Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles

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March 2006: Setting up; Use of icon in article space

Recording sweeps

Updating it after you've done a sweep would be quite easy, just putting your date-stamped signature over any previous recorded mark. Hopefully this will make coordination a bit easier. Should it be put at the talk page for WP:GA? Or is this the best place for it?

I have linked the current location for the sweeping chart on the new open tasks template for the project. TheGrappler 02:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, maybe it should have a subpage on the WikiProject, a bit like /General? TheGrappler 16:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I moved the list here Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/sweep list so it doesn't take space here on the wikiproject talk page. It is also on the main wikiproject page in the tools section. Tarret 20:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:WGA

I thought it would be an idea to set up a shortcut to the WikiProject - WP:WGA was unclaimed, and it seems pretty unambiguous. TheGrappler 16:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

"Fail"

I think the use of the word "fail" throughout Wikipedia:Good articles/Nominations and in the template names is a bit strong. It may imply to the casual Wikipedia reader that the article is actually bad ("this article was nominated as a good article but failed" would not be much of a leap to "this is a bad article" in many minds I'm sure). I'd suggest some softer language be used. As I see it, this process is supposed to be a "win win" situation (editors either see their article "promoted" or get some valuable feedback; there should be no such thing as "fail"). --kingboyk 18:11, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, "fail" might not be the best of wording... at the very least, we should continue to make sure that casual readers don't see too much unwarranted negative language. For example, {{FailedGA}} alreasy uses neutral language; I think the fact that it technically has "fail" in its name isn't really so much of a problem. Melchoir 02:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I reviewed 3 articles and failed them, using "PASS/FAIL" for each section mentioned in WP:WIAGA. Maybe I should have used YES/NO/ALMOST...? Bugmuncher 13:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

I have listed as one of the aims of the project, improving articles to good status. I believe this is actually one of the things this project does - the aim of constructive comments in reviews of articles that don't currently meet the criteria is precisely to bring them up to the criteria! Also, I know that in borderline cases, I have actually helped out (copyedits, providing images or sorting out image copyright status), and I am sure others are the same. I couldn't have done that without the help of WP:GA.TheGrappler 22:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Project Page

I added a box to the wikiproject page to add a bit more color. It was adapted from the Wikiproject Tropical Cyclones. I hope it makes the wikiproject stand out more. Tarret 19:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Great job! --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 19:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to say I don't think this is a good idea. Tastes vary, and I may be the only one but to me it does not look visually appealing at all. I prefer to just stick with the standard way pages look. Worldtraveller 21:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with this. The page doesn't look too bad, but I feel its structure is confusing, and it makes it more difficult to edit.  -- Run!  22:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Daughter project Unreferenced GA

Following suggestion, I've set up a daughter project that will be concerned specifically with articles that are well-written and illustrated, but lack references. I feel that these are a particular quality concern for Wikipedia, and should be given proper attention. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 22:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Passing and Failing

I only began to review articles last night, and I've done three of them. What I'm noticing so far is that it's a lot easier to fail an article than it is to pass one. Is this normal? I don't want to be a person that says "no" all the time, but of the three I reviewed, only one appeared to be even close to GA criteria... and none of them had leads that described the article. Bugmuncher 13:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I think this is good. I probably pass about a third of the articles I review, I'd guess. GA standards are only as high as those of the most lenient reviewer, and the comments you leave when you fail an article are probably the most useful part of the process, so don't be afraid to fail nominations! Obvious things like inadequate leads, lack of references, untagged images should definitely be picked on. Keep up the good work! Worldtraveller 14:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Gan-fail

Template:Gan-fail has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. TheJC ^Talk_{Contributions} 22:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My 2 cents.

Firstly, I think you should read my ideas at Wikipedia_talk:Good_articles/Nominations#Good_Article_Drive_and_other_suggestions. Please respond there.

Secondly, I have sent two articles - Yahoo! and NeoPets to Wikipedia:Peer review. I am sure that if the peer review is successful, these articles can definitely become Good Articles. Please go to Peer review and give your comments regarding these articles. If you have sufficient expertise on the subject of the articles, we could collaborate to improve these articles into Good Articles.

Lastly, it looks like many people confuse the Good Articles WikiProject with the Good Articles proccess. We should make the distinction clear.

Just my 2 cents.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 03:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

??? What's the Point ???

