Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman (3rd nomination)

Richard Tylman

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman
• Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman (2nd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman (3rd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman (4th nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman (5th nomination)

Richard Tylman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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I'm (procedurally) starting another AfD for this article, since the outcome of the previous AfD was "endorsed pending the final decision in the related ArbCom case". It is alleged that the previous AfDs were subject to votestacking.

For the relevant history, one could review the arbcom case, the previous AfD, WP:COIN thread and the Deletion review.

The previous nomination is quoted below:

The subject of this article fails both WP:ARTIST and WP:AUTHOR, and appears to be have been created as a vanity article. The article subject has not been the recipient of significant press coverage and bok which the subject has published appear to be more like self-published booklets. Searches for Aspidistra Press show Tylman to the only person published by this publisher, indicating self published works. Richard_Tylman#Poetry confirms this as it says they are self published. There are no critical reviews or commentary of his works, so notability as an author/poet is not existent. His visual arts notability is also non-existent. There is zero notability in anything he has done in Poland before emigrating to Canada. His working as an airbrush illustrator is not notable - this occupation is a dime a dozen, and it would appear that the long list of works are referenced to the actual advertisement, not critical commentary on his works. The other problem is the sourcing to Tylman's own website. Yes, the article does have a lot of sources, but none of them establish notability for the subject. Russavia ^{I'm chanting as we speak} 02:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Triplestop x3 17:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Again? Its only two months since the last AFD. Off2riorob (talk) 17:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, remember these are not normal circumstances. Triplestop x3 17:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Whats not normal about it? I don't see a good reason or a relevant change to AFD the article again. Off2riorob (talk) 18:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The previous AfD was distracted by a certain Arbcom case. I'm starting one now in hopes of focusing on the merits of the article now that the case is over with. See the Drv link above. Triplestop x3 18:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, there was somewhat of a consensus to relist the AfD after the ArbCom case is closed:[1][2] Also see the remark of the closing admin [3]SPLETTE :] ^{How's my driving?} 18:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any actual issues as regards the last AFD, imo nothing has changed since the last AFD. Off2riorob (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

There is strong suspicion that canvassing by the WP:EEML cabal influenced the previous AfD. Now that several EEML members have been topic banned, it is a good idea to try again to get a non-canvassed result. Offliner (talk) 21:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

There is strong suspicion that frequently repeating a lie convinces many people to believe it. But it never changes a lie into the truth. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:10, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see that at all, suspicions etc, I see a determined campaign to delete the article, there are better things to be deleting, there are currently over fifty two thousand BLP article without any citations at all.. but we find ourselves here for the third time, oh well, lets see what happens. Off2riorob (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

How about an assumption of good faith? freshacconci talktalk 21:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Good faith is not a cop out to stop me voicing my opinion. In a good faith way of course. Off2riorob (talk) 21:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

No one is trying to stop you from voicing your opinion (??), but statements like "a determined campaign to delete the article" push the boundaries of good faith. Triplestop clearly states that this is a procedural nomination. freshacconci talktalk 21:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC

Yes, sometimes the interpretation of good faith stops people saying what they see, there is history regarding this article, that is undeniable. Off2riorob (talk) 22:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say the AfD was canvassed. I stated that it was alleged, and presented links to the evidence for people to make their own judgment. Also, this nomination was not discussed or planned off-wiki beforehand in any way. Triplestop x3 21:57, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per nominator. Fails all five points of WP:ARTIST. Offliner (talk) 17:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. —Off2riorob (talk) 17:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. —Off2riorob (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. —Off2riorob (talk) 17:59, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, I don't see sufficient notability of the subject being established. SPLETTE :] ^{How's my driving?} 17:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. None of the sources are actually about him. Renata (talk) 20:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the Poetry-related deletion discussions. —Poeticbent talk 20:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the Authors-related deletion discussions. —Poeticbent talk 20:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of British Columbia-related deletion discussions. —Poeticbent talk 20:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• Keep Tylman's team was given an Award of Excellence at Graphex (a competition sufficiently notable to merit a Wikipedia article). That would seem to satisfy WP:ANYBIO.
  Also, Tylman was the subject of an article in Głos – Tygodnik Nowohucki. He and his poem, "An Attempt at Blowing Up the Statue of Lenin", were brought up in several interviews with the author of Nowa Huta. Okruchy życia i meandry historii, a photo anthology that includes the poem. (The authors of other texts in the anthology were not discussed.) Tylman may not be a slam-dunk case of notability, but I think the balance weighs in his favor. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep Tylman does have a degree of personal notability, easily enough to warrant an article imo. Off2riorob (talk) 22:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• How does being a team of individuals who won an industry award make him notable? He was considered an up and coming artist by the Polish newspaper, so if he were notable then surely there are more sources to show notability? Seems like a backwards WP:CRYSTAL vio to me. And how is that anthology a (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums, or had works in many significant libraries.? Looking at the notability guidelines for artists, there does not appear to be anything to distinguish him from a routine advertising illustrator/NN poet. A string of trivial coverage does is not sufficient. Triplestop x3 22:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

