Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Józef Piłsudski

Józef Piłsudski

An important figure in interwar Polish and European history. Over the past year I have verified all facts with a two-part biography and expanded the article. GA since June 7, 2006. MILHIST A-class since October 3, 2006. PS. See here for old (July 10, 2006) FAC nom.. Comments appreciated.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 00:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks like this article has some image copyright issues. According to the image page, Image:Herb Piłsudski.PNG is a copyvio because it's over 150×150, but that's easily fixed by reducing the image. Image:Pilsudski in Bristol.jpg is more complex. It says it was taken in July 1923 and claims life+70. However, there is no indication of who took the photo, let alone when he died. There are some other images that have a similar uncertainty. There's a possibility of {{PD-Poland}}, although the image would still (probably) be considered copyright in the US, which leaves it still non-free. Pagrashtak 20:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Image:Herb Piłsudski.PNG is not a copyvio, since the permission allows us to use larger images if they were upload before certain date (which this image passes). I am not sure what to do with the other image, though. We could perhaps remove it - we have enough images in the article to lose one or two photos without any pain.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 00:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The larger images are allowed if uploaded before 11 Nov 2005, but this image was uploaded 17 Feb 2007. Am I missing something? Pagrashtak 05:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh. Mathiasrex. Sorry, I misread the date. Can you upload the low-res variant instead? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 05:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Very well written and references, includes everything one should find in a featured article. I fully support this nomination. JRWalko 01:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Well referenced, nicely written. I believe we could fix the photo formatting to use standard thumb parameter instead of fixed width, but that's a minor issue. //Halibutt 09:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

• Sure Hali, well referenced, nicely written, just like your similarly well referenced, nicely written article about Zalavas. (please look at my comment on its talk page). Dr. Dan 03:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support Well referenced, well written, and well formatted. Jay32183 01:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Article have potential to be FA but not as current version. Problems which faces current version are listed on talk. I will briefly point out some of them. First of all there was suggestion to implement in the article's lead formulation Lithuanian descent, this was not addressed. About Pilsudski's young days - some fact also missing, like that his family called him under his Lithuanian name Juozukas rather then Józef. In my opinion this is more important then saga how he lost his teeth. Other problems: article lacks person in question own words and stated views presentation. For instance why such strong strong statment like Piłsudski was aware that the Bolsheviks were not friends of independent Poland, and that war with them was inevitable. not present with own Pilsudski's words for it, rather then historians interpretation and speculations. Examples can be found like in Winston Churchill article, there his views, criticism presented by his words. There was attempt to fix this problem, for instance presenting his view about Poland as a nation of morons (as cited in N. Davies; Heart of Europe: A Short History of Poland.p.139), but it was removed under inconclusive arguments. Also article lacks critical assessment and information, for instance we have an information that Pilsudski believed in the rule of strong hand, while original statment provides that Pilsudski believed that the world was ruled by brute force, and that fundamental changes could only be obtained, or essential interests defended, by the willingness to use violence, terror, and military power. So we have and contributors' personal interpretation with it (in the rule of strong hand). In other words article should present source's information rather then its interpretation by editors. Other points - Death section should be expanded as it was important development not only to his followers but also to his enemies, etc. If I remember correctly, initially was prohibition to entomb him in Wawel. Moving to other problems, there is and weaseling problems like Edward Rydz-Śmigły was seen by some as Piłsudski's successor etc. so article have to be greatly improved. M.K. 14:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

