Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

Clarification on the use of the word "claimed"

Although this refers to a specific article, Józef Kowalski, it may apply to (many) others. The contention here is that the use of "claimed to be" implies the "possibility of falsehood", the counterargument being that use of "thought to be" implies a level of surety which is not backed up by any WP:RS. I would have thought that, in general, "though to be" would be appropriate where there is no proof but there is no suggestion of falsity (in any RS), but "claimed to be" would be appropriate where there is any suggestion (in any RS) that there is a possibility, however slight, that the claim is untrue or cannot be proved to be true. Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The contention isn't here; it's here. There is long-standing consensus that "claim" is a word that should usually be avoided. The MoS is, of course, descriptive and not prescriptive, but you've provided no reason why there's an egregious need to use "claimed" in this article. You (along with your tag-team partner) simply feel that the word is fine. You should take that argument to WT:MOS. Also, you know goddamn well that I have no problem changing "thought to be". By all means, come up with something better. Just not a loaded word like "claimed". Joefromrandb (talk) 05:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I would also like to add that no qualifier should be necessary at all, but we have a clique of editors who feel that they OWN all articles about centenarians. The long-and-short of it is Kowalski is 113 years old, full stop. With any biography, we simply need a source that meets WP:RS to verify the DOB. With centenarians, enter the longevity-article lot, who feel that WP:RS doesn't apply to them (no wonder they think "claim" is fine), and that their people have to "verify" the subject's DOB. Kowalski, in all likelihood, will never be "verified" by the GRG. The documentation they require isn't going to suddenly appear for a man who was born in a small village in a country that no longer exists 113 years ago. It's a shame that this lot have hijacked longevity-related articles. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Addition of "Note for administrators"

Just placed this:

Administrators, please see Administrator instructions for placing biography of living persons sanctions on editors in violation of policy. These were imposed per Special enforcement on biographies of living persons.

This is linked from WP:BLPN page, but not here. I'm sure a lot of Admins come here regularly to review policy when deciding what to do about BLP Noticeboard complaints. They need frequent reminders there even are such instructions and that BLP sanctions are not actively discouraged, and perhaps the opposite.

As I've said elsewhere a few times, I've spent 1/4 of my time on Wikipedia dealing with attacks on BLPs by editors who hate the subject. I've been to BLPN many times. I've just unwatched almost all my BLPs cause I have other things to do with my life.

But I do believe that Wikipedia eventually could face a class action lawsuit charging Wikipedia Foundation malfeasance if some creepy-assed lawyers ever decided to put one together with 30 or 40 aggrieved subjects of bios. All they have to do is search throughout the BLP policy, BLPN, ANI and other relevant pages and they could do a real big case based on copious written evidence. (As a DC legal secretary for 15 odd years, I've seen such suits on far less grounds.) So let's try to do what we can to not encourage the greedy "diff chasers"... User:Carolmooredc 16:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Help watch a page?

Hi! I just wanted a few extra eyes watching a page currently up for AfD. There's little reason to think that this will pass AfD at all, but until that point comes we have to worry about this violating several parts of WP:BLP. The page in question is Daniel Morgan Perry and what essentially is going on is this: a man claiming to be Daniel Perry was on board a flight and had what appears to be a mental breakdown. He caused a disturbance by shouting out various things such as claiming he had info on (or knew) Snowden, that his wife was a Chinese spy, that someone had shot darts into him on the plane and poisoned him... things of that nature. He is a FSO, but (assuming he's Perry) one who seems to have had a documented history of severe mental illness. There was a brief spate of articles about him, all of which were of the "it's a slow news day, so here's a crazy guy on a plane" variety. Media interest dropped off pretty quickly.