1. Backwards CRYSTAL? The Głos interview took place in 2003, when Tylman was hardly an "up and coming artist". And you'd know that if you spent a little time and read the article under discussion here instead of attacking it because you don't like its subject.
2. Please read WP:BIO more carefully. There is no need for a creative artist to satisfy WP:ARTIST if she or he satisfies WP:ANYBIO. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

His group, not him received the award. His group may be notable but he is not. I assure you I have no opinion of the subject as a person and am only interested in seeing a fair result from this AfD debate. The link in reference leads to the subject's own website which fails WP:V. Triplestop x3 23:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The copy on Tylman's website is a convenience link. If you don't believe it to be a true copy of the article, find the August 8, 2003, edition of Głos in a library. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's take a look at the statements sourced to the page.

In his early teens, Tylman became the youngest member of the Plastic Arts’ Club for adults[7] at the DK HiL Community Centre in Nowa Huta, and exhibited his first oil paintings in gallery group show. Following high school he enrolled at the Kraków University of Technology Faculty of Architecture, encouraged by his father.

How does being in a non-notable club and going to a University establish notability? Triplestop x3 00:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete non-notable and poorly sourced. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep per sources provided by Malik. Ikip 01:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. The article is well written and its subject is notable per sources. Please do not make WP:Battles and WP:POINTs by nominating articles for deletion.Biophys (talk) 03:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. Seems borderline notable. No BLP issues. Don't see how the encyclopedia would be improved by deleting this article. --Kotniski (talk) 08:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete - quite simply, if there is no significant coverage in independent sources we cannot write an article. The bulk of the article seems to be sourced to the subject of the article. The only source that is actually about the subject of the article is in Glos, hardly significant coverage, hardly enough to start an article. The obscurity of Glos makes it even difficult to assess whether this article satisfies WP:SPIP. Evidently this individual is like millions of professionals who have received some minor prices, and might have been mentioned in obscure publications such as Glos - but that does not mean they are notable, because notability requires significant coverage. And significant coverage is necessary to write an article, because otherwise we have articles like these that are overwhelmingly sourced to the individual and not to independent sources. Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel's Demons (talk) 11:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Most of the cited sources are obviously not written by the subject (please look in the article). As about Glos, we have Głos – Tygodnik Nowohucki. He looks like someone notabe in Poland, just as many Russian authors are only well known in Russia. But that does not preclude creating articles about them. Biophys (talk) 14:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I looked at the article, most of the references point to the webpage of the article subject. Even the Glos article was apparently written by the subject of the article, so I am not sure how notable this publication really is. A copy seems to be at the Polish national library, but neither the Krakov nor the Warsaw university library seem to hold copies what qualifies this publication as obscure, even in Poland. Again, notability requires significant coverage, and significant coverage is just not here. Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel's Demons (talk) 15:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Keep, per Malik Shabazz. Tymek (talk) 18:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete, although there are other examples of articles on Wikipedia also lacking "notability", that is not a sufficient excuse to keep this one. Having read and re-read both this article and external links related to it, I see no basis for its inclusion in the encyclopedia. The additional fact that the subject of the article actually would have the egotistical arrogance to create an article about himself [4] sets a very bad precedent. Dr. Dan (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with creating an article about yourself, it is not as you claim a sign of egotistical arrogance at all and it is much more common than you think. Off2riorob (talk) 21:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Whether it is a more common practice than I think or not, is unimportant. I find doing so to be distasteful and a bad precedent. My main concern with the article however, is lack of notability. Dr. Dan (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. Who originally created an article is completely irrelevant to the notability of the subject, and any !vote based on that argument should be deprecated. I further become suspicious when a nominator or single editor argues tendentiously against every keep vote, but that, too, is irrelevant as to keep/delete. Where there is reasonable doubt, as there is in this case, the default is properly Keep, because having a non-notable article, provided the information in it is adequately supported by reliable source (which information can be very brief, the article can be a stub), does no harm, whereas deleting it makes article growth much more difficult and wastes or even insults the work of all those who contributed. --Abd (talk) 23:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• What you are trying to label as "tendentious arguing" is in fact the normal process of discussion. Where is the doubt at all that this is not notable? Triplestop x3 00:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• The doubt is in the minds of all those who have !voted Keep, isn't that obvious? I'm wary of those who claim that there is no doubt about a thing being absent when it obviously is present. It is not normal discussion for one participant in an AfD, which is a community process, to respond to most comments on one side with argument. If there is more evidence to be presented, by all means, present it, but there is never evidence for non-notability, so I'd recommend shutting up and let editors present what evidence they have, and discuss only actual evidentiary issues, and let the community and the closer decide what's cogent and what's not. --Abd (talk) 02:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
• For reference, I haven't checked to see if there is a pattern, but it's possible an attempt was made to harass me or others over my !vote. I certainly hope this kind of thing does not continue. --Abd (talk) 02:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC) The editor apologized, so I struck this comment --Abd (talk) 03:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)