Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 April 8
8 April 2024
Low Pavement, Chesterfield
I do not believe there was a consensus to keep. While there was an initial flurry of keep !votes, I do not believe they adequately addressed the arguments that were made in the discussion and none of the keep votes provided SIGCOV in reliable sources. Additionally, there was a keep that turned into a comment and a merge !vote toward the end of the seven-day period. I believe that this discussion should be relisted. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse overwhelming consensus to keep including overwhelming rejection of the source analysis presented by the lone supporter of deletion. While the single merge vote to a currently non-existent page could be given some consideration, this can be done in a separate merge discussion on its talk page rather than an AFD where there is ZERO prospect of deletion. Frank Anchor 21:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse close. I think sometimes you need to pick your battles. This one had five keep !votes, including some carefully considered ones, and no deletes. There was indeed a late merge !vote and an editor who struck their keep on reflection - but did not switch to anything else. It was within closer's discretion to close this after the week without relisting, and I doubt that DRV will come to any different conclusion. Merge can be proposed outside of AfD, and this one didn't really have much chance of moving to delete. I would suggest accepting the AfD result but considering proposing a merge on the article talk. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough RE picking battles, but I was willing to pick this one given that the bulk of the keep !votes invented a new SNG out of thin air (i.e., having listed buildings on a street makes the street notable) and there was very little analysis from those !voters otherwise. I don't think it's really within closer discretion to accept blatantly wrong arguments, no matter how many people agree with them. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- The discussion is an attempt to gain consensus rather than proving who is right or wrong. "Blatantly wrong arguments" is an opinion. It's somewhat luck of the draw who responds to the discussion. On another day, with a different set of respondents, delete or an AtD may have won out. Rupples (talk) 23:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- By "blatantly wrong", I mean arguments that are obviously not rooted in PAGs. Consensus is based on strength of arguments, not on counting heads, and we have a whole page on arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. For example, if there was one delete and five keeps !votes in a discussion, but all of the keeps said "keep because this must be notable and I like it", the closer would obviously be wrong to say there's a consensus to keep. In my view, inventing a new SNG (e.g., a street is notable if it has buildings on it that may be notable [nobody in the discussion actually proved that they were]) is not a valid argument at AfD and should have been discounted because notability is not inherited. Once those keep !votes are discounted, I don't think there's a particularly strong case to keep here based on the sources added during the discussion. In any event, I respect that my view probably won't align with the ultimate consensus of this DRV. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not every valid argument has to be in the guidelines. We don't have a guideline on notability of streets, so that neither allows nor excludes a consideration of a large cluster of listed buildings on the street. An argument was made that these were an indication of notability, and it was pointed out that the street is most unusual for this. You disagreed, but a considered consensus emerged that this was significant. That happens sometimes, and the closer correctly assessed the consensus. As Rupples says, there is a certain luck of the draw in AfD as to who turns up, and what they think. I have seen articles kept based on grounds I considered extremely spurious, and those articles languish and remain unencyclopaedic. Is this one such? You will think so, and perhaps you are right, but the consensus was against you on this one, and there was no way a closer could have read that any other way. This is what I meant about picking your battles. You will remain convinced you are right, and perhaps you are. But DRV is a high bar, and the question is only whether the closer assessed the consensus correctly. They did. Renomination in the future is an option. Merge is an option. And if you just leave it be, and if you are right and there is a non notable subject on the encyclopaedia, it will not grow lonely for lack of company. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- I was unaware that indicators of notability could be created outside of SNGs; I thought that was precisely why we have SNGs and that's where my hang up is RE this deletion discussion. I think that that practice is a problem in terms of consistency of outcomes and clarity of the rules we all play by, but DRV isn't the place to address that. I'm not a DRV regular, so I defer to the regulars here. If this is the way deletion discussions are currently assessed and closed, then I accept that. