Talk:Ñ

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Images[edit]

I've taken the following photos to illustrate the letter Ñ. Use them as you see fit.

Chameleon 21:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hotkey[edit]

What is the hotkey to type the ñ on a Windows computer? (CFIF 21:55, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC))

What's a hotkey? — Chameleon 22:06, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think Ctrl-~ followed by n works. Nickptar 22:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It probably depends on your keyboard layout. I just hit ñ. — Chameleon 22:31, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Ctrl-~ thing doesn't work for me (CFIF 23:00, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC))

You can try alt-0241. Or, if you are writing in HTML (which works on Wikipedia) you can type in ñ, ñ or ñ and it'll display as ñ. On Wikipedia, you can just click on the ñ in the special characters box below the edit box. Finally, you can select a keymap that includes the letter (for example, choose the keymap for Spain); I use a customised version of that keymap. — Chameleon 08:48, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hold down alt and hit 164 on the keypad. That's what works for me. (Daniel Hawking (unreg. user) @ 0:12, Aug 14 (UTC))

For uppercase Ñ it's alt + 165

I found that alt + 1701 worked for uppercase Ñ. I'm using a (presumably) Australian keyboard.58.178.113.192 11:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Do your keyboard have the '~' character? Then just press it (possibly holding down the correct CTRL or ALT key) followed by a 'n' or 'N'. On a Swedish keyboard, for instance, the upper key that is to the immediate left of the big enter key gives the ~ character if you press it while holding down the ALT GRAPHICS option key. So press that, release, and then enter a normal 'n' or 'N' and you should see a 'ñ' or 'Ñ' on your screen.

I personally use the ñ key to type the ñ character. 200.127.223.79 (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Huh?[edit]

"Historically, ñ represented two N's, written as an N with a smaller N, the tilde ~, over it. For example, the Spanish word año (year) is derived from Latin ANNVS."

What?
As it says: the tilde originally was a small lowercase n written on top of the other n. So año was originally written anno, which is clearly from the Latin annus. Jordi· 17:15, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I removed the second bit of the sentence before I realized (via a picture of Ñ/ that the tilde looked like another N. It's back, and clarified. --Ihope127 01:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Ñ in American keyboards[edit]

Maybe ñ should be in American keyboards. 35 millions Americans, whose language is Spanish, and those non-hispanics able to speak it would be able to write in both languages (English and Spanish) without nowadays problems.

This is hardly an issue. There are actually keyboards with the Ñ symbol, as you know, and anyone wishing to use it can purchase one. The Spanish and English keyboards are actually the same, the only difference in them is what is printed on the keys. The difference lies in the software, something you can easily change by selecting a different key layout in any popular operating system. SaulPerdomo 01:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Separate letter?[edit]

The article says, "The English and Spanish alphabets classify it as an N with a tilde." Is this really true for Spanish? According to the Spanish Wikipedia, Ñ is a separate letter in the alphabet, and the Real Academia Española seems to agree when alphabetizing the entries in its dictionary.--Gabbec 21:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I will remove it. The English alphabet does not have it and in Spanish it is a separate letter. --Error 00:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Examples[edit]

From the article: "Unlike other uses of diacritics by alphabets which contain this symbol (such as ü in Astur-Leonese or â in Tagalog), in Spanish Ñ is considered a letter in its own right, with its own name (eñe) and its own place in the alphabet (after N)."

Shouldn't the examples be of words using other letters with the tilde over them, such as Portuguese São? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.139.153 (talk) 15:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

== Ñ not

Closing[edit]