• Lithuanian descent is mentioned in lead family with traditions dating back to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
• That "his family called him under his Lithuanian name Juozukas rather then Józef" is news by me, no such argument was made on talk or in article, no refs to back it up were presented and I have not read anything like this in the biographies I have read.
• Piłsudski was aware that the Bolsheviks were not friends of independent Poland, and that war with them was inevitable. This is a referenced statement. Further, Urbanowski states clearly this is based on Piłsudski's own words - see Piłsudski Józef, Pisma zbiorowe: wydanie prac dotychczas drukiem ogłoszonych, tome VII, p.147. Unfortunatly I don't have this publication at hand to quote Piłsudski, but verifiable claim by a reliable historian seems to agree with our policies
• As the discussion at article's talk page shown, the quote is 1) offensive 2) out of context. For interested editors, the full speech in which he uses the quote that Poland is a nation of morons is here; briefly, Piłsudski is criticizing (Polish) politicians, and to argue that he thought all Poles are morons is incorrect - and again, offensive. It is further surprising that certain editors push to have this quote included, but ignore a bunch of other quotes where Piłsudski made positive comments about Poles, or positive or negative comments about Lithuanians, Russians, French, British, Germans, the West, particular regions of Poland, politicians, communists, soldiers, particular individuals, and so on. Let us remember that encyclopedia should not go for the 'shock value' with (incorrect and controversial) quotations. We have wikiquote for the latter, and the discussed quote is there.
• Pilsudski believed in the rule of strong hand. As explained on talk 1) we should not quote other authors when we can paraphrase their arguments 2) this sentence paraphrases the particular claim quite well. I find it also puzzling that one can argue against inclusion of an opinion of certain author in one sentence, and then complain about paraphrasing (not removal!) of another author's opinion in the next.
• I located a book that should help to expand this section; it is indeed a bit short. I will do so shortly.
• Edward Rydz-Śmigły was seen by some as Piłsudski's successor. This sentence is referenced to a reliable historical work. I see nothing controversial in it. If you want to rephrase it, go right ahead.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 17:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Answering your points. Hardly traditions dating back GDL times in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. PLC was not formed then family traditions was emerging. Of course it depends what family defines.
2. About Juozukas. Looking to this comment it looks like biographies which you read lacks some important info, including how Pilsudski name originated as well. BTW, can you suggest if these biographies which you read states anything about languages he spoke?
3. Well try to acquire this publication as it do much good if the original words will be added.
4. Regarding quote of nation of morons; Hardly argument that person's in question remarks are rude allows it to remove from text. Quite contrary it can perfectly fit to describe his views on nationality etc. And you missing the main point - article about person in question written with non crucial comments of his own. What did he think launching one of another military campaign, how he addressed to his opponents and similar. It is unbelievable that in his biographies such or similar quotes are not provided.
5. About strong hand. Original quote: Pilsudski believed that the world was ruled by brute force, and that fundamental changes could only be obtained, or essential interests defended, by the willingness to use violence, terror, and military power. From this quote other contributors could summarize that Pilsudski supported terrorism, other may argue why not summarize that Pilsudski believed in brute force etc. And this is potential disagreement area, WP:OR should be advised as well. Inclusion proper citation in the main text itself will solve any future misinterpretations
6. Regarding Edward Rydz per WP:WEASEL insert source in caption, or yet better state clearly who saw him as successor. M.K. 10:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

