for deletion a day after it was closed because you didn't like the fact that your arguments were ignored. why are you taking it so personally? The Keep votes were mostly 'IAR, this is an important site,' not 'this site has 11 nytimes sources'. yes, the sources are weak. but the article deserves to be here regardless because it's a big deal in the martial arts community. i cannot believe that you renominated this so quickly just because people ignored your arguments. oh my god Theserialcomma (talk) 07:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)