Talk:1938 FIFA World Cup squads

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Cuba squad[edit]

The player Carlos Oliveira, is known better as Carlos Maquina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.121.245.190 (talk) 22:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Hungary squad[edit]

According to my knowledge, there was no player called Dániel Bíró in the Hungarian squad in 1938. There was a player though, who's name was Dani Bíró, and Dani is usually the nickname for Dániel, but not in this case. Dani Bíró was Mihály Bíró II, a right winger from Ferencváros. I will look for some sources as well. --Gabute 12:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Dutch East Indies & Romania[edit]

No. Pos. Player Date of birth (age) Caps Club
- 3MF Bing Mo Heng 28 February 1913 Dutch East Indies Tiong Hoa Soerabaja
- 1GK Tan "Bing" Mo Heng 28 February 1913 Dutch East Indies HCTNH Malang

Are they the same person? Obviously yes, so Tan "Bing" Mo Heng was playing for Tiong Hoa Soerabaja or HCTNH? --necronudist 09:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

May be they are twin person Azmi 08:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.161.142.119 (talk)
They can't be, 'cause Bing and Tan are different surnames. And however many sources cite only one Mo Heng. --necronudist (talk) 09:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, you alright, the surnames for Chinese people is in the front, like Bing Mo Heng Azmi. 09:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.161.143.234 (talk)
No. Pos. Player Date of birth (age) Caps Club
- 4FW Miklós Nagy Romania Crişana Oradea

...or Nicule Nagy (and [1] and [2])... or Edmund Nagy? --necronudist 15:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I would be in favour of Miklós, as Nagy is a Hungarian surname and there is a large Hungarian community in Romania (which was even larger in 1938). - Darwinek 17:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Me, too. But usually we write the Romanian name and Miklos is Hungarian for Nicolae (maybe Nicule is a variant) and the Romanian National Team Archive says his name was Edmund. So, should we write Nicule or Edmund? --necronudist 18:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems like a larger confusion. I would leave it as it is and wait till someone else create that article. - Darwinek 19:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I think it was supposed to be Bing Mo Heng and another player Tan Mo Heng. The error might be the birth date I believe, the rest should be correct. There was a similar problem with Cuba but I guess someone took care of it. They left no sources though. There was a Carlos Olivera and a Carlos Maquina Oliveira or something like that. I believe the full name was actually Jose-Carlos or possibly Juan-Carlos. There are sources with one, the other , and both?! Libro0 02:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Please note that here is stated that Tan and Bing played both for Tiong Hoa Soerabaja, I keep thinking they were the same person... Unfortunately I haven't any paper source. I've searched something on the internet but...no luck. --necronudist 08:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I really think that they are two different players. One is always listed as GK and the other a sub. In fact there are a few interesting name variations that I have seen. Check here and follow that up with this and this. I have also seen the variation Moheng. Libro0 00:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you're right, but I think it would be better to investigate. Unfortunately there aren't many sources about Dutch East Indies WC adventure. Another little thing: here is said that On 1938 on the name of Dutch East Indies , NIVU send a team to 1938 World Cup, but the players are from NIVU not from PSSI even there is 9 Indonesian/Tionghoa players, so I understand that 9 players were playing for Tiong Hoa Soerabaja, but here I see only 3, here instead they're 7... Dutch East Indies are really a problem :-\ --necronudist 09:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

He is mentioned twice as Bing Moheng in Politik dan sepak bola di Jawa, by Srie Agustina Palupi. Libro0 (talk) 03:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

So, they're one single person? --necronudist (talk) 14:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't answer that, aside from the spelling of the name there is really no mention of the 1938 team and the other players. The book dealt primarily with the administrative aspect of soccer in Java from 1920-1942. Plenty of great info, just not for this article. Libro0 (talk) 03:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I understand! Thanks for the info!--necronudist (talk) 13:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
No. Pos. Player Date of birth (age) Caps Club
- 3MF Sutan Anwar 21 March 1914 Dutch East Indies Vios Batavia
* 4FW Beuzekom L.N.
- 3MF Bing Mo Heng 28 February 1913 Dutch East Indies Tiong Hoa Soerabaja
- Dorst
- 3MF G.H.V.L. Faulhaber Dutch East Indies Djocoja
- 1GK J. Harting
- 2DF Frans G. Hu Kon 1917 Dutch East Indies Sparta Batavia
* 2DF J. Kolle
- 3MF Frans Alfred Meeng 1914 Dutch East Indies SVB Batavia
- 3MF Achmad Nawir 1911 Dutch East Indies HBS Soerabaja
- 4FW Isaak "Tjaak" Pattiwael 23 February 1914 Dutch East Indies Jong Ambon Batavia
- 2DF Jack Sanniels Dutch East Indies Excelsior Soerabaja
- 4FW Suvarte Soedarmadji 06 December 1915 Dutch East Indies HBS Soerabaja
- 4FW M.J. Hans Taihuttu 1909 Dutch East Indies Jong Ambon Batavia
- 4FW Tan Hong Djien 12 January 1916 Dutch East Indies Tiong Hoa Soerabaja
- 1GK Tan "Bing" Mo Heng 28 February 1913 Dutch East Indies HCTNH Malang
- 4FW Tan See Han Dutch East Indies Tiong Hoa Soerabaja
- 4FW Teilherber Dutch East Indies Djocoja
- 4FW R. Telwe Dutch East Indies HBS Soerabaja
- 3MF G. Van Den Burgh Dutch East Indies SVV Semerang
- 4FW Hendrikus V. "Henk" Zomers Dutch East Indies Hercules Batavia

