Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zdzisław Zakrzewski

Zdzisław Zakrzewski

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Zdzisław Zakrzewski (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Created by SPA, deprodded by IP. Non-notable far right activist (lookup All-Polish Youth - and other orgs here). The article is sourced to obits in far right media. Very little coverage in reliable secondary sources. Full of puffery, this fails NSOLDIER, PROF (gScholar does not show many publications at all), and NPOL, and does not pass GNG.Icewhiz (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2019 (UTC) Icewhiz (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Also - 2 obits are by the same individual (and the third is a donor profile at the organization that employs him). The obits state he is the foster son of Zakrzewski and that his organization received donations from Zakrzewski.Icewhiz (talk) 20:16, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Finance-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 19:30, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:01, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

• Delete as PROMO for a deceased political activist/ propagandist. I suppose the idea is to make his work seem legitimate. My searches do not find sources to support notability. Also per WP:NOTMEMORIAL.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Best, GPL93 (talk) 03:10, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. @GPL93 and E.M.Gregory: I don't think the goal is to promote some obscure (1996) book. I think the main argument for keeping is on the basis of him being the recipient of Order of Polonia Restituta, but the claim was unferenced (not even present in the Polish version of this article; but I did find a ref for it: [1]). PR is the third highest Polish state decoration (second highest for civilians): Orders, decorations, and medals of Poland and imho sufficient grounds for passing WP:ANYBIO#1. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:05, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Even then not sure it passes WP:ANYBIO #1 in terms of state orders and decorations. Only the highest honor, for instance the Presidential Medal of Freedom (civilian) and the Medal of Honor (military) in the US, meet inclusionary standards. Best, GPL93 (talk) 04:19, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

What is your source for saying that? ANYBIO just states "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times.". It doesn't state that only the highest national honor is sufficient, and IMHO the few highest ones should be, for most countries at least. I will note that this is true for military ones per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Notability_guide#People, but civilian world is bigger than military, and we should make allowances for that.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:58, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Polish ribbons (low and mid rank as this one) are handed out in large quantities and are not an indication of notability, coverage, or merit. A donation of a few hundred thousand dollars to Polish causes is sufficient for a decoration. Our subject is described in the obits (written or connected to his foster son) as a donor to Polish causes - this is not a basis for notability.Icewhiz (talk) 05:37, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with your disparaging opinion on "Polish ribbons". I have yet to hear that someone got a Polonia Restituta medal for 'bribing' the government. There are statistics for PR available on pl:Order Odrodzenia Polski, the first 2-3 classes of it are clearly not handed by the bucket. There are about 10-20 people who are awarded PR 2nd class each year, and that seems reasonably limited to me. I'd agree that the 4th and 5th classes, which seem to be hundreds to over thousands of recipients, are less significant, with the 3rd class and 100-200 recipients a year probably being borderline. In any case, this person has received PR 2nd class and IMHO being in a group of 10-20 people a year who receive this honor is sufficient for ANYBIO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:58, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

To be clear - I did not say bribing the government - these are handed out to donors to good social causes (or what is deemed as a good cause) - e.g. in our particular case our subject donated (and in those days - the US dollar went a much longer way in Poland) to charitable causes in post-1989 Poland as well as bringing Polish emigrees from Kazakhstan back to Poland. Per pl:Order Odrodzenia Polski - you are talking about around 50,000 Polonia Restituta awards since 1990, of which around 1,000 are 1s and 2nd class (our subject - 2nd). And we should remember that PR ranks below - Order of the White Eagle (Poland) - which per plwiki - has 234 decorations from 1990. White Eagle might qualify for ANYBIO - but Order of Polonia Restituta definitely not. Icewhiz (talk) 10:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Adding on to what Icewhiz said its pretty consistent across national honor systems that receiving any ribbon or order is not an automatic WP:ANYBIO pass, although many recipients of highest orders already pass WP:GNG or another notability standard. Best, GPL93 (talk) 13:04, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Since there are no specific guidelines, we have to use our editorial judgement on whether an award is sufficient or not. As I explained above, I draw a line at PR 2nd class, with 3rd class being borderline, and 4th and below being not sufficient. And out of curiousity, if you think that White Eagle, the top Polish award/order, just "might" qualify, is there ANY Polish state award you think would suffice for ANYBIO? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I probably wouldn't argue over White Eagle (even though it is far less selective than the Presidential Medal of Freedom in terms of number of awards per year) and for SOLDIER - Virtuti Militari probably above some rank (stats - plwiki - again far less selective than Medal of Honor, a bit similar to Legion of Honour perhaps in selectivity and multiple grades - see MilHist discussion on this). I would also note that for modern recipients (e.g. our subject) - you'd expect them to meet GNG anyway. Icewhiz (talk) 07:45, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

• Keep Seems to fulfill all notability criteria, including being awarded very notable Order of Polonia Restituta.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:25, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Care to expand on which criteria he meets? As the discussion above highlights, receiving the Order of Polonia Restituta is not exactly an automatic notability pass. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:45, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

• Keep. Passes our notability criteria, and yes receiving the Order of Polonia Restituta is an automatic notability pass. - Darwinek (talk) 17:03, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

  Not close to the usual standard in ANYBIO#1 - to put this in perspective - there are approx. 49,000 recipients from 1990-2019. There are an additional 681,949 recipients under PRL in 1944-1990 (see [2]) - that's 730 thousand. Add to that government in exile awards (recognized today, and awarded through 1990 in parallel to PRL) - I'm unsure of numbers - and awards from 1921-1939 - all told - quite possibly exceeding 1 million awardees. Icewhiz (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

  • "Not close to the usual standard in ANYBIO#1". What are the usual standards in ANYBIO#1? I don't see anything about this in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes. I would be very happy if we could add a proper interpretation of ANYBIO#1 to Wikipedia rules, but right now I'll say we clearly have NO CONSENSUS for where to draw the line between sufficient and insufficient awards for notability. So please don't say that this doesn't meet our standards. It doesn't meet yours, but it meets mine. That's a definition of lack of agreement, not of you being right. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:05, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• A national award that has been awarded to 49,000 individuals since 1990 CANNOT be so significant that it automatically confers notability. IT JUST CAN'T.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:58, 20 May 2019 (UTC) (Corrected, my notoriously poor keyboard skills. sigh.) E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:06, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• @E.M.Gregory: - since 1990, not 1900. Icewhiz (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@E.M.Gregory: @Icewhiz: It should be noted that most national honors, such as the Order of the British Empire which is awarded at a lower frequency, are not automatic notability passes. Best, GPL93 (talk) 23:13, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• @E.M.Gregory: You may want to research thing a bit before trusting claims made here. OPR has been established in 1921, not 1990. Since 1990, the 2nd Class (discussed here) has been awarded to 762 individuals; 1st class to 219 (stats from pl wiki article). The number for ~50,000 awards since 1990 is for all classes up to the 5th. As I said above, I think that the 1st and 2nd classes are pretty selective based on the numbers. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:04, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. Note that for the UK we consider the CBE or above to be high enough for automatic notability per ANYBIO. That's about 100 or so people every year who are considered notable enough due to their state honours. Seems a little lower than this one. However, given he was awarded the second highest grade of the order he may well be notable. But we should certainly not consider every recipient of the order, even at the lower levels, notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:04, 21 May 2019 (UTC)