Category talk:Croatian people of the Ottoman Empire

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Former countries: Ottoman Empire

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Military history: Biography

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retitle[edit]

Santasa99 I believe you recently emptied this. I assume this is because this name might be a bit ambiguous - it was a subcategorization of Croats in the service of the Ottoman Empire, while there was a "Croatian military" in existence in parallel, so the adjective "Croatian" could refer to both the people individually and to the military, only one of which actually makes sense. Can you propose a different name instead of just deleting this? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:25, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it goes without saying that the title is rather odd - however, I didn't consider it for re-titling because we have some categories which puts Croats and Ottomans into context - Croatian people of the Ottoman empire, something like that and then some variations. I am not sure that we have sorted "x people in y empire" by vocations?-౪ Santa ౪^99° 15:01, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Although, I didn't realized we have "Croats in the service of the Ottoman Empire", I just removed that one leaving people of the empire.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 15:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Santasa99 I'm not quite sure what you're saying, I see no Category:Croatian people of the Ottoman Empire or Category:Croatian people in service of the Ottoman Empire in existence. Do you prefer we move this to the former or to the latter? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 06:29, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion requests should not be removed by the creator of the category. An admin can decide whether this category should be speedy deleted for being empty. Populating the category with appropriate content will be the best remedy to prevent speedy deletion. Thanks. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 03:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars, please don't lecture people, I literally posted to the talk page at the same time. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 06:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Joy, please, let me check around and see what is usual pattern under Ottoman parent cats, and I'll get back to you.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 09:20, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please, put a deletion on hold, maybe we could just simply re-name the category.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 09:23, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Joy, the norm appears to be Category:XY people of the Ottoman Empire, so let's use Category:Croatian people of the Ottoman Empire?--౪ Santa ౪^99° 09:27, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, let's go with that. Worst case later we can rename it again. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After new findings, alternatives can be: Category:Ottoman military personnel of Croatian descent, Category:Military personnel of the Ottoman Empire of Croatian descent --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure, Joy. First, how many of these people existed to put them in three different subcategories with a same identity context.

"And now something completely different" - I was head scratching, as I do with most of these identity/ethnicity issues, by looking at Ottomans by ethnicity, and I realized that it's more complicated than it appears to be. For instance, we have Serbs and Greeks as "people in the OE", but they are mostly "Christians" and "Serbs" or "Greeks", not persons who took Islam and never considered themselves anything more than persons of certain descent. I think that "Croats" that we have at this point can only be defined as "Ottoman people of Croatian descent". You see what I mean - I am not aware of any bio article on person that we can define (him or her) as a Croat, whether enslaved one, or some merchant who went to live in Istanbul, or some soldier/officer who became professional without changing a religion (Ottomans only differentiated people based on religious persuasion). I am really not sure that we can say that any of these pashas, admirals, whatever, that we have were actually Croats (even through their own eyes) - to say they were, that would be terrible (maybe even little bit embarrassing) anachronism. I would stick with "Ppl of the OE of the Croatian descent" as the only category for now, until we have, say, Ivo XY from Zadar went to work for the Ottomans, or was enslaved after this battle and remained Christian and Croat even though he took some service, whatever.

I apologize, Joy, I don't want to make your life miserable for a 2 minutes let alone 5, tonight, so, I am passing you a torch :-) you decide.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 19:57, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Three? I thought we were discussing just two, a military personnel subcategory or a people category? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:12, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, you moved the Cro. military person. to Croatian people of the OE? If so, we have old People of the Ottoman Empire of Croatian descent‎, and then, if we create sub again for the military person., then we would have three?--౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:28, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Croatian descent‎ + Category:Croatian people of the Ottoman Empire + Category:Ottoman military personnel of Croatian descent /or/ Category:Military personnel of the Ottoman Empire of Croatian descent--౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:44, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The two "people" categories would be redirected to one another. The only question is whether we keep a subcat for soldiers. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't. I think it would be odd one out?--౪ Santa ౪^99° 23:42, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Were these three article the only ones in the category that you removed? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 06:28, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per my Contribution, I removed using HotCat:

01:38, 12 January 2022‎ Sinan Pasha (Ottoman admiral) ‎ removed Category:Croatian military personnel in Ottoman armies
01:21, 12 January 2022 Murat Bey Tardić ‎ removed Category:Croatian military personnel in Ottoman armies
01:19, 12 January 2022 Silahdar Yusuf Pasha ‎ removed Category:Croatian military personnel in Ottoman armies--౪ Santa ౪^99° 09:10, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, then I'll just squash it into the other variant and redirect (this one was actually older, amusingly enough). --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:13, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have to apologize for the mess and thank you for having patience.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 10:41, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]