I mean really, why do we have the good articles??? Personally I think its a great idea but is there any point when half the users don't even know about good articles. It seems myself and a few others have lost the battle for a sign in the top right hand corner of articles and it seems there will never be a link on the main page or the navigation bar so why do we bother??? Can somebody please explain the point of good articles (make it a good explanation or the rant will continue!!!).--Childzy 18:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a couple:

• It is the largest article assessment programme currently operating on Wikipedia. Article assessment is vital.
• It encourages higher standards across many more articles than are able to pass through the FA process. By the end of this year, at the rate it's going, there should be about twice as many GAs as FAs.
• The more articles that meet the GA criteria, the more people will come to know about GA and will strive to make their articles meet the criteria.
• It provides great assistance to people compiling CD and other releases of Wikipedia material.

GA is still a very young process but it's becoming more and more established, and more and more useful as well, and I'd like to thanks the many people who are doing great work reviewing articles and making the process run efficiently. Worldtraveller 19:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks you've proved my hidden point Good articles are vital to wikipedia so why cant we have our link in the navagation bar or a sign on the articles--Childzy ^{(Talk|Clarets)} 19:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it has something to do with some, well, silly argument about this horrible, horrible thing called "metadata" which, from the way its detractors seem to make it sound, makes it come out to almost be like little viruses which destroy anyone's reading experience for any article it touches, though im not exactly certain yet how this is possible. I don't think it has much to do with GA itself. Homestarmy 20:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Homestarmy's right - there's no sign just because it's metadata, and that's to be avoided. The FA star shouldn't exist either. I'm tempted to delete it - Raul654 deleted the GA star that previously existed even though a TFD discussion hadn't endorsed it, because he said it was against policy - he could equally delete the FA star but hasn't done.

Has anyone asked for a link in the navigation bar? GA is still young, as I say, and it has its critics (at least one of whom has a completely irrational hatred of it and accuses any link to it of being 'spam'), so personally I don't mind waiting for that - say once we have 2,000 GAs we could lobby for it. Worldtraveller 20:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok fair enough say when we get a few more we can ask.--Childzy ^{(Talk|Clarets)} 20:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

New proposal

Featured Articles and Good Articles are both Wikipedia processes to recognize quality articles. I created a proposal for greater co-ordination and integration between the two processes, so that both processes will be more successful in their aim of recognizing quality articles. Please read and participate in the discussion on the village pump. Thanks. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 13:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sweeps

I've been doing a bit of reviewing lately and kind of like it. So I signed on to the project. I'd like to know what all goes into a sweep. Does it include looking for the GA cat on the main page or on the article page? If so, do I record that, too? --CTSWyneken^(talk) 14:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Quality standards question

While looking at articles that have failed GA nominations, I noticed that many of the articles failed due to the fact that there were no citations (criteria 2). I then looked at some articles that passed and noticed some did not cite any sources. When I looked at the article history, I found at least 3 articles did not go through the nomination procedure. Someone came by and just slapped on the GA template on the talk page. The editors of the article did not even comment. I delisted the 3 articles leaving a message in each talk page to add citations and resubmit through the nomination procedure. I pause now because I am wondering if this is the proper thing to do. Were these articles given GA status under different criteria in the past? --RelHistBuff 11:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I just made a quick check through one category of GA articles (which includes the 3 I noted above). I found at least 7 more articles that do not satisfy the standards and did not go through nomination. That's a total of 10 out of 50 articles in the category or 20%! One article was given GA status anonymously (IP address only), two were given GA by article contributors, and one even caused some surprise among the article editors when they saw the GA template (they noted that the article wasn't really good enough yet)! This is a bit worrisome. The number of GAs may be increasing, but if 20% never went through the assessment process, then that devalues the status of GAs. Is there any admin process being done to clean this up? --RelHistBuff 12:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there's a problem, just yesterday I came across a clearly failing article myself that was put on the list, it's on the disputes page now though because somehow someone can't tell that it isn't NPOV :/. What happened was, we used to do sweeps through the list every so often and delist stuff that failed, but I don't think anyone's done that in awhile. Patrolling the list from time to time is probably a good idea, and don't worry, you did the right thing to delist if they failed the critera. Homestarmy 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia talk:Good article candidates#Quality standards. Slambo (Speak) 17:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Came across a situation where an article was "nominated" by a listing on GAC, but the nomination template was never placed on the talk page. One of the regular editors was surprised to find a GA-failed template appear suddenly, and would like to remove the template. Is this OK? Gimmetrow 21:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Passenger vehicles in the United States under review

Dear members of WikiProject Good articles,

I would like to draw your attention to this article and the review request that has been placed concerning its promotion to GA. I believe this case might create an important precedent as to the interpretation of the GA criteria, so your participation is vital. Please note that people direclty involved in the editing of the article and the previous discussion on its talk page have been asked not to participate, so the future of this and similar nominations depends solely on your opinions.