, where is the source? Azmi 08:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I really don't know but I think it's something like Ionescu's books. Are you Indonesian? Do you know something more? I think this list is full of errors, but DEI World Cup experience is the hardest to clear... --necronudist (talk) 09:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

All I know is I got it from an Indonesian whose email no longer works. So unfortunately I cannot verify his source. All the DEI books from that period talk about anything but this team!? The main reason is NIVB later NIVU violated the gentleman's agreement with PSSI. In that period PSSI was expanding and PSSI selections were becoming very competitive against NIVU selections. NIVU is seen as the colonial organization while PSSI was the symbol of the nationalist movement. They were supposed to play-off for representation or share selection but that did not happen therefore the 1938 experience is not celebrated and largely undocumented. Libro0 (talk) 03:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Necronudist question i've answerred. Yeah, i am Indonesian, so i cannot sepaking English. But for Libro0, where is that website? Maybe, just looking in Google, and type PSSI. Let me check Azmi 09:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe, please look this link, i just didn't know how was the source Azmi 09:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I already linked that site above:
Maybe you're right, but I think it would be better to investigate. Unfortunately there aren't many sources about Dutch East Indies WC adventure. Another little thing: here is said that On 1938 on the name of Dutch East Indies , NIVU send a team to 1938 World Cup, but the players are from NIVU not from PSSI even there is 9 Indonesian/Tionghoa players, so I understand that 9 players were playing for Tiong Hoa Soerabaja, but here I see only 3, here instead they're 7... Dutch East Indies are really a problem :-\ --necronudist 09:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
However, I don't understand why there is this enormous lack of infos about DEI expedition. PSSI seems to know less than us... --necronudist (talk) 10:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually the information I got is from a book that I listed above. Here it is again- Politik dan sepak bola di Jawa, by Srie Agustina Palupi. The internet is a good starting point but I strongly prefer books and newspapers which is why I spend most of my time researching and not editing. Anyway I am still looking through old DEI soccer publications...Libro0 (talk) 03:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Great job Libro0! Hope you'll find something. --necronudist (talk) 09:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I just think that wasn't a PSSI squad, but, NIVU squad Azmi1995 04:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I mentioned above how attitudes were regarding colonialism and nationalism. I have noticed in the newspaper 'Pewarta Deli' from 1938 that the team is never called Hindi Belanda(DEI) but is always called Indonesia. Libro0 (talk) 18:11, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

According to the paper there were only two goalkeepers, Mo Heng and Van Beusekom. Harting is shown as a defender. I have two newspapers(Pewarta and Sinar) and several months of each to go through and clarify everything. Libro0 (talk) 18:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Look what I found: in an Asian forum there's a little summary about the DEI adventure at the World Cup (I've found the same text in an Indonesian blog, so I think they're taken from a contemporary magazine/research). Starting from the word Catatan (notes), here's the translation:

  • 1) The latest researches revealed that Samuels and Teilherber joined the team, not Kolle and van Beusekom like often reported. That's because Indonesia made two changes [at the roster] but didn't change the official list that still had Kolle and van Beusekom names.
  • 2) Many early publications report the player "Djudju" in the midfield versus Hungary. Probably this is one-of-the-players' nickname.
  • 3) Tjaak (Pattiwael) rather strange. Probably it was Sjaak.

What do you think? If van Beusekom and Kolle didn't take part at the tournament, so they would have had only two goalkeepers...that fits! Sorry for the question but...where did you find those newspapers? Really interesting! You're a great researcher. --necronudist (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that can also be found at the PSSI site. From what I have gone through to this point it appears that there is no Kolle and no Dorst. Van Beusekom looks like the backup keeper to Mo Heng. As for Mo Heng the GK for Malang is present but the other Mo Heng is not. The other problem is with translating. It all depends on who wrote these things and where. There are numerous islands and several ethnic groups(Dutch, Indonesian, Tionghoa(Chinese), etc. So not everything lines up. Libro0 (talk) 23:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I have acquired a book of player biographies from Srie Agustina Palupi who is the author of the book I mentioned above. While plenty of information is given for several of the players on the World Cup squad I am disappointed to see that the author of these biographies has also chosen to use initials instead of full names in many cases. In fact the author himself does not reveal his full name--- J. Jacoeb. The book is called Bintang Bintang Lanpangan Hidjau. Libro0 (talk) 18:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

The source immediately above confirms the name Bing Mo Heng and says he was the starting GK with Beuzekom as the backup GK. Bing played for Malang as early as 1934 where his name became popular following a stellar performance against Grazer of Austria. I have seen no mention of a Tan Mo Heng. Also the player Dorst is listed as a DF. Libro0 (talk) 23:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Great!! --necronudist (talk) 09:19, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Coloman Braun-Bogdan[edit]

An Italian newspaper of the 1938 reports that "Dobra" was called up, and there's no mention of Braun-Bogdan. Maybe he was called up later to substitute Dobra... Anyone knows anything more? --necronudist (talk) 11:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC)