Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nazi monuments in Canada

List of Nazi monuments in Canada

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List of Nazi monuments in Canada (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Reposting a malformed AfD request, see below. 162 etc. (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

It’s a useless list containing only 3 items, and a POV pusher. I suggest to merge it to the article Canadian war memorials. The three items should get added to the said article, and this page should become a redirect. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• But those aren’t Canadian War memorials. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
  • @Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 so you propose to merge or delete? GizzyCatBella🍁 20:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
    • Merge to a more suitable list, change the tile, or delete. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
• Procedural close or Keep. This is a notable topic that satisfied WP:GNG and also WP:NLIST. Of course it's a difficult topic, and it's a topic that has indeed be something where misinformation is pushed, but we should not avoid difficult topics. This has been discussed extensively at Talk:List_of_Nazi_monuments_in_Canada but we have not reached consensus, discussion has included if the title is best, and also deletion and also merging.

We should keep this due to the significant coverage in reliable sources. Examples:

1. https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canada-nazi-monuments-antisemitism/
2. https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/progressalberta/pages/2693/attachments/original/1594062960/Per_Anders_Rudling_-_Nationalist_Monuments_in_Canada.pdf?1594062960
3. https://jacobin.com/2022/11/roman-shukhevych-monument-canada-nazi-ukrainian-ultranationalism

I note the points made on the talk page about if it is fair to call these monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators, so for the avoidance of doubt:

1. Two of these are monuments to the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician). Yes indeed, the SS, a Nazi organisation
2. One of these is a monument to Roman Shukhevych, his collaboration with Nazis is well document on his page.

WP:NLIST is satisfied as many sources deal with these collectively, some as mentioned above, others clearly do, I don't think I need to list them.

In reply to the POV pushing that is being accused, what is the point of view that is being pushed? Is it that these are Nazi memorials? That is very well documented in reliable sources. I see why this is a difficult topic and at a difficult time, I am sympathetic, but there is no original research happening here. Canada has Nazi memorials and it's hitting the news, being a notable topic, and an appropriate one for Wikipedia.

Edit: procedural close because renaming discussion is ongoing on the talk page and appears to solve the complaints of the nominator to their satisfaction "Honestly, if I saw this comment before submitting the AFD, maybe I would not have submitted it." CT55555 (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• • @CT55555:, Have you read this article? Calling them Nazi monuments is oversimplified and a needless POV pusher. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:53, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

But the renaming discussion was closed a procedural close. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:03, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

If this closes, you can reopen it (which was confirmed in the closing notes). CT55555 (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

But I agree with Michael. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:20, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

• Delete. This "list" only has three entries (two of which have Wikipedia articles), and I agree with the proposer that the title is needlessly NPOV. 162 etc. (talk) 20:50, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
• Delete as a WP:POVFORK WP:CONTENTFORK. The content included to the 3-item list is already covered on a number of other pages. This is all about the Ukrainian "Nazi". Therefore, one might also argue this is also an attack page, but I would say just "inherently POV". I can elaborate these points later (do not have time right now). My very best wishes (talk) 20:57, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  The initial version of this page had four examples, one was French. You started a merge discussion asking that the French example be removed. So it's only about Ukraine because you pushed the article in that direction. This seems unfair. CT55555 (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  The french example was removed because it wasn't a monument Tristario (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and I think you elaborated the point about the content fork in your comment below already.My very best wishes (talk) 23:39, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Even if the French example gets added back, that won’t solve the POV problem. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:19, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

• Keep - as this is a notable issue in Canada (see sources) but I’m open to adjusting the title. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, every subject in the list is individually notable (all three of them). That's why we have such pages. But I do not think this is a legitimate list as a POV fork. If it was a regular page, if it was titled differently and written differently, as I suggested on talk, then maybe. But in the present state I think it better be deleted.My very best wishes (talk) 23:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

As I said, this is a major issue in Canada (for years). Here what Ottawa Citizen daily writes about it - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:42, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:ATD is policy and directs us clearly that If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting CT55555 (talk) 05:44, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

• Delete. The content of this article is already covered by the articles 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician), Roman Shukhevych statue (Edmonton) and St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery. I don't see any good reasons why we need a separate three entry list of these monuments/memorials - not every collection of three items needs to be made into a separate article listing them on wikipedia - WP:CONTENTFORK also applies here. There has also been a great deal of difficulty of choosing a WP:NPOV name for this article - Some people want the name "Nazi monuments", but there is only one source, which is a biased source and arguable an opinion piece, which (without attribution or scarequotes, and per WP:HEADLINES in the body of the article) refers to them directly as "nazi monuments". There is also this source, which quotes a historian that pushes back against the straightout "Nazi" label. In terms of the wording used by sources, they typically say nazi collaborators (or some variant) when talking about the nazi connection, but there's a lot of variety in how the sources in the article label these monuments, and they usually quote different viewpoints, making it hard to decide on a label. The nature of making a list like this where you group items like this together is that you have to make a judgement on what the best collective description is - and that naturally brings in WP:NPOV issues, which is a difficulty that isn't necessary to deal with in the first place, since I think this falls under WP:CONTENTFORK--Tristario (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Politics, Lists, and Canada. Skynxnex (talk) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment User:My_very_best_wishes has made a sensible suggestion which does open the door to a compromise solution, perhaps suggesting the AFD is a bit hasty. CT55555 (talk) 21:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  Note - Proposal of the move is live at the same time - proposed by the same user. [1] GizzyCatBella🍁 22:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  WP:FORUMSHOPing is a poor way to reach consensus on anything. CT55555 (talk) 22:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. CT55555 (talk) 22:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
• Delete WP:FORK of 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician), Roman Shukhevych statue (Edmonton) and St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery and not actually a list article. MrsSnoozyTurtle 02:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

