Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome

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Proposed move of Ab urbe condita (Livy) to History of Rome (Livy)

I've posted a new page move discussion at Talk:Ab urbe condita (Livy) following new input from another editor. I tried to initiate a similar discussion a few years ago, but it didn't go anywhere. It's been a while since the last full discussion. Maybe we can achieve a new consensus. P Aculeius (talk) 19:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Livius.org

Re WP:SELFPUB. Is Livius.org self-published? Ifly6 (talk) 01:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but it looks vaguely like it might be an endeavour similar to Wikipedia. I wouldn't cite it, and if I ran across a cite to it, I'd look for a replacement. I suspect it's as accurate as its authors can make it, but it doesn't look like a scholarly source, and our readers shouldn't have to rely on its authority. P Aculeius (talk) 02:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's self published. See Jona Lendering, and the article talk page. The same question was raised here (possibly at G&R talk) several years back and IIRC, it generated a little heat. Lendering has his own convictions and isn't quite mainstream but has supporters out there; I'd steer clear. A quick PS for any interested parties: some content on the popular Ancient History Encyclopedia site is drawn from Livius.org Haploidavey (talk) 06:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may be thinking of the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 83#Jona Lendering, which seems to have concluded that Lendering is an expert and the site is usable within the constraints of WP:SPS (though that was back in 2010, when Wikipedia was less rigorous about sourcing!) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 08:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The link there to Lendering's explanation for not citing modern sources no longer works; it's archived here. Given how much modern work has been done on assessing the scanty scattered evidence on, say, helots (work which I'm not qualified to assess), I find it hard to see his article Helot as a reliable source when it does not itself refer to any sources, ancient or modern. His practice may have changed a little; Ephor mentions one modern work at the end, while citing ancient sources for particular statements. NebY (talk) 18:25, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried not to state my own opinion on the site but I think it should not be used as a reliable source except in extremis since it is self-published. And, given the extent of Lendering's beating on certain other matters – his BMCR review of a book on Persia was sufficiently bad to be team-demolished – we should be wary of citations to him generally. Ifly6 (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"As could be expected, the use of information from the web leads to errors." Lendering himself, in that review, complaining about the author's use of Livius.org as a source.[1] NebY (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I see no real reason to use Livius.org over some actual research, there is almost certainly better sources avalable for pretty much anything.★Trekker (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@StarTrekker, NebY, Caeciliusinhorto, Haploidavey, and LlywelynII: If that is the consensus on this matter should we remove citations or external links to Livius.org in articles, or drafts thereof, such as Founding of Rome and User:Ifly6/Varronian chronology? There is also the matter of the translation of Livy's Periochae which has been cited (eg Social War (91–87 BC)) to Livius.org's version since there does not appear to be a complete English version thereof elsewhere. Ifly6 (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to refer to Livius.org in a little over 850 articles. I fear a major purge would eventually suffer WP:LOCALCONSENSUS complaints unless there was prior consensus at WP:RSN. NebY (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's a major enough issue to systematically seek out and remove them, but if you come across them naturally it's probably worth looking to see if a better source is available. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a major purge would likely be too much. As content is rewritten, however, it feels as though the general feeling of people here is that Livius.org should not be used – given other reliable sources at all exist – going forward. Ifly6 (talk) 20:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, as one of the main authors of the pages noted in my comment above, should I remove them myself? Ifly6 (talk) 20:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good sensible thoughts and answers above; we don't need to frighten the horses with a purge, but if an editor has reasons for removal of a particular source, they should remove it, with an explanatory edit summary, and (hopefully) replace it with a better source that passes muster. I've done that in the past with otherwise reliable sources that have published blatant errors or omissions due to a lack of specialist knowledge. PS: the reliable sources noticeboard has the facility for commentary on named sources, not just an all or nothing yes/no. Haploidavey (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coming to this late, but in case it's any help: on la:wiki I'm happy enough to cite livius.org under "external links", as offering an informed viewpoint (I think en:wiki makes less use of an "external links" section), but I wouldn't use livius.org as a source or cite it in footnotes. To judge by NebY's anecdote above, Lendering himself would agree. Good reasons have been given by others here, that it's self-published, not usually cited by scholars, and rarely cites its own secondary sources. So on en:wiki I'd say yes, replace citations of livius.org with better sources. Andrew Dalby 09:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good article reassessment for Roman Empire