From my point of view, this article is now neutral. It clearly relates the problem of changing a ñ to a n, but without claiming that to do so is indiscriminately wrong or correct. I see no reason to have a POV tag on it, so I think we should remove it. Please discuss if you disagree. --Norwaystudent 11:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's still hugely Spanish-centric. You can remove the POV tag, but keep the {{globalize}}.
Also:
Anglicism has been considered by some Spanish speakers to be an undesirable form of language contamination, who argue that with advances such as Unicode there is no typographical reason to "misspell" a loan word by replacing the ñ with a different one.
looks like original research, and is incorrect anyway. Computers have been able to use ñ since long before Unicode. There are reasons why people would want to anglicize things besides technological limitations. --Ptcamn 12:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I would remove the entire argument about Unicode, because it's doubly wrong. On one hand, as you say, it has been possible to use the ñ since way before Unicode (even in the IBM PC character set). On the other hand, despite this, and despite Unicode, in the real world there are still way too many government and business systems and databases that don't handle the ñ or don't want to. These systems tend to be decades behind... Heck, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the problem still exists in Spanish-speaking countries (however, it was more common to transliterate Peña into something like Pe#a rather than Pena). ;-) Itub 17:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree it reads much better now, though the sentence "Such personal decisions can be perceived by the Spanish community as denying identity and heritage." (referring to the dropping of the ~ above the n) still lacks a source, and should be slapped with a "citation needed" until that time. Otherwise it's just the writer's opinion, which is not enough. Wikipedia is as we all should know by now not about stating "what everybody knows", it's about reproducing verifiable facts and sourced claims. 195.24.29.51 08:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The new picture[edit]

User:Cevlakohn put a new picture (Image:Ntildeexample2.PNG). I don't see the point in using the most obscure language possible as an example. There are 3000-4000 Panare speakers, according to the wikipedia article (I had never heard of the language). There are 400 million speakers of Spanish, so I think a Spanish example would be more representative. Also, if there are concerns about "global perspective", Spanish happens to be the only truly global language among those who use the ñ. Another alternative is to just put a picture of the letter with no sample word if you are concerned about "Spanish-centricity". Itub 18:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

As I said above, IMO we should use a word which has been loaned into English, this being the English wikipedia. --Ptcamn 18:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd be happy with "piñata". Itub 19:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Should be in Spanish, it's the only global language that uses this letter, and piñata is not an english word, but a spanish word, every word with a Ñ in english is not english but spanish, so if you use piñata it's spanish anyway.
You use a strange and nonstandard definition of "English". --Ptcamn 06:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Piñata is fine, it's a lot better than yu'kïtiñe, which is never even given the meaning on the page. How about sueño? It means dream and sleepiness. Or we can try jalapeño, which is a Spanish word that has been borrowed into the English language. --flamma 15:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The other picture[edit]

Why do we use the photo of a dirty keyboard when the spanish-language template has a picture of a nice, clean keyboard? Is there any good reason why we should keep the current one over this other one? --200.44.7.192 04:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind if you change it, in fact I encourage it. The photo on the Spanish language page is more pleasing. --flamma 15:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The dirt in on the camera lens, not the keyboard. But OK. 59.101.215.205 11:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The name of the letter?[edit]

Is this letter called an eñe? How does one pronounce eñe? 74.136.88.231 03:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

In Spanish it is called "eñe" and it's pronounced en-yeh.--flamma 19:26, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Due to the way Spanish splits words into syllables, it is actually pronounced e-nyeh, if that's what you meant with the hyphen. Helios 23:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I like yours much better. --flamma 06:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation[edit]

From the article: "It is most famously used in Spanish alphabet, where it represents a palatal nasal (IPA: [ɲ]), reminiscent of as /nj/ as in "onion" IPA: [ˈʌnjən], but not exactly the same."

Then how is it pronounced? The only difference I can see is that, in onion, the [n] and [j] sounds occur in different syllables, whereas the [ɲ] is all supposed to occur in one syllable. 207.69.139.153 15:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I say the letter like "en-yay". -Indolences 21:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

See palatal nasal. The /ɲ/ is one sound, not two.

How is the glyph (letter) prounounced in the Spanish alphabet? That's what I came here looking for. In English, the letter 'm' is spelled and pronounced 'em.' Is the Spanish spelling for the letter 'ñ' 'eñe' or is it 'enñe' ? David.daileyatsrudotedu (talk) 14:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the consonant cluster /nj/ can be allophonically realised as [ɲ] by some English speakers. However, since it's not an independent phoneme in English, I'm not convinced that this description helps them to get the sound right. It seems to me that most just keep saying "ny" ("pinyata", "pinya calahda", "halapenyo", etc.) FilipeS 11:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

also what?[edit]

"In Spanish and some other languages (for example Aragonese, Asturian, Aymara, Quechua, Guaraní, Tagalog, Basque, Galician, Tetum) whose orthographies were created under Spanish influence, it also represents the palatal nasal."