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not every valid argument has to be in the guidelines. We don't have a guideline on notability of streets, so that neither allows nor excludes a consideration of a large cluster of listed buildings on the street. An argument was made that these were an indication of notability, and it was pointed out that the street is most unusual for this. You disagreed, but a considered consensus emerged that this was significant. That happens sometimes, and the closer correctly assessed the consensus. As Rupples says, there is a certain luck of the draw in AfD as to who turns up, and what they think. I have seen articles kept based on grounds I considered extremely spurious, and those articles languish and remain unencyclopaedic. Is this one such? You will think so, and perhaps you are right, but the consensus was against you on this one, and there was no way a closer could have read that any other way. This is what I meant about picking your battles. You will remain convinced you are right, and perhaps you are. But DRV is a high bar, and the question is only whether the closer assessed the consensus correctly. They did. Renomination in the future is an option. Merge is an option. And if you just leave it be, and if you are right and there is a non notable subject on the encyclopaedia, it will not grow lonely for lack of company. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- By "blatantly wrong", I mean arguments that are obviously not rooted in PAGs. Consensus is based on strength of arguments, not on counting heads, and we have a whole page on arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. For example, if there was one delete and five keeps !votes in a discussion, but all of the keeps said "keep because this must be notable and I like it", the closer would obviously be wrong to say there's a consensus to keep. In my view, inventing a new SNG (e.g., a street is notable if it has buildings on it that may be notable [nobody in the discussion actually proved that they were]) is not a valid argument at AfD and should have been discounted because notability is not inherited. Once those keep !votes are discounted, I don't think there's a particularly strong case to keep here based on the sources added during the discussion. In any event, I respect that my view probably won't align with the ultimate consensus of this DRV. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- The discussion is an attempt to gain consensus rather than proving who is right or wrong. "Blatantly wrong arguments" is an opinion. It's somewhat luck of the draw who responds to the discussion. On another day, with a different set of respondents, delete or an AtD may have won out. Rupples (talk) 23:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough RE picking battles, but I was willing to pick this one given that the bulk of the keep !votes invented a new SNG out of thin air (i.e., having listed buildings on a street makes the street notable) and there was very little analysis from those !voters otherwise. I don't think it's really within closer discretion to accept blatantly wrong arguments, no matter how many people agree with them. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse the AfD participants were unpersuaded. If a merge discussion on talk page isn't preferred, you can try again per WP:RENOM, but it doesn't strike me as something I think needs that level of effort. Your assessment may vary, of course. Jclemens (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse there's really no other way to close that discussion, with one delete, one merge, five keep, and one neutral vote, and the keep !voters all having access to the argument for deletion. (With the full understanding this isn't AfD part two, and without having any impact on my endorse, I can say I also would have !voted to keep.) SportingFlyer T·C 22:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse close. The only !vote for deletion came from the nominator, who put up a lot of argument but didn't convince any of the keeps to change their opinion, nor realise any later opinions for delete. Five !votes were keep. The !vote for merge was to an article yet to be created, so wasn't at this stage practical, but could potentially be discussed on the article talk. I struck my initial keep !vote based on the source assessment table and possible duplication of content, but later challenged aspects of the source analysis. Further material was added late on and if I'd reacted before the close, I would have reinstated my initial keep. Rupples (talk) 22:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - There was a consensus to keep. A Relist after the nominator provided their source analysis would have been a reasonable action, but was not required. That is, either Keep or Relist would have been good, and there was a consensus, including one Keep after the source analysis. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Could not possibly have been closed any other way. Stifle (talk) 07:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. The comment about creating a new article and merging to it is obviously not something that consensus could have formed around in this AfD, and what AfD outcome is that: 'create article'? There was a consensus to keep.—Alalch E. 08:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (involved). How on earth was there no consensus to keep? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Please withdraw this review. Thanks, voorts (talk/contributions) 12:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Given that this is no longer unanimous endorse, I do not believe withdrawing is appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)- Relist. None of the Keep !votes is based on policy or guidelines. The street doesn't inherit notability from the buildings on it, and being listed in directories does not amount to SIGCOV. The appellant's AfD nomination statement, supported by his thorough source assessment