Thank you, Bravada, talk - 23:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

That's rather unusual, the disputes page is open to everyone for comment. (Unless, you know, your banned from editing or something) Homestarmy 01:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I just did not want to repeat the same discussion we already had, and couldn't find consensus. The review request was put up to gather external opinions on the subject. What is yours? Bravada, talk - 02:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair Use Rationale essential for GA?

Just want to check if I'm doing this right. My understanding is that images need to be tagged correctly if used in an article that's trying to get GA status. By tagged correctly this means for a Fair Use image, it will need the correct copyright template, the exact website address it was taken from and a full fair use rationale. However I noticed some of the FU images in Lancia Flaminia for example don't have the Fair Use rationale. Have I been too harsh citing one reason for failure as the lack of this? Alexj2002 08:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to make sure - you failed Lancia Kappa. Lancia Flaminia does exhibit the same problems, but this is a GA already and I think it does fulfill the other criteria, so I'd rather work on getting some free pics rather than writing lenghty rationales if that's OK with you. Moreover, I think that if the lack of FA rationales is the only reason to fail a GA, I believe the reviewer can just remove the images and promote the article placing a notice on the talk page, as this is basically exactly what the nominator should do to successfully renominate and it spares some fuss - this is not applicable in the case of the Kappa, just a general thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bravada (talk • contribs)

...wait a moment, this is not my WikiProject! Why do I have it on my watchlist then...? Bravada, talk - 10:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've found that, if the article is worthy in other respects, that leaving a note saying the tags need to be fixed before promotion and putting them on hold to be done will often get them fixed. Now, if it has a bunch of other probs, I fail it and note the path to fixing the article. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 12:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the advice. If the images are the only problem I'll put it on hold and leave a message with the nominator and on the article talk page. Lancia Kappa had a few other problems Bravada, hence why I didn't think it deserved to be a GA yet. Alexj2002 13:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I am perfectly aware of that and neither do I believe it is even remotely worthy of being a GA. Btw, thanks for being so courteous to leave me a note on my talk page :D Regards, Bravada, talk - 19:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Reliable Sources for GA articles

I'm currently having a discussion with some members of the Wikiproject Poker about reliable sources, namely the use of a personal website to serve as the primary source for biographies. The discussion is going on Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources and on the particular article's talk page Talk:Ram Vaswani. I'd be interested in the thoughts of other GA reviewers since one of the poker project members seems to think my concern about reliable sources is "reinventing the wheel". Agne 02:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

A personal website is not a "good" source, (WP:V) so therefore, I would say it would not count for an article being well-referenced. Homestarmy 13:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I do not believe that the reference site in question is a personal website. The Wikipedia definition, for example, indicates that a personal website cannot be used for commercial purposes. As the site in question is used in part for commercial purposes, then I feel the personal website argument is not valid. Furthermore, the website is owned by a company rather than a person. Essexmutant 17:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As Vaswani is one of the owners of the Herndon Mob site, the site qualifies as Wikipedia:Reliable Sources#Self-published sources in articles about themselves. You're right, Agne. Self-published material should always be reported as the POV of the publisher, and not as general fact, until such time as there is independent corroboration of that material. Similarly, references from the New York Daily News would be considered of limited value in an article about Rupert Murdoch. In general, if a self-published source is reliable, then other reliable sources will cite it. Until then, it should be avoided. ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

In light of the changes in WP:WIAGA relating to in-line citations and the on-going GA re-review, I am being bold and going through all the current GA's that do not have in-line citations and dropping this notice. I am not doing a full review of the articles at this time but figure this will serve as a friendly notice of the change. It is my hope that the article's editors will go through and add the neccessary in-line citations (and any other needed improvement) so that when a GA reviewer does come and give full review, the article will be more likely to pass. I ask that my fellow reviewers hold off on doing that review till at least a week has passed from when I drop this notice on the page. I've directed any questions or concerns to this talk page.

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 20:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)