Roman Empire has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 14:23, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Roman mob

currently links to nothing despite being an important presence in dozens of articles. In the absence of a clearly distinct body to create a dedicated article about, I strongly recommend someone bulking up our article on mob rule—which currently treats the idea as coined by Plutarch but having first arisen in 17th century Britain before finding its sole modern expression in the 19th-century US treatment of blacks and Mormons—with a new section on Roman rhetoric, reality, and subsequent historical influence. Roman mob could then redirect to that section for solid further treatment, along with an existing explanation of how (no) it's not the same thing as one in Sicily and Naples. Bonus points for even toss-off mention of the Blues and Greens in Constantinople. — LlywelynII 14:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the link for the racing factions for now, which might well be split off and expanded. Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, there's at least that for them. I meant including a mention of them in an expanded Roman section for the mob rule article, if that happened. — LlywelynII 17:28, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An article on Popular politics in the Roman republic may be worthwhile especially given Millar's work on the topic, though I suppose that may also somewhat overlap with the historiography related to optimates and populares and also may exclude popular politics in non-republican times (of which I know little). Ifly6 (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are already several articles on the political factions. That's distinct from the Roman mob (what I was talking about) in modern eyes, even if you could argue that Sulla wouldn't distinguish between the two. Literally, some treatment somewhere that Roman mob could link to through the empire, not just the late Republican Populares party. — LlywelynII 17:28, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The history section of mob rule is completely pathetic; this is the sort of subject that WP is still terrible at. It doesn't even mention Paris in the text. Johnbod (talk) 17:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no late Republican Populares party. Regardless, Popular politics in ancient Rome may be better for a wider scope. (Also "ancient" to avoid confusion with popular politics in modern Rome and its environs.) I do not know too much about things outside the republican period. But within the republican period, the subject would also need to be handled with care and disciplined by modern research, largely to avoid wrong, reductive, and outdated Mommsenian and pseudo-Marxist narratives. Ifly6 (talk) 21:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Roman Republican xxxx

Is it common to refer to figures of the Roman Republic as Roman Republican consuls, generals or whatever? It seems odd to me and I'm wondering whether to propose renaming of recently created categories such as Category:Roman Republican generals, Category:Roman Republican soldiers and Category:Roman Republican rebels to match the existing Category:Senators of the Roman Republic‎, but maybe I'm reading the wrong sources. We do seem to have had eg Category:Roman Republican praetors and Category:Roman Republican consuls for a long time. NebY (talk) 17:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is that the creators, or whoever started the trend, just preferred "Roman Republican foo" to the longer "foo of the Roman Republic", perhaps because it's shorter, or because it leads with "Roman" rather than "foo", or because they were split from previous "Roman foo", which would have sounded right, but not been adequate for eras. I don't care for it either, but "foo of the Roman Republic" might have a disadvantage for searching. That said, redirects could probably be used to fix that. Might be something this WikiProject wants to do consistently across categories. P Aculeius (talk) 18:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really care too much about the whole categories project but it does seem as if we should pick one or other other. And if we have to pick, I would pick big endian such that we would get Roman republican generals rather than some kind of mixed order Generals of the Roman republic. Ifly6 (talk) 21:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both, especially for the points about searching. I never imagined we could have redirected categories, but then again I was happier ignoring category changes on my watchlist anyway; I'll settle for still feeling slightly queasy about describing Julius Caesar as a Roman Republican anything. NebY (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]