Now what the issue here is that another user had edited the page to where I feel that it came across more like a conspiracy-esque website, complete with phrases that are just loaded with various implications. (It also didn't help that they tried to use the Daily Mail as a reliable source.) For example, there's the statement "Perry's current whereabouts are unknown", which given the original state of the article, gives off the suggestion of something sinister. (Original version can be seen here.) You kind of see where I'm going with this. I'm not asking anyone to vote on the AfD, just to keep an eye on the page. There's been an edit war between the original editor (who has been blocked for a short period of time) and a few others (myself included), trying to keep it from being reverted back to the original state. I see that there is now an IP reverting, so I would like a few more people to watch the page to ensure that it doesn't go back to its original state. I'm not against things being added necessarily, but I do think that they need to be based on reliable sources and written in a neutral and encyclopedic manner. If anyone wants to try to explain why the original state of the article wasn't kosher to the original editor, please feel free. I don't want anyone to gang up on him, just affirm that the issues I'd brought up with the article isn't just one editor's viewpoint. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 04:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Source of policy

I would like to know source of this policy. Why court verdict is not asecondary reliable source? Some 'scholar' may do analysis of case in 'academic book'. But court judge(s) also do analysis of case to far more magnitude and publish book (verdict) citing all sources of case just like academic scholar do in his/her book. So why court judgements are primary source (original research) and academic books are secondary source? neo (talk) 21:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Some parts of a court judgment might well be secondary sources. Others, such as the original announcement of the verdict, are definitely primary. (See WP:USEPRIMARY: documents don't have to be completely one or the other.)

We have had extensive problems in the past with misuse of these documents (e.g., filling articles with endless trivia), so we are now quite strict about them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources

A man about whom Wikipedia has a biographical article happens to have sent me a (postal) letter about a year before he died. In the letter, he recounts his tenth birthday and mentions its date. Therefore, I happen to know—and to possess documentary evidence of—the date on which the man was born. As it happens, the biographical article though unsourced has the date right; but the only reliable source that exists of the date, as far as I know, is the private letter I have.

It seems to me that it would stretch credulity to suggest that the letter constituted unreliable evidence of the date, especially in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. However, the letter does not appear to meet Wikipedia's stated standard in the matter. I am curious: how would one properly go about using the letter in question as a Wikipedia source?

One could answer: show your letter to an historian and let him cite it in a peer-reviewed journal! This would be fine in theory, but of course is unrealistic. Like the subjects of many of Wikipedia's biographical articles, the man in question is significant enough for a Wikipedia article but hardly important enough for historical research. One could also answer that my letter fell afoul of Wikipedia's original-research policy, but the letter the man has sent me is not research; it's just a letter—and is not unlikely the best evidence in the question that exists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbtkorg (talk • contribs) 22:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Second question. The obituary in the man's hometown newspaper mentions the date of death but not of birth. Suppose that it did mention the date of birth, however. It seems less likely that the obituary were accurate than the letter in question, written in the man's own hand. However, Wikipedia would seem to allow the obituary but not the letter as a source. Who can untangle this policy riddle? Tbtkorg (talk) 22:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I personally know one person on whom article exist. I know info in 'reliable sources' is wrong. But I don't remove it or add my own info. I am primary source. We can't do anything about such situation. neo (talk) 22:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

To clarify: does it matter that I am not the source at all, but that the unpublished letter I have is the source? Would it matter if I scanned and uploaded the letter? (I do not actually mean to do any of this in the present instance. I am just curious about the policy. The present instance lets me ask what I think is an interesting question about it.) Tbtkorg (talk) 22:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Right now that letter is primary soure. If some reporter verify that letter and include that date of birth in some article then it will be secondary source. If multiple reporters publish it, then no problem at all. You really can't upload scanned image on wikipedia to prove his date of birth. No one will accept it. neo (talk) 22:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong with using a primary source to note his birthdate. Upload it to wikisource and cite it. If someone comes along later and says "Noted professor Lupus P. Mcgillypuddy recently published an expose that demonstrated that X falsified his birthdate on multiple occasions and detailed searches of primary records illustrate that his real birthdate was Z", then, your cite will be overturned. But nothing prevents us from using primary sources for birthdates. Another question is, is it important? I actually tend to shy away from birthdates (vs birth-years) in small bios, as it seems the identity-thievery-implications and others outweigh the encyclopedic value.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:15, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I see. Good points. You are probably right about the identity thievery. Yes, it is a small bio: the man in question is known to thousands, not to hundreds of thousands or to millions. The man obviously did not mind relating his birth date to people he knew or to people who knew of his work, but he did not paint the date in foot-tall letters on the side of his house as far as I know. This suggests that I should probably file the private letter for 100 years. Then, should my heirs discover the letter and deem it to have historical significance, they could upload it to Wikisource at that time! At any rate, thank you both for the advice. Tbtkorg (talk) 02:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: Letters are currently copyright to the author of the letter -- one can not simply upload copyright material to Wikimedia. Collect (talk) 12:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Birth certificates

We all know that WP:BLPPRIMARY bans use of "public records that include personal details, such as date of birth," and anyone who's hung around the noticeboards for very long knows that people frequently want to cite birth certificates.