by Rupples, casts serious doubt on the notability of the street, which was not adequately addressed by the other participants. There was clearly no consensus to delete, but this deserves a relist to give sourcing the attention it deserves. Owen× ☎ 12:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)- The source assessment was conducted by the nom. and not by Rupples. Rupples responded to it to say that Bradley and Bradley2 should be taken together and represented SIGCOV, and thus counted as a single source towards GNG. That is not multiple sources of course, but Appraisal should also have been counted, rather than left as unknown. There was also no analysis of multiple book mentions, for some reason (which might indeed be a reason to relist, but not if the result is going to be clear). It is mentioned extensively in Secret Chesterfield [1], Aspects of Chesterfield [2] and Chesterfield Through Time [3] for instance. That is just an initial search. I expect a street with this much history will find its way into many more works. All due respect to the nom., who I think highly of, but this one was never going to be a delete outcome. It is clearly a historic street and the site of a medieval market. On that: Chesterfield Market is a stub, and sits on this street. This could be merged into this page, and perhaps the title adjusted too, in a similar way to how Croydon's historic Surrey Street Market is handled. This can be done outside of a deletion discussion. (ETA: But, unlike Surrey Street Market, Chesterfield's market is adjacent to the street rather than on it - so it is perhaps not quite comparable - still something that could be discussed outside AfD). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing out my mistake, Sirfurboy! I fixed my comment above accordingly. Your evaluation of the book mentions would have been very helpful at the AfD, but this isn't an AfD. We're here to assess the closing of that AfD, not the notability of the article's subject. You said,
this one was never going to be a delete outcome
. I agree, but my participation in AfDs and DRVs isn't based on what I expect the outcome to be, but what I see as the correct application of our P&G, and the correct reading of P&G-based participants. I'm not bothered being in the minority, or even the sole outlier. The Low Pavement, Chesterfield may very well meet our notability standards, but that conclusion was not reflected in the AfD at the time of closing. A review of the book sources you presented is better suited for a relisted AfD than for a DRV. Owen× ☎ 14:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing out my mistake, Sirfurboy! I fixed my comment above accordingly. Your evaluation of the book mentions would have been very helpful at the AfD, but this isn't an AfD. We're here to assess the closing of that AfD, not the notability of the article's subject. You said,
- The source assessment was conducted by the nom. and not by Rupples. Rupples responded to it to say that Bradley and Bradley2 should be taken together and represented SIGCOV, and thus counted as a single source towards GNG. That is not multiple sources of course, but Appraisal should also have been counted, rather than left as unknown. There was also no analysis of multiple book mentions, for some reason (which might indeed be a reason to relist, but not if the result is going to be clear). It is mentioned extensively in Secret Chesterfield [1], Aspects of Chesterfield [2] and Chesterfield Through Time [3] for instance. That is just an initial search. I expect a street with this much history will find its way into many more works. All due respect to the nom., who I think highly of, but this one was never going to be a delete outcome. It is clearly a historic street and the site of a medieval market. On that: Chesterfield Market is a stub, and sits on this street. This could be merged into this page, and perhaps the title adjusted too, in a similar way to how Croydon's historic Surrey Street Market is handled. This can be done outside of a deletion discussion. (ETA: But, unlike Surrey Street Market, Chesterfield's market is adjacent to the street rather than on it - so it is perhaps not quite comparable - still something that could be discussed outside AfD). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse I think here a statement from the closer exlaining their assessment would have been useful - especially given that, while not explicitly defined as such, there is effectively a debate as to whether the justification for keep is a form of WP:SYNTH. That said, this was not the only justification for keep (eg Warofdreams' statement on improvement to the article was unrebutted); there's no reading of the discussion that will produce delete. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 00:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Sports broadcasting contracts in Israel