My guess this was meant to mean "it's also used in those languages", but that's not how it parses. I propose removing the word also from the sentence. 195.24.29.51 07:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

IN CATALAN THE LETTER "Ñ" IS NOT USED!!! I'M CATALAN AND KNOW YOU KNOW IT STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH...SO PLEASE CHANGE IT!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catalaalatac (talkcontribs) 19:20, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Galician's Ñ does not come from Spanish influence, there's written evidence of its existence in the "foro do bo burgo de Castro Caldelas", written in 1228. 89.131.118.39 (talk) 13:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

other languages[edit]

Ñ as an alternative pronunciation of N also exists in Greek, mainly in some dialects of Greek. and in these dialects it's not always used instead of N. of course not as a part of the alphabet or anything.. that is true but i don't think i can have any source for that. i dunno if you can tell it's there for example>

with Ñ >>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ell-nixta.ogg

with regular N >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ell-nychta.ogg btw nychta means night. the regular N is far more used though CuteHappyBrute (talk) 04:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I have seen that ñ is also present in Breton language, if somebody could complete this...--Jorge.maturana (talk) 12:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

How to reach the page[edit]

If you don't have a keyboard with the ñ or don't know the code (like ALT + 0241) it's very hard to reach this page. Because the "~ + n" doesn't work in the wikipedia searchbar. I got here through the page about the letter "n" under "See also". Not to add to the "n or ñ" discussion, but is it maybe a good idea to add a disambiguation/referral page to the word "ene" (for people who know the name eñe) and the letter "n"? 82.169.112.106 (talk) 21:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I see it has been done, or I missed it before ^_^ 82.169.112.106 (talk) 16:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

%C3%B1 for ñ ?[edit]

Under Ubuntu GNU/Linux OS, when I copy and paste an url containing an ñ in it (not in the domain name but in some sub pages), it becomes %C3%B1. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Cañada > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Ca%C3%B1ada , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piñata > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi%C3%B1ata . Another example: http://www.lastfm.com.tr/music/Señor+Coconut > http://www.lastfm.com.tr/music/Se%C3%B1or+Coconut . Does it have something to do with "Computer usage" section? Neophyrigian (talk) 13:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Please, read percent-encoding and UTF-8. And you are wrong, "may be replaced" is ambiguous. Should it mean that some specification allows to use ‹ñ› in URL interchangeable with ‹%F1›? That the suggested encoding of ‹ñ› is ‹%F1›? That ‹%F1› is known to be interpreted as ‹ñ› in some environments (which should be specified)? These 3 cases are not the same statement. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Actually that's the browser decorating the URL: some browsers (not all, I think) replace the %xx symbols in the URL with their UTF-8 representation, so when you click http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca%C3%B1a_%28vegetal%29 what you see is http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caña_(vegetal)138.100.74.81 (talk) 09:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

equivalent for Ñ[edit]

! hello ! -- if you need to write an Ñ in Spanish, and your computer hasnt the Ñ symbol, you can write NN (double N). I think it is OK, because it was written NN in ancient times.213.37.30.13 (talk) 14:59, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

There are lots of usual replacements for Ñ, including NY, NN, NH, GN, NI, N... None of them are correct (it's like replacing W with VV in English), but they're often used in situations in which non-ASCII is not allowed, such as variable names in programming, or mail accounts. 138.100.74.81 (talk) 08:37, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

History[edit]

The first written Ñ is in a XIII century galician archive, as you can see in the following file: http://www.consellodacultura.org/mediateca/pubs.pdf/doc_en_galego.pdf This archive is, also, the first galician written script. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.27.169.89 (talk) 21:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

in Turkmen[edit]

this letter or ñ is very common in Turkmen. It is worth adding but I do not know if there is something published, written about it in English. in turkmen it stands for -ng in English. even The fact that it is very common in Turkmen is not mentioned here let alone its usage. If someone knows something about this letter's usage share please and let us add. --Sir artur (talk) 20:35, 9 April 2016 (UTC)