  I've read WP:FORK and cannot see how it applies to any wikipedia article, it's about people plagiarising the encyclopaedia off the encyclopaedia. CT55555 (talk) 05:54, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

  See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia). It was deleted as a POV fork (and also per crystalball but POV fork is what care about in this discussion). -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:10, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment The guideline WP:POVFORK states that a PV Fork is a clearly defined thing that occurs when a disagreement is unresolved and then someone creates an article. That didn't happen here. This guideline is being quoted incorrectly. I didn't fork this out of anything, I was just writing an article about a journalist and learned about these monuments, saw there was no article and created one. Please, let's quote the right policy, which is WP:GNG and WP:NLIST and discuss it in relation to them. CT55555 (talk) 05:50, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

  I think a lot of people when they say WP:FORK or WP:POVFORK actually mean WP:CONTENTFORK, which is what I linked to in my vote, and which does apply here. WP:POVFORK also says that's how they "generally arise" - it doesn't say that's how POVFORKS always arise. Tristario (talk) 10:15, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don't like to make so many comments, but the arguments to delete have shifted, so this seems necessary. WP:CONTENTFORKING is not inherently bad or good, it's just a thing that happens. What needs to be avoid is a WP:REDUNDANTFORK, as they duplicate content. Of course this is a list, and some items do have their own article, but that is quite normal. Nowhere on wikipedia deals with these types of monuments collectively, so this is not a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. CT55555 (talk) 16:15, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment Some clarity is needed here. Is the proposal:
  • to delete the article because it doesn't meet WP:GNG or WP:NLIST, or
  • to delete the article because there's a protracted dispute over its title? Because WP:LOUSYTITLE is a WP:SURMOUNTABLE problem.

The arguments at the talk page are chiefly about NPOV in the title, which is of course a perfectly valid concern. But this article was nominated for AFD in the middle of the second move proposal by the AFD nominator, and the nominator has made it clear both here and at the article talk page that a move to their preferred title is acceptable.

So if this article is deleted WP:GNG and/or WP:NLIST, then it's also deleted under an alternative title, such as List of Ukrainian Insurgent Army monuments in Canada, or Ukrainian World War II memorials in Canada, correct? Storchy (talk) 09:45, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

The main arguments for the deletion are WP:CONTENTFORK (which people often equate or mix up with WP:FORK or WP:POVFORK) or WP:POVFORK, and that it isn't a good list (which arguably relates to WP:NLIST). The issues over the title are related to the content forking, because creating an (unnecessary) article like this where you need to create a generalized label creates NPOV difficulties, and it can be argued the existence of the article pushes a particular POV. I prefer deletion over a name change (for reasons in my above comment), but people are allowed to have preferences for multiple options, that doesn't necessarily undermine their arguments. I assume if it's deleted it's deleted under any name. Tristario (talk) 10:03, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Speedy delete  Because the encyclopedia shouldn’t demonize national groups. Shukhevych was not a Nazi and the article about him doesn’t define him as one, and the Canadian organizations associated with the monument are not Nazi organizations. The members of the Galicia Division, one of the German foreign legions, were not Nazis and the article about the unit does not define them or the unit as such, and neither is St. Michael’s church and cemetery in Edmonton Nazi organizations. Nor was the Ukrainian Insurgent Army a Nazi military, and the article about it doesn’t define it as such, nor are St. Volodymyr cathedral and cemetery in Oakville Nazi. Reliable sources do not call any of these things “Nazi.” The existence of this list violates WP:LIBEL, and the topic falls within the purview of WP:ACDS as falling under Eastern European subjects. —Michael Z. 15:26, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

So why WP:RS call these controversial statutes 'Nazi' monuments in Canada? (page 126) Are we supposed to follow WP:RS or the opinion of a few Wikipedians? Tell me all you folks because I'm lost. 🙂 - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:09, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a good article in the Time of Israel (Russia’s ‘denazification’ lie and the whitewash of Roman Shukhevych) about the problem today’s Ukraine is facing, the problem, that if not addressed, will always haunt Ukraine. (always). - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)