Hello, I write to request restoration of the page (an overturn), or at least relisting, because the process used, when looked at in conjunction with a broader AfD discussion occurring at the same time was confusing and misleading. When I first saw the deletion discussion for [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Israel], there was a note from the initiator of the deletion request that, having been advised by others that it was better, they wanted to withdraw the Israel Sports Broadcasting Contracts page deletion request to consolidate it with the deletion request for dozens of other sports broadcasting pages at [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Serbia]. This is consistent with the with the Articles for Deletion guideline that "If a number of similar articles are to be nominated, it is best to make this a group nomination so that they can be considered collectively." And so, I put my keep comment in the Serbia discussion, and I limited my comment to generic points relevant to the broader category of sports broadcasting contracts. Some users agreed with my comment, and at least one did not. In any case, following the broader deletion discussion, which resulted in a procedural keep, I came back to the Israel sports broadcasting page, only to learn that it had been deleted the same day as the broader procedural keep. I understand the closer's point that a Procedural Keep on the overall category and a Close on the specific article are not inherently inconsistent. However, those decisions still should not be made at the same time. An implicit corrilary to the AfD guideline quoted above is that the individual similar article nominatations should be stopped, or at least paused, while the group nomination is handled. Indeed, the decision to maintain dozens of similar sports broadcasting contract pages is relevant to the evaluation of each individual page. There wasn't time, however, to take the broader decision into account on the Israel indivdual country page AfD. If dozens of other similar country-based broadcasting contract pages are viewed by many Wikipedians as notable, it is not clear what makes the Israel broadcasting contract page not worthy of Wikipedia. I do not want this deletion decision becoming another entry in the recent research report on [Bias Against Israel on Wikipedia].
Perhaps most simply, for a number of days, including the day when I came across the [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Israel] page, the AfD withdrawl request led users like me to think it best to go elsewhere (to the broader discussion under the [Serbia page]) with comments, and also not make comments specific to the Israel page. For the 7-day minimum for AfD discussions rule to have meaning, there should be none of those 7 days when it would appear to the average reader that the AfD discussion will in fact occur elsewhere.
In any case, having overlapping deletion discussions (one to a broad category of changes, and another for a specific page) is very confusing and is not a process designed to achieve a fair outcome.
To summarize, the page should be restored (an overturn) and given time to be improved, or at least this is an appropriate time to use the relist procedures.
Thank you for your consideration. Coining (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Everything was done correctly and there are no procedural issues. There was a consensus to delete.—Alalch E. 22:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse I don't think this was a correct outcome, and that this could have been saved with sourcing, but the consensus was completely clear. SportingFlyer T·C 22:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Just so I understand -- you don't think this was the correct outcome, and I've given a reason why the "consensus" was artificial, but nonetheless you endorse preserving the outcome of the deletion discussion? Coining (talk) 22:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. There was crystal clear consensus to delete, and the bundled AfD you mentioned was kept not because these are worth keeping as a whole, but because the group nomination was inappropriate. As for being the correct outcome, I would have gone into this AfD looking to make a keep argument based on whether or not I could find sources to support the article as I don't think WP:NOTTVGUIDE applies, but sources would still be needed, and in any case that is not what is being reviewed here - this is not AfD part two. SportingFlyer T·C 23:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Just so I understand -- you don't think this was the correct outcome, and I've given a reason why the "consensus" was artificial, but nonetheless you endorse preserving the outcome of the deletion discussion? Coining (talk) 22:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as the proper reading of the sense of the community.
- I respectfully disagree with the appellant's statement that the consensus was artificial, or that the overlapping deletion discussions were confusing. What was confusing was the blanket deletion discussion, and it was closed as a train wreck (and I agree with that closure). In other words, the deletion should be decided by individual deletion discussions, so this deletion discussion, standing alone, was the train around the train wreck.
- The closer could have either closed as Delete or relisted, but the Delete closure was the better action, because there were multiple policy-based Delete arguments.
- SportingFlyer says that there could have been better sources. I do not have an opinion on whether that is correct, but the appellant is free to submit a draft for review having better sources.
- If User:SportingFlyer is saying that sometimes an editor has to accept a consensus with which they disagree, then I agree that is the proper collaborative attitude.
- There is no need for a relist, and an overturn would be wrong. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)