1. This is why I wrote the Piłsudski (family) article. From the various refs provided it is quite clear that PLC was a major influence on the family. Sure, the name can be traced to pre-PLC Lithuania, but the polonization of szlachta by 20th century was a much more relevant factor.
2. Yes, he spoke Polish (primarily), although I believe I read somewhere he knew other languages - probably Russian (education), maybe Lithuanian and German. I will see if I can find out more. As for the origins of the name of Piłsudski, Piłsudski (family) is the place to discuss it. And you still need to present a single source that would state he was called Juozukas by his family (according to Urbanowski, his childhood nickname was 'Ziuk'); or a source that his family knew Lithuanian at all and in particular, used it among themselves.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 14:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
3. I don't believe it is of utmost importance. I will see what I can do, but if you disagree, feel free to do it yourself - you have demonstrated that you know Polish language, so nothing should be stopping you.
4. Biographies are not collections of quotes.
5. Paraphrasing is not OR, it is recommended by SUMMARY, CITE and V, among others.
6. The source is given (inline citation). I will see if there is room to clarify which factions supported him and saw him as Piłsudski's successor.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 14:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support. The article covers every important information I can think of and it's well referenced. McMonster 18:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support Szczepan1990 18:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Very well written, referenced and formatted. Visor 18:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support with one caveat. I think the name of the article should be Jozef Pilsudski. --evrik ^(talk) 19:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Nihil novi 01:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. One-sided picture. Pilsudski made a number of public statements that were striking then and remain striking today: called Parliament prostitutes (Time magazine [1]) and a "sterile jabbering thing", an attitude summarized as "contemptuous of democracy". [2]. Many more criticisms are out there; "crushing of democracy" rather than "disillusioned with democracy" as currently stated [3], "the bereza concentration camp (Bereza Kartuska) was a blot on Poland's image as a civilized state" [4] Weakened the miltary, did nothing for the economy, from the University of Glasgow: "In the Army, a Pilsudski-ite past became crucial. In 1926 only 10% of army officers had served in the Legions, but by 1939 that figure had risen to 70%. They usually lacked formal military training, and had won their advancement in the Polish-Russian War. This led to the overrating of cavalry to the detriment of armour and aircraft." "Despite this vast power, the BBWR-Pilsudski-military régime did virtually nothing. The economy was still stagnating well after the Depression: unemployment in real terms reached almost 40%, and 52% of Polish industry and capital was owned by foreigners. On the land, the situation was appalling: poverty and hunger increased steadily." [5] Re the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact: Pilsudksi stated that he would like Hitler to "stay in power as long as possible".[6]. Fostered a cult of personality [7] Problematic in terms of legacy: From the National Review: "pre-war Eastern European regimes were hardly paragons of tolerance and democracy. Pilsudski, today's hero (and the man who framed the 1935 Constitution under which the London government continued to exist), killed several times more people in his 1926 coup than the hated Jaruzelski did under martial law." [8] From the New York Times: "He led his country's struggle for independence and democracy but later, until his death in 1935, presided over the disabling of parliamentary government."The prewar regime is beyond criticism," he (Bronislaw Geremek, described by the Times as a distinguished Polish historian and dissident) said. "Pilsudski's flaws are not mentioned." [9] The nature of his rule is much discussed by historians - Hannah Arendt being possibly the most prominent of those who called him a Fascist (ref on request, from Men in Dark Times). And many more. Novickas 02:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• One sided how? Criticism is present. Most of what you write above is mentioned in article - that Piłsudski's government was opposed to parliamentary democracy, authoritarian, criticism of his handling of military, and so on. I have not found any works criticizing his handling of the economy - first, he didn't dabble in it much, second, there was a Great Depression era. I am sorry that your favorites are not there, but you can certainly add the quotes to wikiquote, as we discussed on talk. It is not possible to accommodate every single quote and historian's (or famous writer's) remark in an article.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 03:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• It is quite well illustrated how article is one sided. Besides it was a bit of surprise to find out that Pilsudski wanted to see Adolf Hitler in power as long as possible. Besides we have his own words, (which this article lacks in general) " but I would like to see him stay in power as long as possible". M.K. 10:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• It is not surprising once you consider the time and place. Piłsudski died in 1935, well before Hitler became seen as the 'bad guy'; up to '39 most of the countries - included the West and the Baltics - tried to be on the 'good side' of Hitlerite Germany. That Poland too wanted a stable relation with Germany - is hardly strange. And do note that Piłsudski in fact proposed a military intervention against Hitler in early 30s, when Hitler first started to violate the international treaties imposed on Germany after Versailles - but France refused, the west chose the policy of appeasement, and hence Piłsudski, knowing that Poland alone is too weak to deal with Germany, was forced to appease its neighbor, too. I belive we have a paragraph describing Polish-German relations of that period and Piłsudski's role in signing the Polish-German Non-Aggression Pact - so it is all well covered. PS. As far as quotes go we could as well quote Piłsudski's critiques of fascism (Urbanowski, v.2, p.486)-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 14:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The article needs a dedicated criticism and controversy section, like those in other FAs (Mahatma Ghandi, Che Guevara). The world's criticism, and that of fellow Poles, could be concisely stated there in several paragraphs. Novickas 15:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Currently the criticism is spread throughout various sections. Since we don't have the 'praise' or 'achievements' section, I believe it is more neutral that way.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 15:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support. A very good article about one of greatest Poles of all times Tymek 03:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support - well-referenced, balanced, comprehensive portrayal of a crucial figure in early-20th century Europe. Appears to meet all FA criteria. Three points: 1: 'bojówki' or bojówki? Let's stay with one standard. 2: do we know what kind of a socialist he was, what intellectual tradition he fit within? Was he more sympathetic to factory workers or farmers? What indeed were his views on industry and agriculture? Did he ever embrace or critique Marxism? I'm not even sure if any of this is intrinsically relevant, but perhaps a paragraph on his political thought (touching on social issues) would be in order? 3: what, if any, were his religious beliefs? Did he take a position on the Alexander Nevsky Cathedral episode? What relations did he have with the Catholic hierarchy? Biruitorul 06:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Re 'bojówki' vs bojówki - any idea what MoS would reccomend? Interesting comment on his socialist past; I will see if I can find more on any of this. As for religion, it is my understanding he was not deeply religious, and saw religion as a tool, but I will again see if I can dug up more reliable info on that. Thanks for the insightful comments, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 14:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Urbanowski in his second volume has a chapter Specyfika socjalizmu Piłsudskiego. Briefly, in his youth he supported marxism - as did other socialist of that era - but he always mixed it up with the pro-independence rhetoric. Later he distanced itself from it, seeing it as obsolete - although till the very end he supported some of its ideas (worker rights, etc.). As for religion, Urbanowski is again helpful, with chapter Bogowie i definicje. As he nicely puts it, all honest discussions on Piłsudski's faith should end with a question mark, not a full stop. Piłsudski had his own beliefs and was not overly religious. His conversions between various Christian denominations were pragmatic (related to his marriages). -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 18:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support - the article is balanced and adequatly referenced, there is no need for over-simplifications about Piłsudski's nationality. Mieciu K 14:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Very well-written and comprehensive article. Skillfully addresses all major criticism and presents comprehensive image of his life. He was a difficult and controversial person, so well-written article about him is like a precious treasure. One comment: maybe number of pictures should be trimmed a little bit and images reformatted. - Darwinek 22:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Excellent article, on a difficult, yet important subject. The article is well referenced, well written, and well formatted. It definitely rises to the level of featured article. Turgidson 23:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)