Would anyone mind actually adding "such as a birth certificate" to this section? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I would agree - this has been sitting at the article for years after a long talk...however it can easily be replaced.Moxy (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

List of notables in Rape article?

Should we include a list of notable persons who have experienced or survived rape? I know it's an unpleasant subject, but we have list articles like List of suicides, on which I've worked extensively. I think the article should have a list, but it should be restricted to the following criteria:

• Every single name listed there must be supported by a citation of a reliable source, whether the person is living or not. No uncited entries, and no fact tags. No citation, no inclusion, period.
• The notable in question must be someone who freely chose not to remain anonymous, and to speak out about the assault, and not mere hearsay. People who have been "outed" as rape survivors, even by reliable sources, should not be included, if the notable in question has not publicly confirmed the event. There are a number of notable people who have done this.
• The purpose of the list should be to inform, and should not be motivated by sensationalistic or other unsavory motives. I would keep the article on my Watchlist, as I have for some time, just like the suicides article.

I previously brought up this question on that article's talk page, and was told to bring it here. Nightscream (talk) 03:40, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• As I previously stated, we should create a separate article listing rape victims who are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles already and which have publicly stated they were raped, such as Fionna Apple. There is no reason to list any of them inside the rape article itself though. Dream Focus 08:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I have serious concerns about both proposals - and indeed Dreamfocus immediately points up one of them by naming somebody in his comment above who is not so identified in her article, so far as I can see. The proposal is not even for a list of people notable for having been raped, problematic enough, but a list of everyone with an article who has been raped and for which there is a reliable source. In my view, only rarely would it be appropriate to mention rape in a biography article, any more than other aspects of a subject's sexual activity, especially if they were a single encounter. It is not simply a matter of whether the subject has 'admitted' to it, and in some legal jurisdictions it is even necessary for them to be publicly identified for a prosecution to be brought. Even where it does get mentioned in the article, there is a further question whether those people should be singled out in a further list. Add to this that some countries actually prohibit the identification of rape victims. US editors will scream Constitutional Rights at this point - they need to understand that other societies place a much higher value on the rights of victims. --AJHingston (talk) 09:08, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
• I think the better approach is not a "list", but a paragraph that provides a WP:SUMMARY of the anti-rape movement and describes the role of some of the most prominent self-identified victims in it and the role of publicly identifying as a rape victim. That will provide more encyclopedic information and context than the usual laundry list of celebrities whose names are recognizable to the editors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
• oppose, the solution of WhatamIdoing seems reasonable however. Note that we do have a category, Category:Victims of Rape, which was put up for deletion, but the result was no consensus. I !voted to delete, but others wanted it kept, and they created List_of_rape_victims_from_history_and_mythology as a sort of "historical" list (hoping to avoid BLP issues I suppose). My feeling is, in terms of the category, for the vast majority of people, having been raped is not "defining". It is obviously an important thing to them, but it is not necessarily the same for the broader public; it doesn't "define" them in the eyes of reliable sources, would not be placed in the lede, and I don't think we necessarily need to enshrine their having been victims of such a crime in a separate list, even if a source could be found defending it. The only exceptions would be people whose main source of notability stems from having been an unfortunate victim, and then as a result of them having been public about it and about taking action against rape - for example, Samira_Bellil, who came to light as a result of her publication of a book detailing having been raped multiple times, and then founding organizations that fought against rape. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. I agree with WhatamIdoing - a list is of little relevence on its own, and if particular cases need to be discussed at all, it should be done in the article body. And it goes without saying that any living rape victims need to have publicly self-identified. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose It has potential to create major BLP issue. Almost all the time when rape victim give interview, it is to catch culprit or tell grievances to interviewer in moments of despair. It should not be interpreted as for publicity or becoming 'notable' rape victim. If list is created, some users may interpret sources in their own ways to insert name. And that should not happen. neo (talk) 16:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)